2 Thessalonians 2:13 handled properly

[MennoSota]

Van, was Saul/Paul rich in faith when God chose him on the road to Damascus? Saul was rounding up Christians and killing them.

 

[Van]

Just when did Christ credit Paul's faith in Christ as righteousness? What does scripture say? No answer will be forthcoming. But scripture does imply an answer. Note also the effort to deny God chose Paul for salvation through faith in the truth, an effort to nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which was ... wait for it... written by Paul. No verse or passage is safe from the nullifiers.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Making excuses I see. Always an excuse for you to cling to a poor interpretation. Good night Van the one verse man.

He's not the one verse man.

There's Matthew 23:13, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and Romans 8:7, to go along with 2 Thessalonians 2:13. He messes up more than verse.

 

[Van]

Just when did Christ credit Paul's faith in Christ as righteousness? What does scripture say? No answer will be forthcoming. But scripture does imply an answer. Note also the effort to deny God chose Paul for salvation through faith in the truth, an effort to nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which was ... wait for it... written by Paul. No verse or passage is safe from the nullifiers.

Tick-tock... no answer will be forthcoming... tick-tock

For those actually interested in what scripture says, take a gander at Romans 4:24. Paul included himself (our sake) as one whose faith had been credited as righteousness. Before Paul traveled on the road to Damascus, Paul believed in God but not that Jesus had been raised from the dead and was the Messiah. Sometime after meeting the risen Christ on the road, and before God sent Ananias (about 3 days later) Paul had been chosen to be His apostle to the Gentiles. When Ananias laid hands on Paul, he was filled with the Holy Spirit, which demonstrates Paul's salvation. During that three day period, Paul had been in prayer, and had placed His faith in the truth.

 

[MennoSota]

Tick-tock... no answer will be forthcoming... tick-tock

For those actually interested in what scripture says, take a gander at Romans 4:24. Paul included himself (our sake) as one whose faith had been credited as righteousness. Before Paul traveled on the road to Damascus, Paul believed in God but not that Jesus had been raised from the dead and was the Messiah. Sometime after meeting the risen Christ on the road, and before God sent Ananias (about 3 days later) Paul had been chosen to be His apostle to the Gentiles. When Ananias laid hands on Paul, he was filled with the Holy Spirit, which demonstrates Paul's salvation. During that three day period, Paul had been in prayer, and had placed His faith in the truth.

Van the bad interpreter man Paul was adopted by God before he had faith just as Abraham was chosen before he had faith. Faith is a specific gift from God, given to those whom He chooses to give faith. Therefore, my faith is credited to me as righteousness, not because I conjure up a righteous faith, but because God's gift of faith is righteous.

It's all God, Van, and nothing about you or your imagined conjuring of self-righteous faith.

 

[Van]

LOL, Paul teaches he was chosen through faith in the truth and the Cal acolyte denies it. Both Abraham's faith and Paul's faith were credited as righteous. Scripture says we were chosen through faith, the scripture denier says we were chosen and given faith.

Then the usual disparagement that I conjure up self-righteous faith. Disinformation, misrepresentation and obfuscation on display
God alone credits our worthless dirty rag faith as righteousness.

And how many verses demonstrate conditional election for salvation? One or about a dozen? Why is it harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, Matthew 19:23-24? Why did God choose those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God? God's election for salvation is conditional, through faith in the truth.

Still waiting for someone to engage in a rational analysis of the actual verse. Only then will the endless debate of the scripture deniers be curtailed. We have had some discussion of the variants (from the beginning or as first fruits) and some discussion that sanctification refers to be set apart rather than the process of progressive sanctification. And some discussion that "from the beginning probably refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.

 

[Mr. Davis]

2 Thessalonians 2
[13]As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.

Salvation comes through the Spirit and the Spirit sets you apart through belief in the truth.

I don't see any condition placed upon a person before God elects someone. In fact, all the work is done by the Spirit of God.

To be sanctified means you must be saved. And that salvation must be secure.

Shall Never Perish. J.F. Strombeck. 1936.

AFFECTIONATELY DEDICATED TO DR. LEWIS SPERRY CHAFER

WHOSE BOOKS, “SALVATION,” AND “GRACE,” MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE OPENED MY MIND

TO AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE DOCTRINES OF THE GRACE OF GOD

The fact that salvation is said to be a gift from God, makes it unchangeable, “For God’s gifts and his call can never be withdrawn; he will never go back on his promises” (Rom 11:29 LB).

The things that are true of every believer are provided by God and are thereby perfect and acceptable to Him. “They are made to stand on the unchanging person and merit of the eternal Son of God” (Chafer, Salvation ), for they are all “through Christ” and because of His merit.

The meaning of faith, as well as the meaning of grace, excludes every possible vestige of human merit. If every possible vestige of human merit is excluded, then man’s acts, apart from accepting the Savior, are not related to salvation and thus no act of man or demerit of man can cause him to be taken out of the condition of being saved.

God has much more in view for the saved person than being saved from the guilt, penalty and condemnation of sin. He desires that those who have themselves been saved shall bear fruit. This is to live a Spirit-directed life that shows others the way of salvation.

It is said that a believer is secure a long as he remains in Christ, but that he must remain in Christ or he shall be lost. For a consideration of this “must,” consider the following:

There are two verses in John 15 with the words, “Abide in Me and I in you” and “Except ye abide in Me.” As the words “abide in Me and I in you,” are addressed to such as have been declared to be clean (v. 3), they must be applied to saved persons only and not to saved and unsaved as in verse two. Here is a definite command by God but it is not an obligation placed on the saved one, as is clear from the last three words “I in you.”

This command does not mean that those who have been cleansed on His part must keep themselves in Him. The Lord’s command to the cleansed one to abide is brought to realization by His own power. This command then states the law of divine life in Him as being a continuous need to be in union with Him.

From His own words (recorded in the same gospel), “He that believeth…hath everlasting life [eternal union with Him] and shall not come into condemnation [separation from Him], it is clear that His command cannot be broken. “No more can ye [bear fruit] except ye abide in Me.”

It is a common error when interpreting parables and illustrations to confuse the figurative details of the illustration with elements in the real world. There is no reason at all to think of the “fire” (John 15:6) as literal, just as we are not dealing with a literal vine, literal branches, or literal fruit. “Fire” here is simply another figurative element in the horticultural metaphor.

So, those believers who do not bear fruit are not “thrown into hell.” The unfruitful believer is set aside, shelved. He or she is of no practical use to Christ or to His kingdom—just as an unfruitful branch is of no use to a fruit producing vine. Yet, God in His infinite mercy, honors those that believe in Him with everlasting life.

The Arminian argument against eternal security that, “the believer must remain in Christ or be lost,” has been dealt with above. Recall, that it is by God’s power alone that we continue to abide in Him. Our Lord assures us that none will be lost: “And this is the will of God, that I should not lose even one of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them up at the last day” (John 6:39 NLT).

Another argument by the Arminians against eternal security is that, “the saved person must continue to believe.” If he ceases to believe he is lost. Few who make this statement realize that if this is true, then a saved person is lost the instant he harbors a doubt.

Paul called for disciplinary action for anyone associated with the church, whether a brother or one in name only, who took part in the church while continuing a life of sin. The discipline demanded for such a one was exclusion from fellowship with other members (1 Cor 5:11).

 

[Mr. Davis]

To be sanctified means you must be saved. And that salvation must be secure.

Shall Never Perish 2.

I Corinthians 6. Paul’s reminder, Do you not know …vv. 2-3 illustrated the gap which existed between the Corinthians’ future position and their present practice. The wicked would have no share in God’s future kingdom because they were not related to Christ. The wicked would be judged on the basis of their works (Rev. 20:13) and would condemn them. Yet the saints were acting no differently.

Their future role should have radically affected their practice in the present. If they thought otherwise, Paul warned, they were deceived. (1 Cor 5:11) The list of offenders no doubt corresponded to problems in Corinth.

6:11 Some (but not all) of the Corinthian Christians had been guilty of the sins in listed in verses 9-10, but God had intervened. They were washed…by the Spirit (cf. Titus 3:5), sanctified in the Son (cf. 1 Cor 1:2), and justified before God (cf. Rom 8:33). This fact of justification was an appropriate thought for those judicially carping Corinthians.

The ability to forsake sin is derived from the gift of repentance. ”By his own right hand God has now raised him up to be the [L]eader and avior, to give repentance and forgiveness of sins through him.” (Acts 5:31 JB) We can’t be snoozing in our fight against sin. “Why are you sleeping? He asked them. “Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation” (Luke 22:46, NIV).

Our inheritance. “Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy has given us a new birth as his sons, by raising Jesus Christ from the dead, so that we have a sure hope and the promise of an inheritance that can never be spoiled or soiled and never fade away, because it is being kept for you in the heavens.

“Through your faith, God’s power will guard you until the salvation which has been prepared is revealed at the end of time. This is a cause of great joy for you, even though you may for a short time have to bear being plagued by all sorts of trials.” (1 Peter 1:3 JB)

“And now I entrust you to God and the message of his grace that is able to build you up and give you an inheritance with all those he has set apart for himself” (Acts 20:32 NLT)

“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 2011).

Our Unlimited Forgiveness. “Jesus, then, is the High Priest that meets our needs…He is not like other high priests; he does not need to offer sacrifices every day, for his own sins first, and then for the sins of the people. He offered one sacrifice, once and for all, when he offered himself” (Heb 7:26-27, TEV).

“[H]e entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever” (Heb 10:12, NLT) “For God’s will was for us to be made holy by the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ, once for all time” (Heb 10:10, NLT). “For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy” (Heb 10:14, NIV, 2011).

“Just think how much more the blood of Christ will purify our consciences from sinful deeds so that we can worship the living God. For by the power of the eternal Spirit, Christ offered himself to God as a perfect sacrifice for our sins.

That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed…" (Heb 9:14-15, NLT).

“And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again…If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice” (Heb 9:25-26, NLT).

From the foregoing, it can be clearly seen that Christ died for all the sins of his children, past, present and future. There was only one offering for sin, once for all time.

About continuous disobedience. The wicked will never repent. Here is Christ’s teaching on repetitive sin between believers. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them. Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them” (Luke 17:3-4, NIV, 2011).

“Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times? Jesus answered, ‘I tell you not seven times, but seventy times seven.’” (Matthew 18:21-22, NIV, 2011).

This goes back to the story of Cain and Able. Cain murdered Able. But god was merciful to Cain. He said, “[A]nyone who kills Cain will suffer vengeance seven times over.” Lamech said, “I have killed a man for wounding me,..if Cain is avenged seven times, then Lamech seventy-seven times” (Gen 4:15,23, NIV, 2011).

God set a finite limit to the vengeance. The traditional Rabbinic teaching was that an offended person needed to forgive a brother only three times. Jesus meant that no limit should be set. The section on Unlimited Forgiveness shows that God sets no limit on how often to forgive his children. The Apostle John writes, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and will purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9, NIV, 2011).

However, it is a different matter in the church. “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take two or three others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector” (Matthew 18:15-17, NIV, 2011).

Paul heard about a man in the Corinthian church that was committing immorality with his stepmother. He said that he was with them in the Spirit and that he had already passed judgment on the man, in the name of the Lord Jesus. He said the church must call a meeting. He said, “[Y]ou must throw this man out and hand him over to Satan so that his flesh will be destroyed and he himself will be saved on the day our Lord Jesus Christ returns” (1 Cor 5:1-5, NIV, 2011).

Forgiveness and Restoration

Paul writes, “I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt all of you more than he hurt me. Most of you opposed him, and that was punishment enough. Now, however, it is time to forgive and comfort him. Otherwise, he may be overcome by discouragement. So I urge you now to reaffirm your love for him.

“I wrote to you as I did to test you and see if you would fully comply with my instructions. When you forgive this man, I forgive him, too. And when I forgive whatever needs to be forgiven, I do so with Christ’s authority for your benefit, so that Satan will not outsmart us. For we are familiar with his evil schemes” (2 Cor 2:5-11, NIV, 2011).

While God gives us unlimited forgiveness, we are still called to a holy life. “For [God] chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us” (Eph 1:4-8, NIV 2011).

The supreme purpose of God in salvation is: “To the praise of the glory of His grace” (Eph 1:6 and 2:7). In eternity those who are saved shall sing a new song saying: “Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood.”

There shall be no discord in that song. Here on earth there is a definitely discordant note every time someone says that the saved one must not sin, must continue in faith, must hold out to the end, must do this and must not do that in order to remain saved. The praise is not all given to the blood. But these notes shall not be heard there, for they are of the flesh and no flesh shall glory in His Presence. To Him only and to the glory of His grace shall be all the praise.

 

[percho]

Van, was Saul/Paul rich in faith when God chose him on the road to Damascus? Saul was rounding up Christians and killing them.

He was, he just did not know that he was. God had chosen him as one of faith, one of belief, yet he in unbelief was going down the road to Damascus to persecute those of the way, inclusive BTW of prison and even death.

And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 1 Tim 1:12,13

God enabled him, by turning him, from unbelief to belief.

The faith (belief) of Paul was of God the Father through the Son of God who died and was raised from the dead.

Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[percho]

Just when did Christ credit Paul's faith in Christ as righteousness? What does scripture say? No answer will be forthcoming. But scripture does imply an answer. Note also the effort to deny God chose Paul for salvation through faith in the truth, an effort to nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which was ... wait for it... written by Paul. No verse or passage is safe from the nullifiers.

I will give you the answer from the Word of God. The very exact moment.

YLT

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, Gal 3:23-25

When was that? When did the faith come?

Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me. Matt 26:38
And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed, Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Luke 22:43-44
Hebrews 5:7,8 YLT who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

What obedience did the Son of God learn? -------- The obedience of faith. When in fear of death the Son said, not my will but thine is when the faith came. That is, the faith, by which we received the Spirit, the Spirit of Truth. Gal 3:14 Gal 3:2

We received the Spirit because the Son learned the obedience and was obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Jesus gave his life, Jesus went away in death and because of his obedience many will be made righteous. Rom 5:14 by receiving the Holy Spirit - John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, the issue was when during the life of Paul did God credit Paul's faith in Christ as righteousness. You did not even address that issue.

Instead you misinterpreted Galatians 3:23-25. Here is the verse (NASB):
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, )being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Faith is being used as a name for Jesus Christ in this passage. It says Before Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant, we were kept in custody under the law, being kept from faith in Christ until He was later to be revealed. But now, the law functions as our tutor to lead us to Christ. so that we many be justified individually through our faith in Christ. And once our faith has come, we are in no way under the law, because we are under grace.

Folks, just look at verse 26 which Percho managed to skip, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus!!!

 

[Van]

Unconditional Election for salvation has been shown to be bogus with about a dozen verses, including 2 Thessalonians 2:13, and James 2:5,

 

[Reformed]

John Gill is one of the most underrated Theologians of all time, ironically 100 years before Spurgeon took the pulpit, Gill was there. Spurgeon was immersed in Gills commentaries, Gill was there as they brought in majority texts, a wonderful time.

John Gill came on the scene on the downside of English Puritanism. He is to Calvinistic Baptists what Matthew Henry was to Presbyterians. Spurgeon has gifts that Gill did not possess, most notably as a master orator. Today both men are ubiquitous to serious students of Particular/Reformed Baptist history and theology.

 

[Van]

I see where Mr. Davis has copy and pasted a commentary in his post #27. Let me address one of the many bogus points included.
John 15 and the parable of the vine.

Verse 2 says a person can abide in Me (Christ) and yet does not bear fruit. This this person is not indwelt.
Verse 5 says if a person abides in Me and I in him, therefore this person is indwelt, a born anew believer. These people bear fruit.

Verse 6 refers to folks that do not even profess to believe in Christ, thus unsaved.
Verse 7 refers to an indwelt believer. Verse 8 indicates we prove we are His born anew disciples by bearing fruit.
Verse 9 addresses born anew believers, admonishing us to abide in His love and therefore strive to keep His commandments.

Nothing in John 15 challenges eternal security. Nor does John 15 challenge Conditional Election through faith in the truth.

 

[MennoSota]

Van, you are an obstinate human being. You are shown wrong, but your pride is too vast to accept God's unconditional choice, apart from anything you do.
It's a pity.

 

[Van]

Yet another shoot the messenger post from Charge-O-Matic. All they do is disparage, misrepresent, deflect and obfuscate.

Just read John 15, folks, it is pretty straightforward, in the NASB. See anything supporting unconditional election? No, me neither!

Why is it harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God, Matthew 19:23-24? Why did God choose those poor to the world, rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God? God's election for salvation is conditional, through faith in the truth.

Still waiting for someone to engage in a rational analysis of the actual verse. Only then will the endless debate of the scripture deniers be curtailed. We have had some discussion of the variants (from the beginning or as first fruits) and some discussion that sanctification refers to be set apart rather than the process of progressive sanctification. And some discussion that "from the beginning probably refers to from the beginning of the New Covenant in His blood.

 

[percho]

Hi Percho, the issue was when during the life of Paul did God credit Paul's faith in Christ as righteousness. You did not even address that issue.

Instead you misinterpreted Galatians 3:23-25. Here is the verse (NASB):
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, )being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Faith is being used as a name for Jesus Christ in this passage. It says Before Jesus inaugurated the New Covenant, we were kept in custody under the law, being kept from faith in Christ until He was later to be revealed. But now, the law functions as our tutor to lead us to Christ. so that we many be justified individually through our faith in Christ. And once our faith has come, we are in no way under the law, because we are under grace.

Folks, just look at verse 26 which Percho managed to skip, "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus!!!

No, Percho, did not skip that verse, Percho, did not get to that verse.

How are you a son of God? What allows you to say, Abba, Father?

If I go not away the Comforter will not come to you. Once again, Christ willfully going away, not my will but thine be done. For that and that alone is why the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption, was received.

That was the faith that was in Christ by which one can say Abba, Father. It's because God has given one the Spirit of Adoption because of what Christ did.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, when a believer is chosen, set apart in Christ through faith in the truth, God causes them to be born anew, a new creation, spiritually a child of God. Our indwelt Holy Spirit is God's pledge of our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming, Romans 8::23. The "adoption" is future, what was received was God's pledge.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, a conditional election. No need to change the subject to Christ's incarnation, i.e. when "faith" came.

 

[percho]

Before the foundation of the world and man was created in the likeness of sinful flesh, who would bring death through the flesh, by sin God determined to send his Son in the flesh to give his life for the sin of the world.

That my friends, was and is, the faith. The Faith of God.

The obedience of one.

The faith came with the obedience of one, Son, Jesus of Nazareth. The faith resulted in salvation being wrought.

Father into your hands I commit my spirit.

Three days and three nights later --- And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:10 It was Jesus of Nazareth who received the promise of God who cannot lie, the hope of eternal life.

Phil 2:8,9 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Wherefore =s because of, the obedience, God raised him from the dead, exalting him. The obedience of faith.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Heb 2:9-11


That is the faith by which you or me will be saved whether we believe it or not.

We believe it by being given the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Adoption, the Comforter.

 

[Van]

Percho, once again you have posted bogus ideas that have nothing to do with the thread.

The Holy Spirit seals us in Christ, thus we are given the Holy Spirit after we have been chosen through being set apart in Christ based on God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

You were saved by grace through faith. Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand.

We were conditionally chosen for salvation through faith in the truth.

See 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and James 2:5