2 Thess 2

[Ed Edwards]

Grasshopper: // ... What Ed failed to tell us is though the Geneva Bible called it a departure they also told us their interpretation:

The apostle foretells that before the coming of the Lord, there will be a throne set up completely contrary to Christ's glory, in which that wicked man will sit, and transfer all things that appertain to God to himself: and many will fall away from God to him.//

Show me. Where does the Geneva Bible folk say that?
Which book, which edition, which page? I want to look at the
information independent of Grasshopper to see if you are shooting
straight.

Ah, I found it at: //www.reformed.org/documents/geneva/2thessalonians.html//

So in 1599 they write this comments.
In 1587 (or was the main translation itself earlier?)
they said:

2Th 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our assembling vnto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde,
nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde,
nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,

In the above scripture bolding denotes the
comming of our Lord Jesus Christ;
large letters denotethe gathering of the Church Age
Saints (AKA: elect, born-again, bride of Christ,
body of Christ, regenerated, etc.)

The rest of chapter 2 concerns the events
between the gathering (i.e. Rapture/Resurrection)
and the Second Coming of Christ in power
and jugement: to destroy
the Antichrist and set up the Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom.

 

[skypair]

Heres what I believe

leaning toward pre trib but not 100% sure

believe if its is pre trib the Holy Spirit will be here

not sure who will be taken out of the way because the Bible doesn't say for sure.

Don't believe the part about Gentiles having to change to judaism.

I Know I'm saved!:jesus:


Got you off calvinism for a while:laugh: :laugh:

Thank You again, love you all

That you did! Fighting about rapture timing is much more fun!

The main proof that the Holy Spirit is here despite not indwelling believers is the OT, jim. He didn't indwell then either. And this is why we talk about the trib as the 70th week of Daniel -- the 70th of the same kind of salvation as the other 69!

And here's how the Spirit works -- through the word of God 1) in the Bible (Mt 24:14), 2) preached by the 2 witnesses (Rev 11), and 3) preached by angels in earth's atmosphere (Rev 14)!!

Who is the "restrainer?" There are some pretty silly theories out there -- like Michael, the guardian angel of ISRAEL! What does Israel have to do with releasing the AC?? At the beginning of the trib, Michael is sitting down and AC is revealed. At midtrib, AC attacks Israel and Michael stands up for his people. BUt this happens just as AC is establishing world political, economic, and religious hegemony! (Hint: Michael rises and pretects the 144,000).

Glad you are hearing this. Just wish if you are having questions that you would jump in more frequently so we could squash the false teaching while it is still slithering on the floor. :laugh:

skypair

 

[EdSutton]

To call “apostasia” departure is not Johnny come lately. But to call it the rapture is. What Ed failed to tell us is though the Geneva Bible called it a departure they also told us their interpretation:

Again, you and Ed’s definition makes the apostasy of the Church a good thing.

The context of the “falling away is in verse 2:

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Again from the Geneva Bible notes:

“We must take heed of false prophets, especially in this matter, who go about to deceive, and that for the most part, after three sorts: for either they brag of fake prophetical revelations, or they bring conjectures and reasons of their own, or use counterfeit writings.”

So again the context of the “falling away” is false teachings, not the rapture. So the Geneva Bible that Ed quotes confirms the normal, and I believe exclusive, definition of apostasy.

Huh? The actual word supports “rapture”? The context is clear.

Ed I must admit your creative ability to distort scripture is quite humorous. So the Thessalonians were looking forward to death as their relief.

So you think The Thessalonians looked upon the stoning of them by the Jews as the promise Paul had in mind?

I think John Gill has it right:

“and the Jews, who were now the only and the implacable persecutors of the saints, in a short time had the wrath of God come upon them to the uttermost, even upon their nation, city, and temple, upon their persons and property.”

None, its your bizarre interpretations I have the problems with. Depart from what Ed? Planet earth? Or from the faith that the false teachers are challenging?

So you are going to apostate.

FTR, I don't recall ever calling apostasy "a good thing". Even though Scripture says that there "must be- well let Scripture speak here -

18 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it. 19 For there must also be factions (heresies - KJV) among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you. 20 (I Cor. 11- 18-20 - NKJV)

So heresies (and apostasy) actually serve to illuminate the truth, as I read it, but I did not say that 'apostasy' is a "good thing", per se.

What is bizarre, here, is what appears to be the subtle and misleading attempt, on the linkpage, to 'elevate' the notes of someone or someone's commentary to the near status of 'text', as the Geneva Bible was not originally translated and published with all these commentary notes. Some textual notes, maybe, as were and are most versions.

But the Geneva Bible was not a 'Scofield', 'Thompson Chain' or 'Zondervan NASB', when published, however someone or some group did, in fact, put forth a Study Bible in 1599, with the text of the Geneva Bible. Hence the notes are necessarily no better, nor necesarily no worse, than any of the above mentioned Study Bibles, and are to be taken as such, IMO.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Glad you are hearing this. Just wish if you are having questions that you would jump in more frequently so we could squash the false teaching while it is still slithering on the floor. :laugh:

skypair

Speaking of "slithering on the floor", check out my post, and the link, in current events, on "the friendly skies" about "Snakes on an Airplane, in Real life". :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[dwmoeller1]

Who is the "restrainer?" There are some pretty silly theories out there -- like Michael, the guardian angel of ISRAEL! What does Israel have to do with releasing the AC??

Wouldn't you agree that the appearance of the AC is the start of major woes for the nation of Israel? If so, why do you ask what Israel has to do with the releasing of the AC? If one of the ACs main goals is to destroy Israel, then who more likely to restrain his coming than the angel who protects Israel? I am not seeing the difficulty here.

 

[npetreley]

Wouldn't you agree that the appearance of the AC is the start of major woes for the nation of Israel? If so, why do you ask what Israel has to do with the releasing of the AC? If one of the ACs main goals is to destroy Israel, then who more likely to restrain his coming than the angel who protects Israel? I am not seeing the difficulty here.

The great tribulation is also referred to as the "time of Jacob's trouble". That should communicate something about the focus of the great tribulation.

 

[skypair]

Wouldn't you agree that the appearance of the AC is the start of major woes for the nation of Israel? If so, why do you ask what Israel has to do with the releasing of the AC? If one of the ACs main goals is to destroy Israel, then who more likely to restrain his coming than the angel who protects Israel? I am not seeing the difficulty here.

The problem is that the AC appears helping Israel, not confronting her. AC's first act is to "confirm the covenant with many for one week." Dan 9:27 At first, he even let's them/helps them rebuild their temple -- just like Israel expects Messiah to do!

This event is such a huge "sign" of AC that many passages speak of it -- Isa 28:15, Dan 9:27, Zech 11:7, 1Thes 5:3, Rev 6:2. But Michael does not restrain this "Wicked" or "lawless one" from being revealed. Michael doesn't "stand up" until midtrib, Dan 12:1. And Rev 12:7-8 tells us what he does then -- he casts Satan and his angels out of heaven. Nothing to do with restraining earthly events. This is the "woe ... for the devil is come down to you having great wrath!" (12:12) IOW, Satan wasn't being "restrained" in heaven -- that is where Satan chose to be.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

The great tribulation is also referred to as the "time of Jacob's trouble". That should communicate something about the focus of the great tribulation.

_____________________________________________________________

I like your comments as they support the Post-Trib view of the Rapture!
I recently have seen the bigger picture as to the purpose of the great
tribulation which requires Believers to be here to "provoke the Jews to
jealousy" in preparation of their acceptance of Messiah!! Have you seen
this purpose yet as it relates to saving ALL of Israel?!!! Rom.11:11.

This new idea is pertinent to the necessity for "some" Christians to be here to "taste death after they see the Son of Man coming in Kingdom
Power" for 1260 days! I'm sure you have noted that Jesus said "some
standing (t)here" applies only to when He is "about to come in glory"!!
Matt.16:27 says He is "About to come in glory' and Matt.16:28;Mark 9:1
show "they will not taste death, by any means, until they see Him
having come in Kingdom POWER" for 1260 days thru the Two Witnesses!!! Rev.12:10-11; Rev.11:3-7.

Mel

 

[dwmoeller1]

The problem is that the AC appears helping Israel, not confronting her. AC's first act is to "confirm the covenant with many for one week." Dan 9:27 At first, he even let's them/helps them rebuild their temple -- just like Israel expects Messiah to do!

But wouldn't you agree that this is simply a big deception and that the AC *never* has Israel's good in mind but only seeks to more effectively harm them? If so, then my point remains.

This event is such a huge "sign" of AC that many passages speak of it -- Isa 28:15, Dan 9:27, Zech 11:7, 1Thes 5:3, Rev 6:2. But Michael does not restrain this "Wicked" or "lawless one" from being revealed. Michael doesn't "stand up" until midtrib, Dan 12:1. And Rev 12:7-8 tells us what he does then -- he casts Satan and his angels out of heaven. Nothing to do with restraining earthly events. This is the "woe ... for the devil is come down to you having great wrath!" (12:12) IOW, Satan wasn't being "restrained" in heaven -- that is where Satan chose to be.

I don't follow your logic here.

 

[Grasshopper]

FTR, I don't recall ever calling apostasy "a good thing".

If falling away (apostasy) is the departure of the Church, then it is a good thing is it not?

What is bizarre, here, is what appears to be the subtle and misleading attempt, on the linkpage, to 'elevate' the notes of someone or someone's commentary to the near status of 'text', as the Geneva Bible was not originally translated and published with all these commentary notes.

Nice try. Ed brought up the point that the Geneva Bible used the word “departure” seemingly to try to insinuate that it meant rapture. I pointed out using the very notes of the Bible that it was not how the Reformers saw it.

Hence the notes are necessarily no better, nor necesarily no worse, than any of the above mentioned Study Bibles, and are to be taken as such, IMO.

Fine. So the fact that it translates apostasy as departure is irrelevant to Ed's view. It is the context of how it is used that matters.

 

[Mel Miller]

Quote from Ed Edwards:
If falling away (apostasy) is the departure of the Church, then it is a good thing is it not?
______________________________________________________________
Nice try. Ed brought up the point that the Geneva Bible used the word “departure” seemingly to try to insinuate that it meant rapture. I pointed out using the very notes of the Bible that it was not how the Reformers saw it.

Fine. So the fact that it translates apostasy as departure is irrelevant to Ed's view. It is the context of how it is used that matters.

_____________________________________________________________

EE has a special aptness for "insinuating" the very opposite meaning to
what the text and context presents!

By assuming the "departure" refers to the TRUE church instead of the
false church, he misses the scriptural reason for the coming "judgment that must begin with God's household" when God uses the Ten Kings to remove the Harlot Woman "out of the midst" of human government!!
I Pet.4:17; 2 Thess.2:7 (ek mesou genaytai; "out of the midst it comes" so that the Lawless One may be revealed).

Again, by assuming Jesus' promise to "gather the Elect from earth to the sky" has refererence to a Pre-Trib Rapture, he declares without hesitation that the context regarding the Rapture "in the days AFTER the great tribulation" actually means "BEFORE the tribulation"!!! Mark 13:24,27.

EE makes evil to mean "good" and after to mean "before" with no care
or guilt about murdering the hermeneutical principle to interpret truth
in the light of the commonly accepted meaning of English words.

Mel

 

[Ed Edwards]

Grasshopper: //Fine. So the fact that it translates apostasy
as departure is irrelevant to Ed's view. It is the context
of how it is used that matters.//

I already showed by context, that 'apostasy' (AKA: departure)
is talking about the departure of the Church Age
saints from the earth at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

(See post #41 which for me is on page 5):

2 Th 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ,
and by our assembling vnto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from your minde,
nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by worde,
nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come,
except there come a departing first,
and that that man of sinne be disclosed,
euen the sonne of perdition,

In the above scripture bolding denotes the
comming of our Lord Jesus Christ;
large letters denote the gathering of the Church Age
Saints (AKA: elect, born-again, bride of Christ,
body of Christ, regenerated, etc.)

Yep, I've show by the context of 2 Thess 2:1-3
that departing = the gathering together of the saints.
It is the context of how it is used in the Bible that matters.

 

[skypair]

But wouldn't you agree that this is simply a big deception and that the AC *never* has Israel's good in mind but only seeks to more effectively harm them? If so, then my point remains.

I'm not sure I agree. I think that man of sin comes in having been ridden by the harlot of his religion pretrib. I think he's a "mr. niceguy" (charming, well-spoken, coming in with flatteries) at the beginning which, among democracies is a good thing if you want to rise to the top. His real coup will be the peace in the MidEast. Afterward he consolidates his kingdom of 10 kings.

I don't follow your logic here.

Is the MidEast peace a huge sign of AC or not? Think now -- "when they shall say peace and safety. destruction as travail. What comes of that travail/tribulation? Resurrected, reborn Israel -- Isa 66:8-10. Paul said, "then shall ALL Israel be saved." Rom11.

skypair

 

[Mel Miller]

"Is the MidEast peace a huge sign of AC or not? Think now -- `when they shall say peace and safety, destruction as travail'. What comes of that travail/ tribulation? Resurrected, reborn Israel -- Isa 66:8-10. Paul said, "then shall ALL Israel be saved." Rom.11. skypair
____________________________________________________________
skypair,

I submit that you have Israel "saved" at the wrong time from the Hour of Trial during which they (at the same time Believers are kept from/out of
that Hour) will be "KEPT ALIVE"! Luke 17:30-33.

Note, ALL the Jews will be "Kept Alive" on the "SAME Day" Christ appears
with ALL the Saints in glory and "bringing His rewards with Him"!! Luke 17:30; Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

You are looking for Messiah to give re-birth to Israel through "travail" all of
7 years before unbelievers say "peace and safety"!

They say this only when armies of the Beast proclaim their triumph after killing a third of mankind in one hour and after killing the Two Witnesses and leaving them dead in a street of Jerusalem for several days!!

They will celebrate victory over the infidels who refused to convert to Alah under their Jihad leading to the impending Armageddon catastrophe:
the real moment of "sudden destruction" and deliverance from travail!!!

Peace and safety? Jesus and Paul place the "suddenness of the Day of God's wrath" at the end of Israel's "travail" when they will embrace their Messiah and be "restored" at the head of the nations! They will ALL be
KEPT through the Hour of Trial after the 144,000 and one third of all Israel have been KEPT ALIVE during the Great Tribulation!! Not one of the chosen of Israel will be killed...because they will "know their redemption and kingdom are near and will beg to stand before the Son of Man"!!! Zech.13:8-9; Rom.11:25-26; Luke 21:28,31,36.

Mel

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mat 16:27 (KJV1611 Edition):
For the sonne of man shall come in the glory
of his father, with his Angels: and then
he shall reward euery man according to his works.

When the Lord Jesus comes in the Glory of God
the Father -- when he comes to get the Church Age
elect saints at the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection,
Then He shall reward all those saints for the
good they have done for the right reason.

When the Lord Jesus comes in the Glory of God
the Father -- when he comes to get the Jewish/Israeli
elect saints at the post-tribulation rapture/resurrection,
Then He shall reward all those saints for the
good they have done for the right reason.

When the Lord Jesus comes in the Glory of God
the Father -- when he comes to destroy the Antrchrist
and his works and set up the physical Millinnial
Messanic Kingdom -- then He shall
reward (well, a negative reward)
all those saints for the bad they have done.

 

[skypair]

I submit that you have Israel "saved" at the wrong time from the Hour of Trial during which they (at the same time Believers are kept from/out of that Hour) will be "KEPT ALIVE"! Luke 17:30-33.

Note, ALL the Jews will be "Kept Alive" on the "SAME Day" Christ appears
with ALL the Saints in glory and "bringing His rewards with Him"!! Luke 17:30; Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

As your reply admits, mel, nobody is going to be saying "peace and safety" at the outset of a war -- and especially not one with heaven.

But let's compare the "days," shall we? Pretrib -- "everything continues as it has, where is the sign of His coming?" I'd call that "peace and safety," wouldn't you?

Now the other view, postrib -- the sky is still dark (Mt 24:29) ever since the 5th bowl (or maybe you are a "sixth seal man?" Well, there's a nuclear war just thereafter too -- trumpets 1-3). The Euphrates has dried up so that huge armies can mass around Jerusalem for the final battle. "Peace and safety?" I don't think so! :laugh: Rescue of "all Israel?" Jesus is on the way! You bet!

You are looking for Messiah to give re-birth to Israel through "travail" all of
7 years before unbelievers say "peace and safety"!

Since Isaiah said that the covenant would be "with Death and hell," I can only suggest it won't be pretty before it is "disannulled" either.

They say this only when armies of the Beast proclaim their triumph after killing a third of mankind in one hour and after killing the Two Witnesses and leaving them dead in a street of Jerusalem for several days!!

See, you've misplaced that celebration, mel. That's midtrib -- AOD time. Before that, the 2 witnesses resisted anyone who would threaten the temple.

Peace and safety? Jesus and Paul place the "suddenness of the Day of God's wrath" at the end of Israel's "travail" when they will embrace their Messiah and be "restored" at the head of the nations!

Quite true of Israel -- NOT true of the church. As you yourself admit, Israel is to be head of all nations. That would have the "firstborn" of Messiah's kingdom being displaced by the secondborn.

They will ALL be KEPT through the Hour of Trial after the 144,000 and one third of all Israel have been KEPT ALIVE during the Great Tribulation!! Not one of the chosen of Israel will be killed...because they will "know their redemption and kingdom are near and will beg to stand before the Son of Man"!!! Zech.13:8-9; Rom.11:25-26; Luke 21:28,31,36.

AMEN! Again, not sure about the "begging" part. :laugh: And what you seem to see as rapture is the resurrection of the OT saints to Christ/Messiah -- that makes "ALL Israel" being saved in that day.

skypair

 

[Grasshopper]

Mat 16:27 (KJV1611 Edition):
For the sonne of man shall come in the glory
of his father, with his Angels: and then
he shall reward euery man according to his works.

When the Lord Jesus comes in the Glory of God
the Father -- when he comes to get the Church Age
elect saints at the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection,
Then He shall reward all those saints for the
good they have done for the right reason.

Even in the 1611 edition it tells us when this was to happen:

Mat 16:28 Uerely I say vnto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Sonne of man comming in his Kingdome.

 

[johnp.]

Just an aside:

Then He shall reward all those saints for the
good they have done for the right reason.

...we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10.

We will be rewarded for the things God worked through us.

...then He shall
reward (well, a negative reward)
all those saints for the bad they have done.

We will be rewarded for the things God worked through us. Or not.

when he comes to destroy the Antrchrist
and his works and set up the physical Millinnial
Messanic Kingdom

MT 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
MT 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

john.

 

[Mel Miller]

Skypair offers no evidence for claiming the Two Witnesses die at Mid-Trib:

Quote by Mel:
“They say peace and safety only when armies of the Beast proclaim their triumph after killing a third of mankind in one hour and the Beast kills the Two Witnesses and leaves them dead in a street of Jerusalem for several days”!
According to skypair:
“See, you've misplaced that celebration, Mel. That's Mid-trib -- Abomination Of Desolation time. Before that, the 2 witnesses resisted anyone who would threaten the temple”.
Mel responds:
The Two Prophets rise up on the LAST DAY; on “one of the days whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound that `God’s wrath has come’”!
Revelation includes the Two Prophets among those whom Jesus will “raise up on the Last Day”! “The Mystery of God was finished” prior to the Last Day…in the days whenever the 7th Trump is about to sound”!! The Last Day occurs during or “after” the 3½ days the Two Witnesses lie dead in Jerusalem!!! Rev.11:11.
They rise up before the (Last) Trump on the Last Day; before “God’s wrath has come”! The Last Trump is the “appointed time to judge the dead”… requiring the Resurrection of every Believer on the Last Day!! The Last Trump is the “appointed (kairos) time" to Resurrect and Reward the Prophets and Saints and all who fear God, small and great!!! Rev.10:6-7; 11:11,18.

Mel’s challenge to skypair:

You substitute the wrong timing for Unbelievers to be saying “Peace and Safety”! Jesus limits the “suddenness of the calamity coming on all of earth’s inhabitants” to the Day He Appears!! Luke 21:34-35. The world will be in a state of celebrating the deaths of the Two Witnesses (after the 1260 Endtime days are finished)… saying “peace and safety” because their armies have already invaded Israel; before
the Last Trump sounds the time has come for “all those who are destroying the earth will be destroyed”!!! Rev.11:18.

I would appreciate some Scripture in place of your theoretical suppositions about the timing for the sun to turn dark and the whole moon to blood and there is a great
earthquake! This occurs at Seal Six; not in the 5th Bowl as you assume. All 7 Bowls must empty their plagues before anyone is allowed to enter the Temple in heaven. Rev.15:8.

I find that you continuously fail to reference Scripture!!!
Mel

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mel Miller: //Skypair offers no evidence for claiming
the Two Witnesses die at Mid-Trib://

Actually Skypair 'proves' it relative to this statement:

Mel Miller: //Revelation includes the Two Prophets among
those whom Jesus will “raise up on the Last Day”! //

Skypair does offer evidence - convincing evidence:

Skypair: //That's Mid-trib -- Abomination Of Desolation time.
Before that, the 2 witnesses resisted anyone who
would threaten the temple”.//

For the Antichrist to get into the Temple to commit the
Abomination of Desolation, the 2 witnesses have to be
taken out of the way.

Here is my list of events that probably will happen during
the Midtribulation Crises:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8 )
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18 )
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I also suspect that at 2C4: Resurrection of the AC
is when Satan indwells the Antichrist. Only then
can the Antichrist overcome the two witnesses
and slay them.