#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

God is not a respector of persons, but he is a judger of works, is he not?

And, perhaps it would probably have been better if I had written it as "not all who are not obedient" so you could not twist my meaning quite so easily. The actively disobedient, will suffer to one extent or another. Either through losing some of what he could have, or even being actively chastized.

Luke 12:47-48a And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

Ah, the ol' "If you don't have Scripture to support yourself call 'em a heretic!" defense again, I see.

Or, do you have Scripture that you're keeping to yourself?

 

show me the scripture you are supposedly proving they are saved individuals.

 

Ah, yes, another strawman. *sigh*

No one has the original autographs. But, the original text from which we translate, in the original languages, which in the case of the NT is Greek.

I guess since you have posted no Scripture, obfuscation is the course for the day.

 

They can't show the scripture to prove goats are saved individuals, because it is not there.

 

You could just read one of the lengthy threads on the subject. Here's one of them: Who are the Sheep and Goats?

 

So, you think that goats are holy?

You think that unsaved people will be at the Judgment Seat of Christ?

How bizarre, cultish, and heretical!

 

You say saved people will be cast into outer darkness.

There is no assurance of salvation, if that is the case.

It is the unsaved cast into outer darkness, not the saved.

 

Don't you get tired of using these lame, punchless, no meat, weak, do nothing arguments?

You can't provide one verse of Scripture that says goats are unsaved either. Again you prove NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY ZERO with your statement.

If you want to prove goats are unsaved then show us how you compare Scripture with Scripture to make that case.

 

Again no real understanding of what we are talking about or either you are just deliberately lying. Which is it?

Again you can not go to a verse of Scripture that says it is the unsaved that are cast into outerdarkness.

 

All of these verses show to me that we will not be cast away. That is a promise for all eternity.

And the fact that Paul wrote that we will ever be with the Lord puts the icing on the cake for me.

God is faithful who promised. Hath He said and shall He not do it? or hath He spoken, shall He not make it good?

God's Word is truth, whether one wants to say it is cherry picking or not, He states that we will not be cast away, I believe it and hold Him to that promise.

It was said earlier, that satan tried to use God's Word to deceive and beguile.

Answer this since you seem to be playing childish games of not producing scripture to prove your foolish doctine...

Was Paul lying when He stated we will 'ever be' with the Lord?

Was he lying when he stated that whosoever believeth on Him 'shall not be ashamed'?

Don't you think you would be ashamed if you stood before Christ and He said 'You did not do enough works, so I cannot let you into my kingdom, Depart into outer darkness!'? I know I would.

But praise the Lord, there is no need to be ashamed. Christ is our lawyer and He reminds the Father of our being purchased with His blood. That we are His possession and therefore cannot be cast away.

Was Jesus, the Son of God lying when He said, 'I will in no wise cast out?

 

Outer Darkness or
The Darkness Outside

At this point it might be helpful to consider the expression "outer darkness." It is found only three places in the New Testament, all in Matthew's gospel. These three passages can be found listed at the beginning of this paper (those passages highlighted in yellow).

All three passages speak of being "cast" into outer darkness. It is a word that is commonly used of being cast or thrown into hell or into the lake of fire (see Matthew 5:29; 5:30; 13:42; 13:50; 18:8; 18:9; Mark 9:45; 9:47; Revelation 19:20; 20:10; 20:14; 20:15).

All three passages associate outer darkness with "weeping and gnashing of teeth." One of the purposes of this paper is to determine if the weeping and gnashing of teeth involves anger/rage/pain/anguish (which would signify a place of torment or punishment) or whether it refers to sorrow/grief/regret/remorse which is the position of Hodges, Dillow and Wilkin. We will discuss this more in detail later.

Hodges, Dillow and Wilkin teach that all three of these "outer darkness" passages refer to saved people who are excluded from kingdom joys and who are not allowed to reign with Christ due to their unfaithfulness. Hodges and Wilkin teach that this sorrow and remorse will take place at the judgment seat of Christ and will not last very long. Wilkin, in correspondence with this writer, said, "neither Hodges nor I believe that believers will be grieved beyond the bema." Dillow seems to teach that the weeping and gnashing of teeth will take place in the kingdom: "The phrase 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' is found seven times in the N.T. Even though it is used on three occasions of the experience of the unregenerate in hell, it is also used on four occasions of the regenerate in the kingdom...The Fact that the nonbeliever can experience profound regret in hell in no way implies that the true Christian cannot experience profound regret in the kingdom" (emphasis mine, Joseph Dillow, The Reign of the Servant Kings, p. 351). Dillow elsewhere teaches that the duration of remorse in the kingdom will not be for long: "The experience of remorse need not last that long. We suspect that the duration of this period of self-examination is equal to the duration of the [millennial] banquet" (p. 532).

Hodges and Wilkin teach that the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" takes place at the judgment seat of Christ and that the remorse does not last very long. There are two reasons why this view of Hodges and Wilkin does not fit the Biblical data: 1) The Bible never speaks of believers being "cast" to the judgment seat of Christ. Church saints will arrive there apparently by means of rapture/resurrection and we will appear before Christ, but it never says we will be cast there. 2) The Bible never associates the judgment seat with outer darkness. Indeed, quite the opposite! It will be a time when everything will be manifested and brought to LIGHT: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God" (1 Cor. 4:5).

Contrary to the teaching of Hodges, Wilkin and Dillow, there are many reasons why the "outer darkness" does not refer to the fate of true Christians.

The word "outer" occurs only in the three passages under discussion. Hodges likes to translate it, "the darkness outside." This is an acceptable translation. The term "outside" indicates exclusion. The question is whether it refers to exclusion from a millennial banquet (as Dillow suggests) or whether it refers to total exclusion from the kingdom (excluded from the kingdom due to the person's unsaved condition).

The word "outer" (εξωτερος) is closely related to another term "outside" (εξω) which is often translated "without" by the KJV. It is used several times as a description of unsaved people (those who are without, those who are outside): 1 Corinthians 5:12; 5:13; Col. 4:5; 1 Thessalonians 4:12. It is never used as a description of saved people. It is used with respect to the location of those in hell: "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie" (Revelation 22:15). The Lord Jesus promised His believers that they would never be cast out (John 6:37, same word). Yet, in spite of this promise from our Lord, Hodges and Dillow and Wilkin believe that saved people will be cast into outer darkness.

Although the term "outer darkness" is only found in the three passages under discussion, the Bible does describe hell elsewhere in terms of terrible darkness: "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever" (2 Pet. 2:17). "Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever" (Jude 13).

Will true Christians be cast into outer darkness? Other passages describe the saved of this age in such a way that it makes such a fate impossible. Consider the following:

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son" (Col. 1:12-13). This statement is true of every born again believer. How could anyone possibly think that those who are partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light will be consigned to outer darkness? We have been delivered from the power of darkness and from the realm of the prince of darkness. Outer darkness is a realm that we could never enter.

"For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord" (Eph. 5:8). "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness" (1 Thess. 5:4-5; compare also Romans 13:11-12). How could children of the light be cast into outer darkness?

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me" (Acts 26:18). This is an inheritance shared by all true Christians! Would the God who turned them from darkness to light then cast them into outer darkness? Perish the thought!

"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9). Would the God who called us out of darkness later cast us into outer darkness, even after we have been glorified? Such a theory makes no Biblical sense.

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12) Please note that in John 10:27 we learn that those who FOLLOW Christ are His true sheep. Christ promised His true sheep that they will not walk in darkness but they would have the light of life. Would He then turn around and cast them into outer darkness?

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4:17). If Christ's beloved body and bride are going to be forever with the Lord, then how can some of them be cast into outer darkness? Christ would have to be in outer darkness with them, and such a thought is abhorrent. Outer darkness is not the destiny (not even the temporary destiny) of any member of Christ's body.

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesgn.htm

Now go "cherry-pick" away! Why don't you guys get serious--there are lost SOULS on their way to ETERNAL damnation. The body of Christ is NOT divided into two groups. I have not found any scriptural reference to the term "eternal salvation"-- Our spirit is quickened (Eph. 2:1), but it is our soul that is saved.

 

I would be close to these guys in the sayings that of all who claim to be Christians that some are in fact not as most here would agree, but would make the point where we greatly differ is on what saves in regards to works and whose works they are that get one there. Here is where the discord begins as the meaning of grace is being added to by means of a second salvation and division of the body in attempt to add ones own works to grace in claiming a separate salvation of the soul apart from the spirit. What happened to the quickening?

I earnestly see concern for those that are adding in to the definition of works to be that of Earthly works of the flesh thereby showing they have not trusted in the revelation of the God’s Glorious Grace by these divisions of the body and have not submitted their own faith unto death of self will and are seen reading into the Word that one saves ones self by their own earthly works and not the heavenly works of God.

There is only one way to be perfect enough to be received into the kingdom of Heaven and that is by being in Him and our righteousness is seen in that faith by believing that He has done the works and the works are His alone. How can one have truly confessed Him in their hearts while claiming that our own earthly works are of value to save our soul by these divisions when we are told those works are nothing but rags… well, I don’t know how else to put it...we shall know them by their fruits.

We then get into the differences of what is the motivation and I feel those trying to divide the Word to form divisions of the body of Christ are doing so in order to explain why a “Christian” should be obedient in his work but again the concern is the point being missed of the love of the truth and trust that God has given us Grace. It is so simply explained as it confounds the wise in their ways that once we are saved we are obedient in that love for our Father as a child of a God and in Christ we are free indeed.

Saved is saved is saved is saved! There are no divisions and no other added ways; I really think the confusion is in taking the instructions to the saints to keep and quicken them and then applying those instructions by separating them into a second salvation to prove a doctrine that seems to make sense for the purposes of motivation to be obedient. While certainly these instructions are seen throughout the Bible and it is admirable to teach obedience there is a reason it is seen and that is for the purpose to reveal the truth to us of God’s Grace and give us the faith we need to live in that belief.

BTW, the show me God’s Glorious Grace fully revealed in the OT to prove the bride of Christ thing is a not so funny joke and taught to be seen as a stumbling block or spiritual discernment in that misunderstanding.

 

That is true if you are talking about "perfect" in an absolute and (in the case of salvation) positional sense. But the word "perfect" in the Bible also can mean "mature". (Eph 4:12, Phil 3:12, Heb 6:1, etc)

This is a perfection that we must, as Christians, attain to. If you notice, the Kingdom message is always surrounded biblically by works and outward righteousness. We don't get saved by works, but those of us that are saved need to obey our Father/lord or else be chastened.

Kingdom entrance is always conditional. Do a word study. It was works-conditional in the OT types (1 Cor 10:6-12) and in every mention of Kingdom entrance/inheritance in the NT.

lacy

 

Acts 27:31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved.

We better get on the boat!!!

 

This verse is speaking of PHYSICAL salvation--the SAVING of the lives of those men who were shipwrecked. This verse has NOTHING to do with the salvation of the soul. You are really stretching it out to make it fit that false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion.

Read verse 30 also--it goes along with 31. As a matter of fact, the entire chapter of Acts 27 has nothing to do with the salvation of the soul. It's all about the shipwreck.

And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, (Acts 27:30)

Now--that's what I call "cherry picking" verses out of context!!

 

You know Lacy; I really don’t have a problem with that statement alone. :love2: :laugh:

Conditional on faith. Same in the OT. Do you think the people were saved by the works of their sacrifices in the OT? If you do, got news for ya.

 

No that's what you call missing the point which is this:

The term "salvation" that folks throw around here is meaningless without context. Benjamin said "salvation is salvation is salvation". I was merely using sarcasm to make a point. Ther are not just two "salvations". There are as many as we need something to be saved from. It all depends on context

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

Does anybody else see three here? Or is it just me?

 

Ok you are partially correct, and I was partially wrong. The first "salvation" (Out of Egypt) was by faith in the substitutionary blood of the Lamb ALONE. The second "salvation" (Into the Kingdom) was by Faith plus works, blood and water.

 

Now come on Linda don't you think the very same thing could be said of you and the people posting that believe like you. We on the kingdom side are nothing but jokesters eh? Give me a break.

No but there are unsaved SPIRITS on their way to ETERNAL damnation. There are lost SOULS on their way to age-lasting destruction though!!

The Bible distinguishes between the body, soul and spirit. We are spiritually dead not soulically dead. It is our SPIRITS that are in need of being made alive not our souls. Our souls are already alive.

It makes no sense to say it is our souls that are made alive at the point of salvation, because they aren't even what is dead.

The discussion of the kingdom is really moot if we can't even get on the same page as to eternal salvation. Salvation by grace through faith apart from works is what saves the spirit. The Spirit breathes life into that which had no life and our spirit then passes from death unto life.

 

Benjamin where are you coming up with this stuff? You all read exactly what you want to I guess, because NNE has said ANYTHING remotely close to what is in your quoted statement.

No one has said we are saved by early works of the flesh. The works of the flesh will be burned as wood, hay and stubble. The ONLY works that will stand are the works wrought through our members by the Spirit as we die to self. But God credits them to our account as if they are our own works. I don't know why He does it that way, but that is the way the Bible lays it out.

And NNE has said ANYTHING about eternal salvation being ANYTHING other than God's grace alone by faith alone is the finished works of Christ alone. You really have to start reading what we are writing instead of reading into what we write what you want it to say.

Huh?