2 Thessalonians 2:13 Cannot be denied or rewritten

[Van]

Here is a study based on grammar and context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 is a compound sentence, with subjects, verbs, direct and indirect objects.

We should always give thanks to God for you as beloved by the Lord.
Subject, =We; Verb = should give thanks, direct object = God; indirect object for you the beloved.
We should give thanks to God for you as our siblings in Christ!
Why?
Because God has chosen you.
Subject = God; Verb = has chosen; direct object = you.

The remaining phrases are indirect objects describing aspects of the action upon the recipient.

When was the action of choosing performed? From the beginning of the New Covenant. No one was set apart into Christ's spiritual body before Christ died on the cross.
What was the purpose of the choice? For salvation

Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation? Answer, no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died. Recall Abraham's bosom, and Jesus declaring no one, not one OT saint, had gone up to Heaven before He came to earth.

What were the instrumental factors? Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Election was accomplished by transferring the person from the realm of darkness into Christ.
The basis of the choice was God crediting the faith of the individual as righteousness.

Thus we were NOT saved because of our faith, our faith only allowed God to credit it or not. Our faith did not deserve salvation or merit salvation, the accreditation was a act of mercy and grace. Salvation does NOT depend upon the person who wills, but upon God who has mercy. Romans 9:16

Not to put too fine a point on it, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 clearly teaches certain beliefs from the dark ages are false.

First, rather than Unconditional Election, scripture teaches we were chosen through faith in the truth, thus a conditional election.

Next, to be individually chosen through faith in the truth means we had come to faith BEFORE we were chosen, therefore during our physical lifetime after we had heard and learned from the Father, and NOT before we were created.

But what about Ephesians 1:4 which says we were chosen before the foundation of the world? Since as individuals we were "drawn" by the Father before we came to Christ, we were not chosen before we were drawn. Because we once were "not a people" we were not chosen to be a people before we lived as not a people. Because once we had not "received mercy" we were not individually chosen before we lived having not received mercy. Because once we were children of wrath, we were not yet the chosen children of God, precluding being individually chosen before creation.

So just how were we chosen before the foundation of the world? Corporately! When God chose individually "Logos" to be His "Lamb of God," His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, He chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem. His gracious choice of our Redeemer before creation therefore granted us who are now in Christ grace from all eternity. Those who would be redeemed were to have a common trait, believers whose faith God would credit as righteousness.

 

[Van]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 Interpretive Translation

But we should always give thanks to God for you, siblings, beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood, for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit, setting the individual apart in Christ, and on the basis of their faith in the truth​

as credited by God as righteousness. ​

The insertions in italics reflect my understanding of the meaning of the vague words or phrases of the inspired text.

Note that God chose these individuals from or since the beginning, not "in" or "before" the beginning. Therefore this election to salvation differs from the one before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4. The effort by some to conflate the two is not an effort aimed at truth.

 

[canadyjd]

That poor dead horse

Peace to you

 

[Van]

LOL, this is a bible study thread, and all the posting Calvinists it seems are dead set against actually studying our verse.

They know "from the beginning" refers to the time period since the event indicated by the context, not just the event of creation, but not one seems able to acknowledge how God uses the phrase in scripture.

Anyway, we are supposed to study His word so on we go, riding our quest for truth.

Sanctification by the Spirit is how the NASB translates the phrase. Two possible interpretations can be made, one, the Spirit of God sets the individuals apart in Christ, or, two, the Spirit of God purifies them with the washing of regeneration. I think the first interpretation is correct because being set apart into Christ results in being purified with the blood of Christ.

This interpretation also applies to 1 Peter 1:2 where individuals are set apart in Christ for purification and obedience.

 

[Van]

Let us consider how "sanctification" is used in 1 Peter 1:2:

​

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. NASB ​

The verse is addressing those who have been and will be chosen according to His predetermined redemption plan, providing the means of being set apart by the Spirit into Christ for purification and obedience based on faith in the truth as credited by God.

The idea of purification is obvious, those placed into Christ undergo the washing of regeneration, and arise as born anew children of God. But just what is being said with the phrase "into obedience?" Here, I think the idea is as born anew believers we are to bring about obedience to Christ's will as His ambassadors with the ministry of reconciliation.

Another way of expressing the idea is bring about "faith's obedience" or our collective obedience to Christ, as we all strive to become more Christ-like and effective witnesses for Christ as His ambassadors.

 

[Dave G]

Why does "from the beginning" refer to "from the beginning of the New Covenant," and NOT from the beginning of creation?

As in the other recent thread, I don't see how it does.
To me, it refers to the exact same time frame that Paul told those who believed, in other places in God's word....

Before the foundation of the world.

 

[Dave G]

no one was chosen by being spiritually transferred into Christ before Christ died.

Sure they were.

In fact ( and I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself ), I've already been given that answer:
They were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, just as Ephesians 1 tells me:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ( Ephesians 1:3-6 ).

All of God's people, including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and all the prophets, were written in the Book of Life and predestinated by God the Father to their adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself...

Before the foundation of the world.

 

[Dave G]

Van,

I've read and understood these things out of the Scriptures for well over 20 years now, and it gets clearer to me every time that I go through His word.
No matter how many times I see the explanation given that "from the beginning" means "from the beginning of the New Testament in Christ's blood" or "from the beginning of the New Covenant", I know that there will be people who read the text for themselves, put together all the references to "from the beginning" / "from the foundation of the world" etc. and disagree with that explanation of it;
Including myself.

It's not personal, sir...
It's just that some of us do not see it the same way that you do.
What's more, I've found that asserting my own view of the Scriptures as the truth, is ultimately irrelevant...

If someone doesn't see the words and understand them ( for themselves ) the same way that I do, I cannot force them into it....
That would be wrong for me to do, as I believe that all of God's people must be allowed to worship Him in spirit and in truth....being taught "of" ( by or from ) God ( Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 6:45, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16, Hebrews 8:7-13, 1 John 2:20-27 ), not "of" men.

Doctrines are to be declared in a local assembly of God's people ( Titus 2 );
Outside of that, I have to let those who disagree with me, disagree with me.

That doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to offer up my own thoughts for consideration, especially on a forum like this...
It just means that if someone disagrees with me, then they disagree with me.

That said, these will be my only posts in this thread.


As always sir,
I wish you well and may God bless you in many ways.

 

[Van]

As in the other recent thread, I don't see how it does.
To me, it refers to the exact same time frame that Paul told those who believed, in other places in God's word....

Before the foundation of the world.

You Sir now claim from (since) means "before." There is nothing anyone can say to such an idiotic absurdity.

 

[Van]

Sure they were.

In fact ( and I'm not speaking for anyone other than myself ), I've already been given that answer:
They were chosen "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, just as Ephesians 1 tells me:

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. ( Ephesians 1:3-6 ).

All of God's people, including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David and all the prophets, were written in the Book of Life and predestinated by God the Father to their adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself...

Before the foundation of the world.

The verse does not say, foreseen individuals were chosen and transferred into the foreseen Christ to have their foreseen sins washed away. That is your time travel theology, an idiotic absurdity in light of other scriptures which you seem to ignore. Where was Logos before creation? In the abode of God. Heaven. If anyone was placed it Him, they would have been placed in Heaven. But you know no one ascended to heaven before Logos became incarnate. So you ignore John 3:13. You know that every believer once was not a people who had not received mercy, yet you claim before they were created they were mercifully chosen as a people for God's own possession. So you ignore 1 Peter 2:9-10. I could go on and on but to what point, as you deny dozens of verses in your effort to defend obviously false doctrines from the dark ages.

 

[th1bill]

Anyone studying Matt. 27 knows the OP is poppycock because the Old Testament Saints that had been in Paradise marched through the Holy City, on their way to Heaven.

 

[Van]

Anyone studying Matt. 27 knows the OP is poppycock because the Old Testament Saints that had been in Paradise marched through the Holy City, on their way to Heaven.

Your post is poppycock because Matthew 27 does not mention Old Testament Saints, Paradise, marching or the Holy City.

Matthew 27:52 says the bodies of "saints" who had "fallen asleep" were raised. Were they Old Testament Saints, or people known by those living at the time in Jerusalem? Had they responded to Christ's gospel during the period of His public ministry? Probably. The idea, it seems to me, is they were believers who had died believing in Christ Jesus.

Did these "saints" appear in the Holy City, Jerusalem? Yes. Did they "march through the city? Not supported, thus just conjecture, reading into scripture what it does not say, or in a word, poppycock.

Any indication their physical bodies did not return to the grave? Nope. Scripture says when Christ returns, then He will physically raise our bodies. So after demonstrating the power of Christ's death, they probably ceased animation and were returned to the grave. Their human spirits, however, which departed these "demonstrators" of Christ's power, no doubt were given to Christ, washed with His blood, and were taken to Heaven.

 

[th1bill]

If I am guilty of reading into scripture, so we will both be found guilty, for neither does it designate them to be disciples and the faith of Abraham was counted for righteousness, making him one of the Saints in this parade. If I have misunderstood the teaching of Ruah in this matter, Yahovah will deal with me but, Bill Taylor, add nothing, nor will I subtract, I am a Holy Spirit fill child of Yehveh and I strive only with Him for knowledge. Poppycock? God forbid!

 

[Van]

If I am guilty of reading into scripture, so we will both be found guilty, for neither does it designate them to be disciples and the faith of Abraham was counted for righteousness, making him one of the Saints in this parade. If I have misunderstood the teaching of Ruah in this matter, Yahovah will deal with me but, Bill Taylor, add nothing, nor will I subtract, I am a Holy Spirit fill child of Yehveh and I strive only with Him for knowledge. Poppycock? God forbid!

Yes, both of us should desire that God forbid "Poppycock.

1) Does Matthew 27:52 "designate" the saints as Old Testament Saints? Nope so to make that claim is indeed poppycock.

2) Does Matthew 27:52 "designate" the saints as "believers" (disciples of Christ)? Yes. Basis: They had "fallen asleep" which suggests they had fallen asleep in Christ. and had fallen asleep as believers in Christ. See1 Corinthians 15:18 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14.

3) Does Matthew 27:52 "designate" the saints as having "the faith of Abraham? Yes see Romans 4:16, Abraham is the father of all "believers," as all believers have the faith (which God credited as righteousness) of Abraham. Therefore all believers have credited faith. To deny this is poppycock.

4) God uses broken or bent reeds, so even a bad example can be used by God for good.