3 days 3 nights --- refresher course!

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Theme:
'The God-given and therefore eschatological imperative wholeness and fullness'* of the "three days and three nights" of the "three days" of “the plague” that “was upon Him”, "on the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" of which Christ “rose from the dead again"— “the Gospel ye have received and wherein ye stand, by which also ye are saved.”

(*With apologies to E. Lohmeyer for use out of context and without permission but absolutely appropriately, I believe.)

First Question…

WHICH, “SCRIPTURES”?

 

[Dr. Walter]

The only "scriptures" at this time were the Old Testament scriptures.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Fine, Which 'Scriptures' then of the 'Old Testament' Scriptures, besides "ALL that the prophets have spoken" Lk24:25?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Fine, Which 'Scriptures' then, more specifically, of the 'Old Testament' Scriptures, besides "ALL that the prophets have spoken" Lk24:25?

Answer:

The passover-Scriptures, foremost, Exodus 10 to chapter 15.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Fine, Which 'Scriptures' then, more specifically, of the 'Old Testament' Scriptures, besides "ALL that the prophets have spoken" Lk24:25?

Answer:

The passover-Scriptures, foremost, Exodus 10 to chapter 15.

Jesus explicitly referrred to the book of Jonah in regard to three days and three nights.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

WHICH, “SCRIPTURES”?

First Answer (at least from me)


Well, you know that the reference to scriptures must have been to those scriptures already in existence when this was written. So what verse are you quoting here? Is your reference to I Corinthians 15:4?

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

If that is your reference than we need to look at the book of first Corinthians. This epistle was written by Paul from Ephesus. Knowing the location and the author allows us to date the writing of this book between 53 and 57 AD. While some early copies of the gospels may have been present most scholars date Mark to 70 AD. So while I Cor comes after the gospels in your Bible I don’t believe we can simply say that he is talking about the gospel accounts here. Certainly firsthand accounts of the death and resurrection were being circulated, but they were not yet scripture.

So I believe you need to, as others have mentioned here, look to Old Testament scripture here.

Now you could look at I Cor 15:4 and try to break it down. The “according to the scriptures” phrase, does it apply to “the third day” or simply to “he was buried and that he rose again? The reference could be to either.

Based on the title of this thread I assume you want to apply it to “the third day” and your question is really, “Where in the old testament does it say Jesus would rise on the third day?”

If that is the case I can point you to only three passages.

1. Jonah we have already mentioned. This would be a stretch except that Jesus personally taught that this example could be used.
2. The second passage, also very vague is Genesis 22. Isaac, a picture of Christ is risen the third day of his journey with Abraham to sacrifice him. This makes great symbolism now that we know the third day, but is hard to buy as prophecy.
3. The best verse is found in Hosea 6. Verses 1-3 say:

[1] Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
[2] After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
[3] Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

If you look at this passage as prophetic of the death of Christ than the three days seems like a pretty specific prophecy, but like all prophecy, it is open to some interpretation.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The gospel of Luke preceded the book of Acts which terminates with Paul in Rome during his first imprisonment. The fact that Luke does not record Paul's journey into Spain or his second imprisonment in Rome would indicate that Luke must have written both his gospel and Acts prior to 64 A.D. If Mark had been written prior to the gospel of Luke then we are looking previous to 64 A.D. for the gospel of Mark.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

That is certainly possible Dr. Walter, however that still puts Luke and Mark being written after I Corinthians.

It is possible that Mark could have been written earlier, but I don't think that possibilty is enough to make the leap that the word "scriptures" in I Cor could apply to early copies of the gospels. More than likely when Paul wrote "scriptures" he was talking about the Old Testament.

 

[Dr. Walter]

That is certainly possible Dr. Walter, however that still puts Luke and Mark being written after I Corinthians.

It is possible that Mark could have been written earlier, but I don't think that possibilty is enough to make the leap that the word "scriptures" in I Cor could apply to early copies of the gospels. More than likely when Paul wrote "scriptures" he was talking about the Old Testament.

I think you are right.

 

[Chowmah]

The best verse is found in Hosea 6. Verses 1-3 say:[/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

If you look at this passage as prophetic of the death of Christ than the three days seems like a pretty specific prophecy, but like all prophecy, it is open to some interpretation.

HOSEA 6 [1] Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.[2] After two days will he revive us: in THE THIRD DAY HE WILL RAISE US UP, AND WE SHALL LIVE IN HIS SIGHT.[3] Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH.

I believe Hosea 6 is a future prophecy

JAMES 5 [7] BE PATIENT therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, UNTIL HE RECEIVE THE EARLY AND LATTER RAIN.[8] Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.[9] Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

What is this new testament scripture speaking of? The early and latter rain? Its something to be received.

DEUT.11 [13] And it shall come to pass, IF YE SHALL HEARKEN DILIGENTLY UNTO MY COMMANDMENTS which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,[14] That I WILL GIVE YOU THE RAIN of your land in his due season, THE FIRST RAIN AND THE LATTER RAIN, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

Rain in due season. The first rain and the latter rain, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments

HOSEA 6 [1] Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.[2] After two days will he revive us: in THE THIRD DAY HE WILL RAISE US UP, AND WE SHALL LIVE IN HIS SIGHT.[3] Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and HE SHALL COME UNTO US AS THE RAIN, AS THE LATTER AND FORMER RAIN UNTO THE EARTH.

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. One day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. A prophecy in the future which comes at Christs return. No umbrella will keep this rain off ya.

JOEL 2 [2] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, for it is nigh at hand;
JOEL 2 [19] Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:[20] But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.[21] Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.[22] Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.[23] Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, THE FORMER RAIN, AND THE LATTER RAIN IN THE FIRST MONTH.

Just as it says in Hosea. Its gonna be rainin come the Day of the Lord.

LEVITICUS 26 [1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the Lord your God. [2] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord. [3] If ye walk in my statutes, AND KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, AND DO THEM; [4] THEN I WILL GIVE YOU RAIN IN DUE SEASON, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.

If you keep My sabbaths and if you keep My commandments you will recieve rain in due season. The early and latter rain spoken of in James and Hosea.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

AH! BaptistBoard is still the best, CHRISTIAN discussion forum in cyberspace!

Fine; we have received the OT Scriptures mostly referred to with regard to the "three days", "on the third day" of which, "Christ, according to the Scriptures rose again". They are Mt12:40 // Jonah chapter 2, and Hosea 6:1-3, more or less // 1Cor15:3-4.

But no one has yet reacted to mention of Ex10-15, especially 10:21 to 12:51, specifically 10:22-23 // Is53:8, "stricken" = "stricken with PLAGUE".

Is53:8 - "cut off (life)" // Ex12:6,15a "The first first day ye shall remove leaven" Aviv 14;

Is53:9 "He made his grave" // Ex12:15b "The first day ye shall eat unleavened bread", Lv23:6 Aviv 15;

Is53:10,11 "He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied" // Lv23:11,15 "Ye shall bring the First Sheaf and wave it an Offering before the LORD" Aviv 16.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Let us not go too fast; too many Scriptures at once, may be confusing, since most of us will have to think about these Scriptures in a way we have not before thought about them. My antidote for the possibility of getting confused now, is a slogan I noticed on a sugar sachet in a tea garden while having a little refreshment with my wife. ‘Discovery is to see what everyone else all the time have been seeing; then to think what no one else has thought.’

Beginning with what Dr Walter has observed, “Dr Walter:
Jesus explicitly referred to the book of Jonah in regard to three days and three nights.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Yes; it’s correct. But look at it this way, Jesus explicitly referred to “the PROPHET Jonah” in regard to his OWN experience of the — prophetic — MEANING, of the “ three days and three nights” which Jonas experienced AS, having been “in the heart of the earth”. “There shall NO sign be given to an adulterous generation seeking after a sign, but the sign OF THE PROPHET, Jonas.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

“…of the prophet….”
“…Him, being delivered by the DETERMINATE counsel and FORE-knowledge of GOD (‘prophecy’),
ye have taken and … have crucified and slain…
(“on the first day they killed the passover”
Mk14:12 Lk22:7 Mt26:17 Jn13:1, 19:14,28 1Cor11:23 Aviv 14):

“…God … having loosed the pains of death because it was not possible that He should be holden of it (IN THE GRAVE, Ex12:9,10,14,16c “MUST eat” and, “that only that MUST be done of you” Lk23:50 Mk15:42 Mt27:57 Jn19:31,38 Aviv 15) …

“…God … HATH RAISED UP. (Aviv 16)

“For David … being a PROPHET …
SPEAKETH CONCERNING HIM…
I FORESAW the Lord”! (Acts 2:30,25)

Then Peter and David in unison “rejoice” and record ONCE MORE, the PROPHETIC events, of the PASSOVER, retrospectively:

Resurrection Aviv 16:
“The Lord is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my heart was glad….”

Burial Aviv 15:
“Moreover my flesh shall rest in hope: because Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption…” in the GRAVE!

Crucifixion Aviv 14 being presupposed, while the RESURRECTION is being emphasised by Peter.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But the point is here: In Mt12:40 Jesus emphasized ALL PROPHETS by having mentioned only the one representative “prophet”, “the PROPHET Jonas”; as also Peter emphasized ALL PROPHETS by having referred to only the one “prophet”, the “PROPHET … David”. And in each case the REAL supposed ‘prophecy’, is the “SCRIPTURES” and the Scriptures concerning the PASSOVER OF YAHWEH.

“If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.” Jesus could just as well have said in Mt12:40, ‘For as Moses and all the prophets foretold as thick darkness covered all the land three days, so shall the Son of Man be three days in the heart of the earth.’

But of course, Jesus did not do that; He must have had very good reason why not, although there would have been no contradiction or discrepancy if He did.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Re: North Carolina Tentmaker, “Now you could look at I Cor 15:4 and try to break it down. The “according to the scriptures” phrase, does it apply to “the third day” or simply to “he was buried and that he rose again? The reference could be to either.

Based on the title of this thread I assume you want to apply it to “the third day” and your question is really, “Where in the old testament does it say Jesus would rise on the third day?””

From these various and varying observations and suppositions some important aspects condensate to: 1) “The “according to the scriptures” phrase,” which is of utmost importance. By the Scriptures shall we know if an explanation of the “three days and three nights” is true, or, false. And believe me there are legions of them, ALL, false! We shall therefore have to find some rules or tests to ‘prove’ the genuineness of explanations. That is a massive undertaking by itself, and I won’t at this stage even try get to it. But ‘The “according to the scriptures”’ principle being of paramount and basic importance to test ‘expositions’ of the “three days” by, it right from the start may not be postponed both to be noted and applied.

So, let’s apply ‘The “according to the scriptures”’ principle straight away to the present referenced statement! Nothing is to fear if it is “according to the Scriptures”! And nothing sinister motivates us; we trust one another for being Christians who after all are everyone seeking for the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ in the Scriptures. (May I at this point assure you how very tired I am because of defiant distrust from some Christians! I really won’t through this discussion like to embark on a mission to ‘disclose the bias, error and hypocrisy’ in my fellow believers’ views or characters. I’m too spiritually drained by that kind of ‘Bible study’ already, promise.)

And let me from the beginning repeat my appreciation for BaptistBoard and its writers for the excellence of their behaviour and the high standard of their conversations. I missed you greatly during my last recess on BB.

“According to the Scriptures” and the PASSOVER Scriptures then….

“The “according to the scriptures” phrase, does it apply to “the third day” or simply to “he was buried and that he rose again? The reference could be to either.”

Paul, I always say, is the king of Ellipses. Scarcely a dozen of any of his words may be read or one will meet with virtually halve as may incidences of Ellipsis. 1Cor15:3 offers an excellent example of this ‘Pauline style’. I shall write his written words in capital letters, and insert the Ellipses in small letters….

“MOREOVER, BRETHREN, I DECLARE UNTO YOU THE GOSPEL the gospel WHICH I PREACHED UNTO YOU, WHICH gospel ALSO YE HAVE RECEIVED, AND which gospel WHEREIN YE STAND; BY WHICH gospel ALSO YE ARE SAVED, IF YE KEEP IN MEMORY WHAT gospel I PREACHED UNTO YOU, UNLESS YE HAVE BELIEVED the gospel IN VAIN. FOR I DELIVERED UNTO YOU FIRST OF ALL THAT gospel WHICH I ALSO RECEIVED,

the gospel HOW THAT CHRIST ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES DIED FOR OUR SINS:

AND the gospel how THAT HE according to the Scriptures WAS BURIED for our sins:

AND the gospel how THAT HE THE THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES gospel for our sins ROSE AGAIN.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It is obvious “The “according to the scriptures” phrase” ‘ALSO’, must be taken into account elliptically, and the following reading will make it clear…. (This time I’ll write Paul’s written words in small letters, and his Ellipses in capital letters….)

“1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel THE ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL which I preached unto you, which ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL also ye have received and WHICH ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL wherein ye stand;
2by which ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL also ye are saved, if ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES ye keep in memory what I ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL preached unto you, unless ye have believed THE ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL in vain.
3For I ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES delivered unto you first of all that ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL which I also ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES received, THE ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES GOSPEL

3bHow that Christ according to the Scriptures (GOSPEL) died for our sins:

4a and that ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES (GOSPEL) ALSO, He, CHRIST, was buried, FOR OUR SINS:

4b and that ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES (GOSPEL) ALSO
he the third day according to the Scriptures GOSPEL FOR OUR SINS ALSO rose again.”


<FONT color=black><FONT face="Times New Roman">EVERYTHING that Paul wrote, he wrote “according to the Scriptures” which “also” happened to be “the Gospel”; and EVERYTHING that Christ did and that happened with Him and to Him, was this GOSPEL, “according to the Scriptures”— “the imperative

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Therefore,
Re: North Carolina Tentmaker, “If that is the case I can point you to only three passages.”

We now should recognize, that should our “question really (be), “Where in the old testament does it say Jesus would rise on the third day?””, the answer should be: ALL the Scriptures and the WHOLE of the Scriptures, since we “want to apply” the subject and “title of this thread” – ““the third day”” – to its Fulfiller, its Essential Fulfillment, and prophetic FULLNESS, which is Jesus Christ, “our Passover” and “Lamb of God”— by “explicitly” ‘applying’, the PASSOVER OF YAHWEH-SCRIPTURES.

BUT, ALL the Scriptures are thus invoked, not only the Old Testament Scriptures; rather all THE WORD OF GOD-Scriptures, so that the NEW Testament Scriptures LIKE the Old, are ‘applied’, involved, and equally valid. Jesus Christ in fulfillment of the Passover of Yahweh-Scriptures, is as much and in fact in greater measure, the Measure and Standard and Fulfillment of ALL THE SCRIPTURES HE, being The Passover of Yahweh and SUBJECT of the “three days and three nights” “three days” “on the third day” of which He “according to the Scriptures” ALL the Scriptures the passover-Scriptures, “ROSE AGAIN”. Division of the Scriptures DISAPPEAR in Jesus Christ; the NEW in fact TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER the Old Testament Scriptures through Christ’s BEING ITS PASSOVER FULLNESS-and-ESSENCE. Over-stressing the Passover-of-Yahweh-essentiality of ALL the Scriptures, is impossible, and a Christian never need fear he may be too obsessed with the Scriptures or the Lamb of the Passover-of-Yahweh.

Suppose the Scriptures that are not in Essence the Passover-of Yahweh Scriptures, and suppose a Christ-less Christianity. Suppose a Scriptures that not as a whole is the Scriptures about the “three days” of THE “three days and three nights” “on the third day” of which “Christ rose again”, and suppose a Christ-less Scriptures.

The aspect of the “three days”-essentiality of the Christian faith must needs fall in the same category of the Christian Confession of the Incarnation of the Word. The world God so loved that He gave His Only Begotten Son for to save it, is OUR world of both matter, ‘flesh’, and space, ‘life’, and TIME, ‘order’. God loved THIS world of His creation— the world of His involvement – ‘tabernacling’ – in TIME and ORDER like as in the likeness of man in his fallen, earthly, corruptible and mortal state. In fact, this aspect of the time and order of our world and time, is the one (and only) aspect of “the PROPHETS” whereby it shall be proved and sealed that Jesus Christ is the Messiah of God. That is what Jesus SAID, in Mt12:40. No sign shall be given men, but of the Messiah in the FULLNESS AND FULFILLMENT OF GOD’S OWN TIMES.

Put simple:
Q:
Is Jesus the Christ of God?
A:
Has He obeyed the predestination of God concerning the Passover of Yahweh, the “three days and three nights”, “according to the Scriptures”?

Not at all surprising therefore, is it that Our Confession included, "on the third day rose"!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Gerhard,

I have read this and the following posts and they don't make much sense to me. What is your point?

Let us not go too fast; too many Scriptures at once, may be confusing, since most of us will have to think about these Scriptures in a way we have not before thought about them. My antidote for the possibility of getting confused now, is a slogan I noticed on a sugar sachet in a tea garden while having a little refreshment with my wife. ‘Discovery is to see what everyone else all the time have been seeing; then to think what no one else has thought.’

Beginning with what Dr Walter has observed, “Dr Walter:
Jesus explicitly referred to the book of Jonah in regard to three days and three nights.

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

Yes; it’s correct. But look at it this way, Jesus explicitly referred to “the PROPHET Jonah” in regard to his OWN experience of the — prophetic — MEANING, of the “ three days and three nights” which Jonas experienced AS, having been “in the heart of the earth”. “There shall NO sign be given to an adulterous generation seeking after a sign, but the sign OF THE PROPHET, Jonas.”

 

[Chowmah]

Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

The question i keep asking is how does good friday till sunday morn equal 3 days and 3 nights. Its really not even close. If you go by whats in the scriptures you cant even get a part of 3 days.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard,

I have read this and the following posts and they don't make much sense to me. What is your point?

GE:

Dr Walter, North Carolina Tentmaker, said, “...I can point you to only three passages.”

I have tried to show, No, it's ALL the Scriptures, the passover-Scriptures, "specifically" (was the word I think you used, Dr Walter, or something like it). And the HEART of the passover-Scriptures – in the Old Testament – is Exodus 10 to 15!

In other words, Jesus in Mt12:40 MORE refers to and applies the fact of "the PROPHET Jonas" on Himself than the fact of "three days and three nights" BECAUSE it not merely is "three days and three nights" (at random)— it is the fact of THE, "three days and three nights" of ALL the Scriptures about the Passover of Yahweh in and through Jesus Christ.