20 minute vid argues that Rev 20 teaches annihilationism!

[37818]

Where in the Bible does it teach that all people (including the unrighteous) have souls that will never die (that are immortal, that have eternal life)?

Nowhere in the word of God. What does not die is called their worm (singular). The prophecy of Jesus on cross the Psalms 22:1 when He is bearing our sins, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?". And His soul being dead per Isaiah 53:10, Psalms 22:6 says, "But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people." Which death Romans 5:8 He completed on the cross per John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Jesus declaring this, "It is finished" just before He died bodily, John 19:30.

 

[timtofly]

Does Jesus mention the worms and fire more than once? You might want to check that.

But more importantly, the one time He does mention it (Mark 9:48), He is quoting from the last verse in Isaiah. In that verse we see that the worms and fire are consuming dead bodies, not tormenting living people.

ESV Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Yet if there was nothing left for the worm or fire, they too would be annihilated. All 3 are interwoven and continually feed off of each other.

 

[timtofly]

I don't know if the fire is strictly symbolic, and my arguments do not depend on me knowing that. What I'm confident of is that the lake of fire in John's vision is a symbolic image telling us that the unsaved will die a second time.

The first time death was physical. The second time death will be of the spirit, spiritual. Right now those spirits are demons going around looking for a mind to posses. In the Lake of Fire those demons are reunited with the soul. If there is a physical body eternally attached, there would also be the continual worm/fly infestation as well. Do they have bodies in sheol now or just souls?

 

[timtofly]

Where in the Bible does it teach that all people (including the unrighteous) have souls that will never die (that are immortal, that have eternal life)?

Genesis 2:7

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul of every human is God breathed, at the moment of conception. There is no verse that claims an end.

John 3:5-7

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus explains that a soul has to come through the flesh first. Then there is the addition of the spirit.

When Adam disobeyed God he died that day both physically and spiritually. The soul was no longer in a permanent incorruptible physical body. The spirit was taken away, until the completion of God's plan at the Second Coming. The Second Death is the death of the spirit. Yet not annihilation. It becomes totally without God, a demon. Resurrection from the Lake of Fire the second death, would be the spiritual restoration back to a son of God.

No where are we told that God will restore them. But that is just as possible and plausible as annihilation. The point is we do not know what God has planned for them, except currently death is forever until that changes. To claim there is an end to the souls existence, or the body and spirit, is an assumption. What dies is the physical and spiritual aspects added to the soul. The soul is the part of God's image that is God. The body is the image of the Son. The spirit is the image of the Holy Spirit.

Our current condition is our soul is in a temporary corruptible physical body and our spirit is in God's presence. We are dead to the permanent incorruptible physical body, and the glorification of the spirit, a robe of white. These are what Paul claims awaits those in Christ on earth. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul claims the physical resurrection is immediate upon the first death, this dead physical body. The soul leaves this tent for the permanent building in Paradise.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Yet if there was nothing left for the worm or fire, they too would be annihilated. All 3 are interwoven and continually feed off of each other.

The fire is the eternal wrath of God....
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. (Deut. 4:24)

The "worms" are maggots....when maggots finish consuming their meal....They become flies.
derp de derp.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Genesis 2:7

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Yes, man came alive...he now possessed the Nephesh or "soul" or that "life-force" whatever which makes him a living being. This same Nephesh or "soul" spoken of is also given to animals. What is your Point?

The soul of every human is God breathed, at the moment of conception. There is no verse that claims an end.

Yes there is....Genesis
There are literally scores (probably hundreds of them).
Let's pick one:
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam ate....Adam died. That is so simple
If you are claiming that human "souls" are naturally immortal by nature you are not only directly (and heretically) teaching rank paganism, but you are expressly against all Christian tradition from the time of Genesis onwards.
Only GOD possesses immortality, and if God tells you you will die, you will die.
Just read the text:
1Ti 6:16
Who (that is God) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen
Humans are not immortal. That is heresy and blasphemy.
Only God is immortal and he chooses to gift life and immortality to whom he chooses...
Adam DIED when he sinned and he was removed from the life-giving tree of life.

When Adam disobeyed God he died that day both physically and spiritually.

Please show Scripture which teaches this.
Please demonstrate that there is a meaningful distinction between "physical" and "Spiritual" death and please show the Scripture which teaches Adam died in two distinct ways....

The soul was no longer in a permanent incorruptible physical body.

Please show the Scripture which teaches Adam was ever given an "incorruptible" physical body.
Where does the Scripture teach that Adam had such a thing?
If Adam had an incorruptible body....why did God cut him off from the tree of life????

The Second Death is the death of the spirit.

Please show us the Scripture where the "Second Death" is defined as the "death of the Spirit".

It becomes totally without God, a demon.

Are you now claiming that unbelieving humans become demons?
Is that merely an hyperbole meant for effect?

Resurrection from the Lake of Fire

What is a "Resurrection from the Lake of Fire"?
Are you claiming that all humans, upon natural death are consigned to this thing called the "Lake of Fire"?
Is Charles Spurgeon (who clearly awaits the Resurrection of his body, and in Christ hopefully awaits the Resurrection of his body unto immortality) in the "Lake of Fire"?

the second death, would be the spiritual restoration back to a son of God.

So, the "Second death"..........is now a 'restoration'?

Actually, the "Second Death" is a death.
It's dying....for the second time.

You see, the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death:
All mankind will therefore die
All mankind, however will be ressurected (believer and unbeliever alike) to face judgement.
They will ALL become alive again.
Jhn 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The saved will go to the New Jerusalem (where, incidentally John says the tree of life is). I wonder why he mentioned that tree?????
The damned will be thrown into a Lake of fire which John calls the "Second Death".
It's so simple a caveman can do it.

No where are we told that God will restore them.

God will not restore the damned...
They will be killed....both body and soul in gehenna.
I think I remember someone mentioning that in the gospels somewhere.
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The point is we do not know what God has planned for them,

We know exactly what God has planned for the damned...
He kills them (both body and soul)
They perish
They become the corpses of the slain
Their rotting corpses are feasted upon by maggots
Their rotting corpses are eaten by vultures and scavengers
The righteous will look upon their corpses and they will be an abhorence to them.
They are thrown into a Lake of fire which is a "second death" (which I take to mean a 'second' death)
They are like the chaff which is thrown into a furnace which is burned up.....
Need we go on?
There is the passage of being like a slug that salt is poured on....(one of my favourites) but, I'm thinking you can get it.

except currently death is forever until that changes.

It changes at the Resurrection before final judgement...That is Christianity 101

To claim there is an end to the souls existence,

Well, Jesus said God would kill it in Gehenna
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

or the body and spirit, is an assumption.

It's a belief Jesus Christ who is the Divine Son of God held, so....there's that.

What dies is the physical and spiritual aspects added to the soul. The soul is the part of God's image that is God. The body is the image of the Son. The spirit is the image of the Holy Spirit.

WOW!!!!!!!
That is clearly more than any and all Theologians throughout Christian history would claim to know.
Tertullian doesn't claim that kind of specificity
Augustine doesn't
Thomas Aquinas wouldn't dare
Anselm of Canterbury demures from asserting such things as Orthodoxy
Luther would hardly make that kind of an Anthropological claim
Spurgeon, Carson, Sproul, Bruce, Moo, Fee.....
Pick a name.....None of them would assert something like that.

Our current condition is our soul is in a temporary corruptible physical body and our spirit is in God's presence.

No. That's (I'll just call it heterodoxy)

We are dead

No, you're not.....at least as of the time you typed this.
You are actually quite alive.
In my humble opinion (I might be mistaken) only very much alive humans are capable of debating topics on the internet.....
I await correction from my betters.

to the permanent incorruptible physical body, and the glorification of the spirit, a robe of white. These are what Paul claims awaits those in Christ on earth. In 2 Corinthians 5, Paul claims the physical resurrection is immediate upon the first death, this dead physical body. The soul leaves this tent for the permanent building in Paradise.

That is absolutely heterodoxy.
The resurrection happens at the end of the age...all Christianity has understood and accepted this from the first Century onwards...It has never been debated.
Paul (who is now dead) awaits the resurrection with hope.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

That is a beautiful truth.....and Paul awaits that at the resurrection where he will be given an immortal body

But the damned are not made immortal
They are resurrected unto death.
They face judgement....
And God destroys them both body and soul in Gehenna...which is the second death.

That's what the Bible clearly and unequivocally in no uncertain terms teaches.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

and like the other HERESY known as "Atheism",

Atheism isn't "heresy". It's non-belief.
Atheism is simply a positive assertion that there is no such thing as a "God" (as normally defined in Western Culture) Namely an Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent creator of the Universe.
You undermine yourself by intentionally and repeatedly making insane correlations which anyone could see through.
How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

is becoming more popular today,

It was far more popular in Spurgeon's day...
It was far more popular an understanding in the 1st-3rd Centuries (that's historically provable).

as the end of this world draws to a close,

Assuming time is linear, and therefore approaching an inevitable end as in "history is going somewhere"....
The world has always been "drawing to a close".
Your statements are rhetoric...
They don't mean anything.
They are tautologies which express no meaningful thoughts on this topic.
"As this world draws to a close" is as meaningful a set of words strung together in sequence as:
"if you gotta go, you gotta go"
or
"It is what it is".
Stop murdering millions of innocent electrons with nonsense.
Not to put to fine a point on it, but, by the way you constructed your sentence the "end" was "drawing to a close" not the "world" as you intended.
The sentence was grammatically non-sensical.

and The Lord Jesus Christ Returns.

What does this have to do with anything Mark has asserted?
Why don't you respond to his video?
Why don't you intelligently respond to the points he made in his video?

They were quite simple:
They were "idiot-proof" inasmuch as he took great pains to make his points so obviously and vividly simple.

You have no rejoinder to the content of his video.

You are unqualified to speak intelligently in response to his video, because you have made no argument to respond to the assertions contained within it.

There is only one place for the origin of this teaching, and that is the father of LIES, the devil himself. Who has also deceived many millions onto another FALSE teaching, which is that he himself does not even exist!

Blah, Blah, you're an angry little man who hates it when someone attempts to make a reasoned argument which you respond to like liberals do...
1.) You seek to discredit the person in lieu of responding to the argument
2.) You appeal to authority to censor freedom of thought and reasonable biblical exegesis

You are the definition of Liberalism in Christianity........
The only tenent you fight against the most is Sola Scriptura

Someone makes an argument based upon biblical data...and you (while ignoring the content of their argument) seek to anathematize them.
You dishonor Christ Jesus my Lord.
I personally am thrilled at someone attempting to make an exegetical case for an idea.

Up to this point:
1.) You have ignored his case
2.) You have ignored the content of his video
3.) You have offered no counter-argument.

Do you know why "Conditional Immortality" is a growing trend right now????

It isn't because of Mark Corbett.
It's because of you.

I don't know him....never talked to him...probably never will...

He posted a humbly presented and respectfully asserted concise and clear exegesis of what he believed Scripture teaches on a topic......
That's all he did.

So far, no one has responded to his actual arguments posted in the video.
You just call him an atheist or something....
I encountered my first arguments for Conditional Immortality about 4 years ago. I saw a video Corbett posted about four years ago...but I was introduced to the topic by Glenn People's blog.

Mark didn't convince me...
His videos don't convince me.
Glenn Peoples doesn't convince me.

YOU DO.
Why?
Because you prove to us with every post that the adherents to Eternal Conscious Torment have absolutely no reply, and no argument.
Here's my advice to you which you will not take:
Do NOT respond to Corbett unless you have a reasoned response to the arguments put forth in his video wherein you can challenge his exegetical method etc...

If you continue your current path....someone who hasn't posted on this thread and never will, will google the topic, run across Mark's video and see what you respond with...
That person will be a believer of over twenty years who already agrees with you, and has assumed that Eternal Conscious Torment is biblical; but, who (for the first time in his/her life) finally ran across a cogent and exegetical case for Annihilationism. They are looking for reasoned responses....

Frankly, they want verification of what they already believe........They want to hear a cogent response to some argument they heard an annihilationist make which they were unprepared for.
When they hear your vitriolic unrelated rage. Mark's video appears far more reasonable and Scriptural.

Research WHY This movement is really growing.
Most annihilationists (and I now am one after 35 years of believing as you do)
Were not convinced by the likes of Mark Corbett....
They were convinced by seeing how pathetic, vapid, unprepared and shallow the response from believers in Eternal Conscious Torment were.

You convinced them.
You had no counter-argument....you didn't know one, you didn't prepare one.
Instead you erupt in a rage accusing Mark of Atheism.

You are driving people into his camp as you type.
Please continue.

 

[37818]

Atheism isn't "heresy". It's non-belief

So a false belief by labeling it a "non-belief" makes it not a false belief aka a heresy. LOL.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

So a false belief by labeling it a "non-belief" makes it not a false belief aka a heresy. LOL.

Correct.
Atheism isn't "heresy".

Jehova's Witnesses are "heretics".
Atheists aren't.
You may not like those definitions.
O.K. fine.
I don't care.

 

[37818]

Correct.
Atheism isn't "heresy".

Jehova's Witnesses are "heretics".
Atheists aren't.
You may not like those definitions.
O.K. fine.
I don't care.

Oh, with your definition heresy, it must be limited in some way, such as a false Christianity.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Oh, with your definition heresy, it must be limited in some way, such as a false Christianity.

I don't care what your definition is...
This is not an argument I will have with you.

Define "heresy" at your leisure.

I find nothing you say sufficiently interesting to argue with.

Define it how you want.
Good day sir.

 

[robycop3]

Rev. 20:10 should end this discussion for good: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

GOD only needs to say something ONCE to make it so. Nothing will make me change my mind. But JESUS has kept me from such a fate. I will be in the KINGDOM OF GOD forever & ever.

"Annihilationism" is FALSE! GOD says so in so many words! It doesn't matter WHAT any man says.

 

[timtofly]

Yes, man came alive...he now possessed the Nephesh or "soul" or that "life-force" whatever which makes him a living being. This same Nephesh or "soul" spoken of is also given to animals. What is your Point?

Yes there is....Genesis
There are literally scores (probably hundreds of them).
Let's pick one:
Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam ate....Adam died. That is so simple
If you are claiming that human "souls" are naturally immortal by nature you are not only directly (and heretically) teaching rank paganism, but you are expressly against all Christian tradition from the time of Genesis onwards.
Only GOD possesses immortality, and if God tells you you will die, you will die.
Just read the text:
1Ti 6:16
Who (that is God) only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen
Humans are not immortal. That is heresy and blasphemy.
Only God is immortal and he chooses to gift life and immortality to whom he chooses...
Adam DIED when he sinned and he was removed from the life-giving tree of life.

Please show Scripture which teaches this.
Please demonstrate that there is a meaningful distinction between "physical" and "Spiritual" death and please show the Scripture which teaches Adam died in two distinct ways....

Please show the Scripture which teaches Adam was ever given an "incorruptible" physical body.
Where does the Scripture teach that Adam had such a thing?
If Adam had an incorruptible body....why did God cut him off from the tree of life????

Please show us the Scripture where the "Second Death" is defined as the "death of the Spirit".

Are you now claiming that unbelieving humans become demons?
Is that merely an hyperbole meant for effect?

What is a "Resurrection from the Lake of Fire"?
Are you claiming that all humans, upon natural death are consigned to this thing called the "Lake of Fire"?
Is Charles Spurgeon (who clearly awaits the Resurrection of his body, and in Christ hopefully awaits the Resurrection of his body unto immortality) in the "Lake of Fire"?

So, the "Second death"..........is now a 'restoration'?

Actually, the "Second Death" is a death.
It's dying....for the second time.

You see, the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death:
All mankind will therefore die
All mankind, however will be ressurected (believer and unbeliever alike) to face judgement.
They will ALL become alive again.
Jhn 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The saved will go to the New Jerusalem (where, incidentally John says the tree of life is). I wonder why he mentioned that tree?????
The damned will be thrown into a Lake of fire which John calls the "Second Death".
It's so simple a caveman can do it.

God will not restore the damned...
They will be killed....both body and soul in gehenna.
I think I remember someone mentioning that in the gospels somewhere.
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

We know exactly what God has planned for the damned...
He kills them (both body and soul)
They perish
They become the corpses of the slain
Their rotting corpses are feasted upon by maggots
Their rotting corpses are eaten by vultures and scavengers
The righteous will look upon their corpses and they will be an abhorence to them.
They are thrown into a Lake of fire which is a "second death" (which I take to mean a 'second' death)
They are like the chaff which is thrown into a furnace which is burned up.....
Need we go on?
There is the passage of being like a slug that salt is poured on....(one of my favourites) but, I'm thinking you can get it.

It changes at the Resurrection before final judgement...That is Christianity 101

Well, Jesus said God would kill it in Gehenna
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It's a belief Jesus Christ who is the Divine Son of God held, so....there's that.

WOW!!!!!!!
That is clearly more than any and all Theologians throughout Christian history would claim to know.
Tertullian doesn't claim that kind of specificity
Augustine doesn't
Thomas Aquinas wouldn't dare
Anselm of Canterbury demures from asserting such things as Orthodoxy
Luther would hardly make that kind of an Anthropological claim
Spurgeon, Carson, Sproul, Bruce, Moo, Fee.....
Pick a name.....None of them would assert something like that.

No. That's (I'll just call it heterodoxy)

No, you're not.....at least as of the time you typed this.
You are actually quite alive.
In my humble opinion (I might be mistaken) only very much alive humans are capable of debating topics on the internet.....
I await correction from my betters.

That is absolutely heterodoxy.
The resurrection happens at the end of the age...all Christianity has understood and accepted this from the first Century onwards...It has never been debated.
Paul (who is now dead) awaits the resurrection with hope.


That is a beautiful truth.....and Paul awaits that at the resurrection where he will be given an immortal body

But the damned are not made immortal
They are resurrected unto death.
They face judgement....
And God destroys them both body and soul in Gehenna...which is the second death.

That's what the Bible clearly and unequivocally in no uncertain terms teaches.

Genesis 2:17

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Do you accept God's word or Satan's?

According to you, Adam's soul had to die that day as it is not immortal.

The death of a soul is both physical and spiritual.

Adam lost his living permanent incorruptible body (not made by human hands), and was given an earthly temporary corruptible body of death.


The second he ate, he became naked.

2 Corinthians 5:3

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

How does Paul describe being clothed?

 

[timtofly]

Rev. 20:10 should end this discussion for good: "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

GOD only needs to say something ONCE to make it so. Nothing will make me change my mind. But JESUS has kept me from such a fate. I will be in the KINGDOM OF GOD forever & ever.

"Annihilationism" is FALSE! GOD says so in so many words! It doesn't matter WHAT any man says.

The other two had been in the Lake of Fire for 1000 years and were still there after the 1000 years. They should have been annihilated at the beginning.

 

[robycop3]

The other two had been in the Lake of Fire for 1000 years and were still there after the 1000 years. They should have been annihilated at the beginning.

Right. That's why this whole discussion is moot & the annihilationists are wrong.