#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

[J. Jump]

We can't prove it to you, Jason.

Just as a little aside I didn't realize we were on a first name basis. I don't believe I got yours. Nor do I believe I have recieved SFIC's first name. Would you two care to introduce yourselves seeings that you know my name, but I don't know yours.

And admitting your shortcomings is the first step to recovery Sorry I couldn't resist. We all got jokes.

 

[J. Jump]

Psalm 94:14 14 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

Of course He won't! And this truth can be seen in the NT as well. And in the NT we get more detail as to the "who" His people are.

Those whom the Father gives me I will in no wise cast out. So we see that those that are His have been given to Him by the Father. So it is the Father that decides who are His and who are not!

So we can either admit that Calvinism must be correct or this doesn't have anything to do with the common salvation, but must be speaking to something else.

Now I guess if you are a Calvinist SFIC this fits right into your doctrine, but then we are going to have to have an entirely different debate to figure out whether Calvinism is right or wrong.

By the way SFIC are you Calvinist in your belief system? Just curious so I will know where you are coming from.

So the quesiton is "who" is the Father giving the Son? Is it all the unsaved people that are being saved or is it a group of people out of the saved people?

Well if we compare Scripture with Scripture we will see that in fact it is the later of the two. The Father is not giving all the unsaved who are going to be saved to the Son, but rather giving the Son a group out of the saved.

And one can see this truth in the OT and NT as well.

So how do we know this to be the Truth in the OT. Well one need look no further than the story of Abraham and his servant. His eldest servent was sent back to "his family" to find a bride for his son Isaac. He didn't go to anyone outside of the family. He only went to the family.

Now did ALL the family go with the servant as the bride or did only a part of the family goes as the bride? The answer is only a part of the family went as the bride.

How can we see this Truth in the NT? Answer is to whom did Jesus come? He tells us that He came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He came to already saved people! He came to "His family," but was rejected just as Moses was and Jacob was.

Now SFIC how do you get your belief that ALL Christians are a part of the bride and ALL Christians inherit the kingdom to flush with only a portion of the family becoming the bride? And how do you get it to flush with only a portion of Adam's body became his bride, just as only a portion of Christ's body is going to become His bride?

I'll await your answer.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I have told you time and time again that the difference was in the ministration of the Spirit and all that were saved were saved by faith alone and given plenty of unanswered scripture; so instead of claiming victory on a false premise why don’t you show us where Abraham or any of the OT saints received their righteousness and lived with the Spirit by any other means than the promise in faith alone therby receiving grace by believing in faith what had been revealed to them?

So, you are showing how people are saved. We've shown that repeatedly, although if memory serves, even that passage eludes Diggin.

We're not talking about people being saved, we are talking about entrance into the coming Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

As for Galatians, those verses that you posted are nice. But, all they do is support the argument that we are making. Let's look at the verses that you posted again:

Gal 3:25-29: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster For ye are all the children [sons] of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I believe you were quoting from the ESV, and it does have the better translation in verse 26 in that it translates "huios" as "son" instead of "child".

"Ye" are sons "through" what? Faith! We're saved by "believe" (verb), but we are to live by "faith" (noun). That's how we go on to maturity; that's how we are placed into position (adoption; son-placment) as a son and not simply a child of God.

And that's who this book is written to. It's to those who are called out or elect.

This is not talking about being saved, it's talking about the Kingdom, and that's what we are talking about.

If works are involved, it has nothing to do with being spiritually saved, other than the fact that only a spiritually saved person can qualify for entrance into the Kingdom.

We're not saved by works, and as such, we cannot lose our spiritual salvation by our works.

We don't stay saved by works.

We don't prove that we're saved by works.

Works are works are works, no matter how pretty you color them and try to hide them.

 

[Hope of Glory]

If you think those two messages are the same then you believe in a works based salvation and you can deny it all you want to, but the kingdom is tied to works and it can not be denied.

Interjection: Those who believe that salvation can be forfeited use these passages to prove that you can lose your salvation based on your works. They do this because they also equate spiritual salvation with the Kingdom. (But, tend to ignore passages that show the security of the believer and show that spiritual salvation is not based on works.)

So, unless you ignore these passages, then they either show that Kingdom entrance is based on works or that your spiritual salvation can be lost based on works.

Which one is it?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6 that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Amen! I think I've posted this verse on more than one occasion.

Paul also wrote in that same chapter that every believer has been justified, or declared righteous.

Mind showing this proof? I've read the passage many, many times, and I've never seen anything that shows that every saved person (what I assume you mean by "believer") is justified. In fact, we're exhorted quite regularly to work towards that justification.

Do you think your spiritual salvation is based or secured or proved by works?

Therefore the justified believer is not unrighteous and will not be excluded from the kingdom.

What about those saved individuals who don't find themselves justified? Those who live a life of willful sin and don't access his blood on the Mercy Seat, are going to find themselves in big trouble.

Aren't they?

Or are all sins forgiven, even if we don't confess them?

 

[DHK]

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

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DHK