#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

[J. Jump]

As I said, Christians cannot be found in the Old Testament. It is foolish for anyone to even suggest someone look for Christians there.

I don't know where you have said that, but that is absolutely a false statement. Now granted you can not find the term Christian, but you absolutely can find types and shadows of Christians in the OT. And there is NOTHING foolish to search for NT Truths in the OT.

By your own admission now your belief doesn't pass the Scriptural test, yet you continue to hold on to it and you continue to slander those that have shown you its falsity.

Christ said in the Gospels to search the Scriptures for they testify of Him.

EXACTLY! So if Christ can be found in the OT so can His body! That's my point exactly. There are all kinds of types and shadows of believers in the OT.

The Scripture promises that Christ will not cast out those who come to Him.

Amen! But it's not talking about eternal salvation. That was said to believers about believers, not unbelievers!!!

Again the ONLY message the Bible speaks to unbelievers (unsaved) is that Jesus died for them according to the Scriptures and He shed His blood as their substitute and if they will believe they WILL be saved.

Outside of that Scripture is meant for the believer only, because it is the believer only that can understand it because it is a spiritual book. The natural man can not understand the things of the Spirit.

If He put them outside the kingdom, they would be cast out, thereby making Him a liar.

Only by your understanding, not by Scripture, and not in reality for it is impossible for Him to lie.

Every Christian will indeed rule and reign with Him. All are promised one crown or another.

Okay forget about the OT, becuase you aren't even willing to find an example from there (because there isn't one), but please show me some NT Scriptures that even say that. They don't exist. Please show me where it says ALL Christians will receive at least one crown.

Or are you calling the Lord Jesus Christ a liar for saying He would not cast those who come to Him out?

Again you are taking Scripture out of context and applying it to your own theological situation. Left in its original context that promise is not speaking of eternal salvation, because it was spoken to people that were already saved.

So shall we EVER be WITH THE LORD.?

Again you cherry pick something out of Scripture and then place a demand on it that it speaks to ALL Chrisitians. Go back and see who the "we" are and you will find that Paul is speaking to faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians. Those are the "we." And if you are a kingdom believer that is faithful, obedient, and overcoming the world, the flesh and Satan then you can claim that promise. If you are a carnal Christian that is living by the flesh you can not lay claim to that promise.

To preach or teach otherwise is clearly against the Word of God and downright foolish.

Well only time will tell. And if we are wrong then it will be no big deal, because as you say we will ALL get a little piece of paradise and everything will be peaches and creme, so what do we have to fear if we are incorrect.

However, if we are correct...well you can just meditate on that one for a while.

 

[J. Jump]

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So after starting a work in the believer our Saviour is unable to finish the job and keep us with him eternaly ???????

And after we are conformed to his image we are not fit for the kingdom???????


1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

It's amazing this has to be said so many times, but I can cherry pick verses out of Scripture and prove just about anything I want to if I'm willing to take them out of their original contexts.

Part of context is who the passage is written to. And if you will notice that in all three books you mentioned they are all written to faithful, obedient, overcomers. So you can not apply those things to ALL Christians. They can only be applied to faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians.

 

[tinytim]

Good point, Rex!

Unfortunately, they will say that does not apply to the saved Christians who miss the kingdom.

They are too blind to see the truth.

I'm impressed... you knew what they would say.

Why is when we provide scriptures that show this doctrine is false it is called cherry picking, but not when they pick verses....

Yeah, it is sounding like a broken record,

The verses Rex showed are in context.

 

[webdog]

Well obviously an unbeliever that does these things is not going to inherit the kingdom. But what you must ask yourself is, if I commit adultery, am I one of 'they' that commit such things? The answer would have to be yes. We can be forgiven of such sins if we confess and forsake them, but if we have these sins in our lives, we are they.

So if I understand you correctly...if a believer commits one of "their" sins, they are not a believer? With this broad brush you have painted David...the "apple of God's eys" as an unbeliever. I'm glad I don't believe I'm saved by my works!

 

[J. Jump]

The verses Rex showed are in context.

No they are not. Audience is part of context and ALL Christians are NOT the audience. Faithful Christians are the audience, therefore establishing the context.

And the reason it is you all that are cherry picking is that you go to four or five verses and try to establish a doctrine, whereas the word of the kingdom doctrine is established throughout Scripture in both the OT and NT.

Diggin by his own admission showed that your beliefs are false because there is not a single example that ALL Christians are a part of the bride or will rule and reign with Christ that can be found in the OT.

There are numerous types and shadows that show not ALL will be included in the bride in the OT.

Your beliefs just don't pass the Scripture test as bad as you want to hold on to them. If tradition fails the test, tradition must go and the Word of God must stand. It's really that plain and simple.

 

[James_Newman]

So if I understand you correctly...if a believer commits one of "their" sins, they are not a believer? With this broad brush you have painted David...the "apple of God's eys" as an unbeliever. I'm glad I don't believe I'm saved by my works!

Now how did you get to that conclusion from what I said? Belief, unbelief, is not in question. It is about works. They that do such things could include believers and unbelievers, although as I said, no unbeliever is in danger of inheritting the kingdom to begin with and as such are not in any danger of losing their inherittance. Since I don't ascribe to the 'all believers have good works' theory, I don't pretend to know if someone is a believer based on outward works. If someone tells me they believe the gospel, I believe that they believe it. If that someone is an adulterer, then they are an adulterous believer. That doesn't somehow get them out from under the scripture that says 'they who do such things.' It doesn't say 'unbelievers who do such things', does it?

 

[J. Jump]

So if I understand you correctly...if a believer commits one of "their" sins, they are not a believer? With this broad brush you have painted David...the "apple of God's eys" as an unbeliever. I'm glad I don't believe I'm saved by my works!

No you don't understand. That's why you shouldn't have made the last two statements.

Just because one commits the sin doesn't make him an unbeliever (if you are talking in the sense of the kingdom - if you are talking in the sense of eternal salvation nothing causes one to be an unbeliever). It is the committing of sins and then the unrepentance that makes one an unbeliever.

The difference is David commited terrible sins, but when he was confronted he was repentant.

Now that doesn't give one a license to go out and sin, but we have an Advocate before the Father when we do sin. Confess your sins and He is faithful and just to forgive you of your sins. Don't confess your sins He is faithful and just to not forgive them as well!

Until you can make the distinction between eternal salvation and the kingdom there will be no understanding and any attempt to understand would be in vain, becuase you are going to constantly come up with false statements such as this:

I'm glad I don't believe I'm saved by my works!

Because in the eternal sense that is EXACTLY what we have said. But time after time after time after time after time after time it has been shown in both the OT and the NT that works are required for entrance into the kingdom. You just can not get around that without denying Scripture.

 

[webdog]

But time after time after time after time after time after time it has been shown in both the OT and the NT that works are required for entrance into the kingdom. You just can not get around that without denying Scripture.

I don't deny Scripture...I deny your interpretation of It. You see it as entrance...I see it as rewards. Jesus will never leave me nor forsake me. He will not be holding my hand in hell saying "Webdog, it will be all better in another 999 years or so...".

 

[James_Newman]

So you are just going to pretend that the verses aren't there? Or are you going to change your mind and say that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian?

 

[tinytim]

No they are not. Audience is part of context and ALL Christians are NOT the audience. Faithful Christians are the audience, therefore establishing the context.

And the reason it is you all that are cherry picking is that you go to four or five verses and try to establish a doctrine, whereas the word of the kingdom doctrine is established throughout Scripture in both the OT and NT.

Diggin by his own admission showed that your beliefs are false because there is not a single example that ALL Christians are a part of the bride or will rule and reign with Christ that can be found in the OT.

There are numerous types and shadows that show not ALL will be included in the bride in the OT.

Your beliefs just don't pass the Scripture test as bad as you want to hold on to them. If tradition fails the test, tradition must go and the Word of God must stand. It's really that plain and simple.

Then show me where Jesus was only talking to the faithful...
It is easy to come up with any doctrine as long as you can say, "well he was only talking to that group over there,"

You admit he was addressing a mixed crowd, so it is up to you to show where he pinpointed just the faithful.

 

[tinytim]

So you are just going to pretend that the verses aren't there? Or are you going to change your mind and say that there is no such thing as a carnal Christian?

There is no difference in pretending they are not there, than pretending God's promises to the saved do not apply to everyone, except your select group that believes this false doctrine.

That is what you believe isn't it?
Can we that don't interpret the scripture the way you do, enter the kingdom?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 5:1 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ... the Christian is one who is 'in Christ'. They will ever be with Him. Never separated from Him.

Those who are not in Christ are not of Christ and therefore not believers, not Christians.

You have tried your best to twist God's Word into a lie, but those who are in Christ know the truth that is in the Scripture. Those who are in Christ will not be utterly cast out.

Your lies will one day cause you to realize this when the Lord says, 'I never knew you'.

 

[J. Jump]

I don't deny Scripture...I deny your interpretation of It.

There is NO interpretation involved. It either says those that do the will of my Father will get in or it doesn't. Does the Bible say those that do the will of my Father will enter in or doesn't it?

There is NO interpretation involved. It either says that murders, adulters, etc. will not inherit the earth or it doesn't. Does the Bible say those that are murders, adulterers, etc. will not inherit the kingdom or doesn't it?

The Bible is not open to our interpretation It interprets Itself.

You see it as entrance...I see it as rewards.

It doesn't matter how you or I see it. It only matters what does the Bible say. And it says plainly those that do the will of my Father (WORKS) will enter the kingdom. Those that work inquity will not. It doesn't say that only unsaved peolpe are capable of working inquity. It just says those that work iniquity will not. So if a saved person is working iniquity, which is possible, then they are not going to enter/inherit the kingdom.

It really is that simple when we let the Bible says what the Bible says.

"Webdog, it will be all better in another 999 years or so...".

You are right there. But God will wipe away the tears that were shed during that 1,000-year period when it is over. It is amazing how much love and mercy He has!

 

[J. Jump]

Then show me where Jesus was only talking to the faithful...

Go back and read the opening verses of the books and you will see it.

It is easy to come up with any doctrine as long as you can say, "well he was only talking to that group over there,"

These worthless arguments really give me a chuckle. The EXACT same thing can be said of you Tim. It is easy to come up with any doctrine as long as you can say, "well He made His promises to ALL Christians."

You admit he was addressing a mixed crowd,

I don't ever recall making a statement that says He was speaking to a mixed crowd in either of those three books, but if I did please show me evidence.

so it is up to you to show where he pinpointed just the faithful.

It's not up to me to show anything. It's there in black and white. If you believe it fine and if you don't fine. What you believe is between you and God. You will not have to answer to me on that day, just as I won't have to answer to you.

 

[webdog]

There is NO interpretation involved. It either says that murders, adulters, etc. will not inherit the earth or it doesn't. Does the Bible say those that are murders, adulterers, etc. will not inherit the kingdom or doesn't it?

Sure does...but it does not say that these people are saved individuals. The Bible tells us that God's Children are joint heirs with Christ, so it should be obvious that those who do not inherit the kingdom are not children.

It doesn't matter how you or I see it. It only matters what does the Bible say. And it says plainly those that do the will of my Father (WORKS) will enter the kingdom. Those that work inquity will not. It doesn't say that only unsaved peolpe are capable of working inquity. It just says those that work iniquity will not.

Was Christ bruised for our iniquities...or wasn't He? Saved people are capable of working iniquity, but Christ's blood covered that. He chastens those in that state...not abandons them!

You are right there. But God will wipe away the tears that were shed during that 1,000-year period when it is over. It is amazing how much love and mercy He has!

I can't believe you used the word "mercy" in that sentence... :tear:

 

[James_Newman]

There is no difference in pretending they are not there, than pretending God's promises to the saved do not apply to everyone, except your select group that believes this false doctrine.

That is what you believe isn't it?
Can we that don't interpret the scripture the way you do, enter the kingdom?

The problem is when you pretend that a conditional promise is unconditionally applied to all Christians. Inheritting the kingdom is clearly conditioned upon obedience to the Lord. Believing on the Lord is the first thing a person must do to inherit the kingdom. But you cannot show that once a person believes they are now automatically considered obedient in the eyes of God and they can never lose their inherittance. There is the eternal justification which is through faith alone and they will never lose it, but it is not an all encompasing blanket amnesty for sin that includes the crown, the throne, ten cities and a banquet with the King of Kings.

 

[tinytim]

You are right there. But God will wipe away the tears that were shed during that 1,000-year period when it is over. It is amazing how much love and mercy He has!

Yeah, what love....!!!!!
Send His child to Hell after he promised not too, and then after we burn for 1000 yrs bring us back to him...

I FEEL THE LOVE!

Right there, you just redefined mercy....

This doctrine is absurd....
And here is the proof: (although i'm sure you will twist the scriptures to say what you want it to say....)

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
(11) For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
(13) his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
(14) If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
(15) If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

in context... only the wood, hay and straw will be burnt.
Useless works done by the unfaithful.... unless the faithful does useless works.... which would make even less sense.

 

[J. Jump]

Can we that don't interpret the scripture the way you do, enter the kingdom?

Great question. As far as I can see if one believes that Christ is the King, that He is going to one day return and set up His kingdom and that is will be a literal 1,000-year kingdom and they are mixing that faith with obedient works (will of the Father) and they are confessing their sins as necessary then they will enter the kingdom.

However, the question that I believe you and other pastor/teachers are going to have to answer to is why you led the children underneath your care astray by telling them that there is no need for them to be faithful, obedient, overcoming Christians, because everyone gets their little piece of paradise no matter how they conduct their lives on this earth.

Not going to be a fun time I don't think. But hey what do you have to be concerned about you don't believe it anyway right Everybody will receive a crown of some sort and all will be well.

 

[James_Newman]

Yeah, what love....!!!!!
Send His child to Hell after he promised not too, and then after we burn for 1000 yrs bring us back to him...

Now you're making up promises.

 

[tinytim]

I can't believe you used the word "mercy" in that sentence... :tear:

Why not believe they used that word like that...
They have been redefining words like that althrough these pages...

This is just one example of how twisted their cultic teachings are..

"God is a God of mercy...he sends his children to Hell"

How twisted is that...

I thank God that I serve a God that is faithful, and keeps his promises.