#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Tim,

I would say that because the Holy Spirit had not been given to Peter satan was indeed allowed to enter him.

I would not say he was possessed by satan, but that he was used by him; for Jesus said in His prayer in John 17 'All that thos hast given me, I have kept...'

Peter belonged to Jesus.

 

[James_Newman]

I think that we may be making an assumption, that every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit. But regardless, is it being sealed by the Holy Spirit that saves us? Or is it believing?

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

I do not believe that the disciples received the Holy Spirit at the time Jesus breathed on them.

I believe that the Lord was instructing them to receive the Holy Ghost when He sent it.

John 14 records that the Lord would go away and send another comforter (the Holy Ghost).

We see Him going away in Acts 1, and in Acts 2 we read:

Acts 2:1-4 Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

It was at this time that they received the Holy Ghost.

 

[tinytim]

I think that we may be making an assumption, that every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit. But regardless, is it being sealed by the Holy Spirit that saves us? Or is it believing?

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

It is through believing that we are saved, yes. But the Holy Spirit keeps us saved.... He seals us... He is given to us as a earnest... a down payment if you will...

But Peter didn't have the HS when he believed... So he was saved, but not sealed... does that make sense?

I too think maybe "possessed" is not the right word, even though I think I was the one that used it.... "influenced" by Satan may be better...

I just don't know what possessed me to use that word!!! :tongue3: :laugh: :BangHead:

 

[tinytim]

I do not believe that the disciples received the Holy Spirit at the time Jesus breathed on them.

I believe that the Lord was instructing them to receive the Holy Ghost when He sent it.

John 14 records that the Lord would go away and send another comforter (the Holy Ghost).

We see Him going away in Acts 1, and in Acts 2 we read:



It was at this time that they received the Holy Ghost.

OK, but what was the point of Jesus breathing on them?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Tim,

Not sure, but it could have been a new strength for them to endure untill that filling at Pentecost.

We look in Genesis and we see God breathed in man's nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. Here, we see Christ not breathing in them, but on them.

Is there significance in breathing on them? Most assuredly!

I believe it was for strength, as I said.

 

[James_Newman]

It is through believing that we are saved, yes. But the Holy Spirit keeps us saved....

I'm not going to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't keep us saved... although I'm not sure that our salvation is something that has to be kept, as if it would spoil or wear off. But why should we think that what the bible calls being sealed by the Holy Spirit is related to the Spirit keeping us saved, at least in the eternal sense? I am sure that being sealed by the Spirit has everything to do with the inheritance, but I'm not sure that every believer is sealed with the Spirit. I could be wrong, I'm just throwing this out. It's kind of a rabbit trail, though.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

I'm not going to say that the Holy Spirit doesn't keep us saved... although I'm not sure that our salvation is something that has to be kept, as if it would spoil or wear off. But why should we think that what the bible calls being sealed by the Holy Spirit is related to the Spirit keeping us saved, at least in the eternal sense? I am sure that being sealed by the Spirit has everything to do with the inheritance, but I'm not sure that every believer is sealed with the Spirit. I could be wrong, I'm just throwing this out. It's kind of a rabbit trail, though.

The Spirit is given to every born again believer.

John 7:39 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Ephesians 1:13 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[James_Newman]

I agree the Spirit is given to every believer, just not sure that is the same thing as being 'sealed'. But regardless, I would say that the Spirit is given to believers to empower them to live righteously and to have the strength to endure, not to somehow secure their salvation (unless you are referring to the salvation of the soul.)

 

[J. Jump]

I agree the Spirit is given to every believer, just not sure that is the same thing as being 'sealed'. But regardless, I would say that the Spirit is given to believers to empower them to live righteously and to have the strength to endure, not to somehow secure their salvation (unless you are referring to the salvation of the soul.)

James I would agree with the sealing of the Holy Spirit having to do with the inheritance. What we have to look at is why was the Holy Spirit sent on the day of Pentecost. And the answer is found in Genesis where Abraham's highest servant was sent back to his family to find a bride for his son Isaac.

The sending of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost has to do with the Spirit's finding a bride for the Son. Being a part of the bride has to do with the inheritance.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I too think maybe "possessed" is not the right word, even though I think I was the one that used it.... "influenced" by Satan may be better...

I like to use the word "demonized" to represent both those who are possessed and saved people who permit themselves to be demonically influenced, because I agree that a saved person cannot be possessed, but sometimes you can't tell the difference between a demon possessed unsaved person and a demonically influenced saved person. Although, I think the saved person has to permit (either voluntarily or through lifestyle choices), but the unsaved person doesn't always have a say in the matter.

 

[Hope of Glory]

In John 7:39, "believe" is a present, active, participle. What happens when they stop believing?

In John 3:16, "believe" is also a present, active, participle. If "believe" is present tense, it's continuous action, and it can stop. What happens there when they stop believing?

"Should not perish" is subjunctive; the ones believing might or might not perish.

"Have" is also subjunctive.

The one believing in the present tense might not (but might) perish, and might (or might not) have aionian life.

If one stops believing, what happens?

How does this verse fit in with everlasting security?

Why will you not answer these questions?

 

[Hope of Glory]

PURGATORY

(to purge; to cleanse). According to Roman Catholic theology, purgatory is a place or state where Christians go after death to suffer for sins not cleansed during their earthly existence. After an unspecified time of purgation, the soul is thought to go to Heaven. It is said to be a place of suffering. Until recent years, purgatory was described as a place of fiery pain, but many Catholic priests today teach that the fires of purgatory as taught in former days might be symbolic. Masses are said for the dead in the belief that rituals and prayers can help speed the soul's escape from purgatory. Even popes are not thought to be exempt from purgatory. When Pope Paul died, special masses were performed all over the world to help him out of purgatory.

"The doctrine of purgatory clearly demonstrates that even when the guilt of sin has been taken away, punishment for it or the consequences of it may remain to be expiated or cleansed. They often are. In fact, in Purgatory, the souls of those who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who have not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions, are cleansed after death with punishment designed to purge away their debt" (Vatican Council II, p. 75).

Way of Life Encyclopedia

Linda, your post proves my point that you need to do a bit more study on the Catholic idea of Purgatory.

Also, I was going to ask some of the same questions that J. Jump asked, but I'll repeat (and rephrase) one:

Why do we need to confess our sins?

 

[tinytim]

In John 7:39, "believe" is a present, active, participle. What happens when they stop believing?

In John 3:16, "believe" is also a present, active, participle. If "believe" is present tense, it's continuous action, and it can stop. What happens there when they stop believing?

"Should not perish" is subjunctive; the ones believing might or might not perish.

"Have" is also subjunctive.

The one believing in the present tense might not (but might) perish, and might (or might not) have aionian life.

If one stops believing, what happens?

How does this verse fit in with everlasting security?

Why will you not answer these questions?

OK, here is my take on this....

One believes in order to receive salvation.
The only thing a person could do to lose salvation would be to reverse the procedure by which they were saved... (And I am talking about eternal salvation here, although I feel they are the same, I am saying this to explain it to the MEs here)
And I don't think someone can reverse it.

Some has said that we can lose salvation by sinning... well, we didn't get it by being Good, so that wouldn't work.

The only thing we did, (and actually God gave it to us) is believe...
Our belief in Christ is what delivers eternal salvation to us.
So IF, and that is a big IF, a person could lose eternal salvation, they would have to quit believing....

And I don't think that is possible...
Head belief yeah, we can change our minds about anything,
but when you know something with your Heart, you cannot change it.

Try to convince a woman that went through labor, that she never had a child.... She Knows she did. She believes she did.

Apart from altzeimers, (which is not her fault) she will always believe she is a mom, you will never change her mind.

I liken that to the belief that delivers salvation... you will never convince me that Christ died for me... I know He did, I know him personally... so therefore I can never stop believing....

Theoretically, yes
Practically, no....

That might explain a little better my beliefs.

And since I believe that the Kingdom is included in the salvation, you can see why I believe that everyone that is saved, is promised the kingdom.

I will be back on later tonight, God willing.
Tim

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Help me out here...

My Bible tells me the Spirit searches the hearts of men.

My Bible tells me God sent a Comforter and a Convictor.

But nowhere can I read that the Holy Spirit was sent to search for a Bride. As a matter of fact, God already knows who the Bride is, why would He need to search for it?

 

[J. Jump]

But nowhere can I read that the Holy Spirit was sent to search for a Bride.

It's called OT typology.

As a matter of fact, God already knows who the Bride is, why would He need to search for it?

Strawman alert . . . God also knew where Adam and Eve were when He asked where they were. That does not prove anything.

 

[Hope of Glory]

OK, here is my take on this....

One believes in order to receive salvation.
The only thing a person could do to lose salvation would be to reverse the procedure by which they were saved... (And I am talking about eternal salvation here, although I feel they are the same, I am saying this to explain it to the MEs here)
And I don't think someone can reverse it.

I agree with you 100% that it's irreversible. If it were reversible, then the Bible would have a lie, and as such, would be worthless. Acts 16:31 simply tells us to "believe [aorist; punctiliar action] on the Lord Jesus and you will [indicative; it will happen; there is no "maybe" about it] be saved."

But, notice that it doesn't use "believe" in the present tense. It's an event. You cannot stop believing in the aorist.

However, you can stop believing in the present tense, and "believe" in the present tense is used in a lot of places, and usually it involves works.

So, what happens when you stop believing? Why are those verbs subjunctive in John 3:16?

 

[webdog]

So, what happens when you stop believing? Why are those verbs subjunctive in John 3:16?

What if it's not whether one can stop believing...but whether one can really stop believing. Like Tim mentioned, a true believer can be influenced by demonic activity...probably to the point of "thinking" they are atheist, but buried deep down the true faith remains.

 

[tinytim]

However, you can stop believing in the present tense, and "believe" in the present tense is used in a lot of places, and usually it involves works.

I believe this is where carnal christianity begins...
HoG, I think we agree 90% of the time, I just disagree on the severity of the chastisement....

Is anyone else on here confused by all the off shoots, and detours that have been made? I am... I wish we could start a thread on one subject at a time... because it is hard for me to keep up with...

It seems like once I get back to post, the subject has been changed.

 

[J. Jump]

Is anyone else on here confused by all the off shoots, and detours that have been made? I am... I wish we could start a thread on one subject at a time... because it is hard for me to keep up with...

That's why I PMed you early on and was hoping we could converse via PM, becuase it is much easier to hold a conversation with one person when discussing these matters than it is to do it in a message board, because all kinds of rabbit trails start.

The reason being is the kingdom doctrine permiates the entire Bible. You can find it in every book of the Bible I suspect. I say suspect because I haven't studied each book in that great a detail as I have only been a word of the kingdom believer for about 10 months now.

You are always more than welcome to take me up on the PM/email/Instant message conversation