3 Differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ

[Darrell C]

Be cautious and judicious with "literalism". It can quickly paint one into a corner. But that said, we are all literalists when it suits us and suits our paradigm. When it doesn't we tend to find "rational" reasons not to be so.

I take the view that the teachings are literal though figurative speech, metaphor, hyperbole, et cetera are used to convey those teachings. What is in question is which parts are the focus of what is literal. Satan may not literally be a dragon or a serpent, any more than a High Priest might be a whited wall, but the point should be clear all the same.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Then the Rapture is still a mystery because the Apostle Paul did not teach a "snatching away of the Church by force!"

Paul taught a catching away and stated directly that he was showing us a mystery.

That is not up for debate.

The concept of the Rapture is simply made up "out of whole cloth" to support Darby's false assertion that God has two peoples.

The fascination with Darby is usually limited to those opposed to the Rapture. I do not think I have ever seen the first Pre-Tribulational Rapturist quoting Darby...or any other doctrinal position he taught.

We know that we will be changed to be like unto Christ, and Paul clearly depicts an event in which the dead in Christ rise, then those who are alive are caught up to the clouds to be with Christ.

Rejecting the Rapture outright is the least tenable position one can take, in my view.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Do you interpret the following Scripture literally?

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice this Scripture says: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth

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Yes it is literal, and reiterates...


Daniel 12:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Keep in mind that prophecy does not demand an immediate fulfillment, and often there are partial fulfillments that take place before the final fulfillment. A good example of this is the Coming of Messiah: He has come but not in fulfillment of the prophecy which deals with Israel on a national basis. That is yet to come but one could take the position that this prophecy has been fulfilled to its conclusion.

Hence "the hour" spoken of does not have to have its fulfillment close to the time of the statement, though we do see that there was a fulfillment soon after that:


Matthew 27:51-53

King James Version (KJV)

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


But the conclusion of that "hour" awaits the end of the Millennial Kingdom. And we can see a parallel to Paul's teaching and this very statement of Christ, because the dead in Christ will hear His voice and rise from their graves. Then we which remain shall be caught up and meet Him in the air, and so shall we be ever more with the Lord.

Take comfort in that, my friend.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Paul taught a catching away and stated directly that he was showing us a mystery.

That is not up for debate.

That is what this thread is about. Show the Scripture where Paul says there will be a pre-reibulation 'snatching away" of the Church!


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[OldRegular]

1. There is a difference in the place Christ meets believers

A. At the rapture Christ meets Christians in the air (I Thess 4:16-17).
B. At the second coming Christ meets Christians on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:2-4)

Consider first the passage from 1 Thessalonians:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13. But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

First it is important to understand that the Apostle Paul is writing to the Saints at Thessalonica, not to the world in general. He is not only praising the Church for their faith but comforting them in their troubles. This is typical of many of Paul's letters.

In Verse 13 Paul indicates that the Saints in Thessalonica were concerned about their loved ones that had already died. What was their concern? We can only surmise from the succeeding words by Paul that they were concerned about the resurrection of the bodies of these Saints, these loved ones. Paul says, and I repeat: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. He is contrasting the sorrow over the death of a Saint to the sorrow of the unbeliever or those who have no hope. The point is, and it is significant, that Paul is addressing the concerns of believers only.

In Verse 14 Paul tells what will happen when Jesus Christ Returns: Those who died in Jesus Christ He will bring with Him, obviously speaking of the should of the believers.

In verse 15 Paul simply states that those believers still alive when Jesus Christ returns will not precede those who have already died. Whatever happens will happen to the dead believer first.

Now consider what Paul says about this Return or Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Verse 16! For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is a noisy Second Coming and this is consistent with other Scripture regarding the Second Coming:

1. Jesus Christ shall descend from Heaven with a SHOUT!

2. The shout will be accompanied by the voice of the archangel!

3. The Return or Second Coming will be accompanied by the trump, or trumpet, of God!

Now where else in Scripture do we see such a picture of the Return, the Second Coming, of Jesus Christ? But first consider what Paul tells the Church at Thessalonica occurs simultaneous with the above resurrection!

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
1. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The Apostle Paul states that this Second Coming and resurrection, the Day of the Lord, will be as a thief in the night. Now some dispensationalists have said that this means the so-called Rapture will be secret but Paul has already told us it will be noisy: A SHOUT, the voice of the arch angel, and the trump of God! The term “thief in the night simply means that the timing is unknown. This is clearly shown in the following Scripture.

Then what happens? The unbeliever is not ready. Paul says: For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. The Apostle Peter in his description of the Second Coming in 2 Peter 3:1ff gives a similar attitude of the unbeliever in Verses 3&4: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Clearly the Apostle Paul in his words of comfort to the Church at Thessalonica is talking about the Resurrection at the Second Coming of the Lord as is the Apostle Peter in1 Peter 5:1ff. Paul speaks briefly of the fate that befalls the unbeliever; Peter gives much more detail of the catastrophic events at the Second Coming!

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Now consider the following Scripture concerning the Return of the Lord:

Matthew 24:30-31
30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1. The Sign of the Son of Man, Jesus Christ will be seen!

2. All the tribes of the Earth shall mourn!

3. They shall see Jesus Christ coming in the "clouds of heaven" with "power and great glory"!

4. He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet to gather His elect.

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Then there is that wonderful discussion of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ and the necessity of that resurrection followed by a discussion of the resurrection at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ!

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice two important events mentioned:

1. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Now in the passage from 1 Thessalonians nothing is said about any change taking place. Here Paul tells us that a change must take place.

2. Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul is telling us that when Jesus Christ Returns there will be no more death.

3. And then there is that trumpet again only this time Paul is more explicit because he says this is the last trumpet. at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound.

Now how many trumpets does God have? Well the Book of Revelation tells us that he has Seven Trumpets.

Revelation 8:2. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Revelation 8:6. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Continued:

 

[OldRegular]

Continued from previous post!

1. There is a difference in the place Christ meets believers

A. At the rapture Christ meets Christians in the air (I Thess 4:16-17).
B. At the second coming Christ meets Christians on the Mount of Olives (Zech 14:2-4)

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Now if we read in Revelation about the sounding of these seven Trumpets we see that certain things happen. But now we are concerned with what happens when the Seventh and last Trumpet sounds.

Revelation 11:15-19
15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Now it should be obvious that when the Seventh Trumpet sounds time as we know it will be no more.

1. We see that the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of Jesus Christ.

2. We see the judgment of the dead, reward to the Saints and destruction to the unbeliever, the Great White throne Judgment!

3. A wonderful picture of the culmination of God's redemption of His Elect!

There is one common theme through all of the above pictures of the Return, the Second Coming, of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is noisy, always accompanied by the sound of a trumpet. In two accounts that Trumpet is identified as the Last Trumpet! There is no justification in the least to assume that the passage from 1 Thessalonians 4 is talking about the "taking by force" of the Saints from this world prior to any Great tribulation. In fact the words of the Lord Jesus Christ tell us clearly: John 16:33. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

We are promised tribulation in this world and that has been the experience of the true believers in general since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, actually since Cain slaughtered Abel. We in this country have been blessed with little in the way of persecution yet in the Middle East Christians are being beheaded because they will not renounce Jesus Christ. Even more strange is that Christians in this country, more than any other nation where Christianity exists, have embraced the false doctrine of the Rapture of the Church so they will escape tribulation!

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Now consider the simple but significant words of the Lord Jesus Christ regarding the Resurrection:

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Sadly so many in their futile attempt to defend the pre-trib-rapture will split the above into two resurrections separated by 1007 years but the Scripture clearly states: the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;

The Apostle Paul in his defense before the Roman governor:

Acts 24:14, 15
14. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15. And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


{A} resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

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[OldRegular]

I am surprised this is presented as an effort to disprove the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, as it is so poorly thought out and fraught with evident, basic error that one might think it was offered by...an unbeliever, who is completely lacking in Bible knowledge.

You are questioning a person's salvation, I assume Greektim. If you were other than a pre-rib-dispensationalist that would be grounds for banishment!

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[OldRegular]

But the conclusion of that "hour" awaits the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Which we are experiencing at the present time.

And we can see a parallel to Paul's teaching and this very statement of Christ, because the dead in Christ will hear His voice and rise from their graves. Then we which remain shall be caught up and meet Him in the air, and so shall we be ever more with the Lord.

The Scripture says that all the dead will hear His voice and come forth! Live and learn!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Take comfort in that, my friend.

I take comfort in the fact that, though exposed to pre-trib-dispensationalism invented by John Nelson Darby, God Graciously kept me from falling for that false doctrine!

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[OldRegular]

The fascination with Darby is usually limited to those opposed to the Rapture. I do not think I have ever seen the first Pre-Tribulational Rapturist quoting Darby...or any other doctrinal position he taught.

Then they are simply ignorant of the inventor of pre-trib-dispensationalism!

We know that we will be changed to be like unto Christ, and Paul clearly depicts an event in which the dead in Christ rise, then those who are alive are caught up to the clouds to be with Christ.

At the Second coming of Jesus Christ and the general resurrection and general {White Throne} Judgment

Rejecting the Rapture outright is the least tenable position one can take, in my view.

You are entitled to your view but it is an unBiblical view!

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[OldRegular]

Farewell to the Rapture
(N.T. Wright, Bible Review, August 2001. Reproduced by permission of the author)
Little did Paul know how his colorful metaphors for Jesus’ second coming would be misunderstood two millennia later.
The American obsession with the second coming of Jesus — especially with distorted interpretations of it — continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the Left Behind books appears puzzling, even bizarre[1]. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal “rapture” in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been “left behind.” This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm

Wright makes an interesting observation in the above paragraph. England, where John Nelson Darby invented pre-trib-dispensationalism, rejects that false doctrine; wisely in my opinion! Here in the United States people clutched at "that pre-trib-straw" like they were going down for the last time.

Particularly pertinent ar his remarks

This pseudo-theological version of Home Alone has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.

The paternal grandparents of one of my lovely granddaughters are fine Church of God people, though badly and sadly wrong in their eschatology. The paternal grandmother gave one of the Left Behind series to my granddaughter {about 13 years old at the time}. She became afraid to go to sleep at night. I told my daughter the cause. My granddaughter laid the fictitious book aside and was able to sleep peacefully once more. God is good!

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[OldRegular]

Be cautious and judicious with "literalism". It can quickly paint one into a corner. But that said, we are all literalists when it suits us and suits our paradigm. When it doesn't we tend to find "rational" reasons not to be so.

It painted the pre-trib-dispensationalists into a corner. Then they started digging a hole to get out! But they just keep on digging that hole, deeper and deeper, hoping for the Rapture.

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[TCassidy]

What seems to have been overlooked here is that, in the Greek, the word "meet" is not a verb, but a noun. The Greek reads "εις απαντησιν" best understood to mean "a meeting." Literally "into (a) meeting."

This verse is not setting a time table for the catching away of the saints, but rather is part of a passage that is addressing the concerns of the people in the church at Thessalonika regarding those who had already passed away. Paul is telling those still living that both the living and the departed will be caught up into (a) meeting above the Earth.

The point is not the time of the catching away, but the fact of the meeting. Thus Paul says to comfort one another with these words. Be comforted in knowing your departed loved ones will be in the meeting too.

You will all have to look elsewhere for bible evidence for the timing of the catching away.

 

[OldRegular]

What seems to have been overlooked here is that, in the Greek, the word "meet" is not a verb, but a noun. The Greek reads "εις απαντησιν" best understood to mean "a meeting." Literally "into (a) meeting."

This verse is not setting a time table for the catching away of the saints, but rather is part of a passage that is addressing the concerns of the people in the church at Thessalonika regarding those who had already passed away. Paul is telling those still living that both the living and the departed will be caught up into (a) meeting above the Earth.

The point is not the time of the catching away, but the fact of the meeting. Thus Paul says to comfort one another with these words. Be comforted in knowing your departed loved ones will be in the meeting too.

You will all have to look elsewhere for bible evidence for the timing of the catching away.

I believe it is is when the Seventh Trumpet sounds. Lot of things happen concurrently when that Seventh Trumpet sounds.

Then the Seventh Trumpet is consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 15:51-57
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

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[Darrell C]

That is what this thread is about. Show the Scripture where Paul says there will be a pre-reibulation 'snatching away" of the Church!


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As I said, you know the Rapture passages, and you know that there is no singular passage that states a Pre-trib Rapture, yet you have been shown the parts, I am sure, very often.

You have yet to show why there will be no Kingdom after Christ's First Return, as taught in the Gospels, as well as in Revelation. You will need to do that in order to negate the sequence of events in Revelation where we see the offspring of physical inhabitants ...not join forces with a recently released Satan. As we look at those events we see the impossibility of this...



1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Again, we are dealing with a simple point: here the Church is raptured in it's entirety, both those that have died as well as those still living. If this happens prior to the Eternal State, then we have to see many promises and prophecies washed out and unfulfilled, and the Lord simply does not do that. If this takes place just after the Tribulation...not even the prophecy of Revelation maintains a cohesive nature.

The Rapture must take place prior to the Tribulation to allow for physical descendants that rebel against God in the final event that leads to the Great White Throne Judgment, which takes place after this creation passes away...


Revelation 20:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.




...and just prior to the Eternal State which is described in Revelation 21.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
I am surprised this is presented as an effort to disprove the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, as it is so poorly thought out and fraught with evident, basic error that one might think it was offered by...an unbeliever, who is completely lacking in Bible knowledge.

You are questioning a person's salvation, I assume Greektim. If you were other than a pre-rib-dispensationalist that would be grounds for banishment!

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Assumption is a killer, lol.

I believe I made it clear in the post that I was addressing the article, and the only thing stated directly to GreekTim was the final question as to whether he also believes that the Lord does not return until the Eternal State is realized.

I reiterate that the author's commentary was poor, and is reminiscent of commentary offered by unbelievers, who lack knowledge which would prevent some of the gross error seen in the article. It reminds me of a Hollywood understanding of Scripture.

Doesn't mean I believe the author is unsaved.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C

But the conclusion of that "hour" awaits the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

Which we are experiencing at the present time.

So we se these...





Isaiah 65

King James Version (KJV)


19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.



25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.


...fulfilled?

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
And we can see a parallel to Paul's teaching and this very statement of Christ, because the dead in Christ will hear His voice and rise from their graves. Then we which remain shall be caught up and meet Him in the air, and so shall we be ever more with the Lord.

The Scripture says that all the dead will hear His voice and come forth! Live and learn!

John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes, in the resurrection that takes place here:


Revelation 20:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


However, we also see a resurrection here:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Which shows precedent that the "general resurrection" which takes place at the end of the Millennial Kingdom is not the only resurrection that will take place, as you are trying to teach.

And we know that the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs is not the Rapture because only the dead among the believing are raised, making that a separate resurrection from the Rapture. They are raised at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, and it is clearly stated that the "rest of the dead" who are the unbelieving are not raised in the "general resurrection" until one thousand years later. The living among the believers who live through the Tribulation enter into the Millennial Kingdom in their physical bodies, produce offspring, from among whom we see those that take part in this...


Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


We have to ignore what is written in these chapters in order to produce a view that denies the Millennial Kingdom as a period of one thousand years that follows the Tribulation and demands a single resurrection that takes place prior to the creation of the New Heavens and Earth. While I can understand why one might want to embrace such a view, that doesn't mean it is a tenable position that cannot be shown to be in error and overlooking quite a bit of prophecy.

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Take comfort in that, my friend.

I take comfort in the fact that, though exposed to pre-trib-dispensationalism invented by John Nelson Darby, God Graciously kept me from falling for that false doctrine!

You may want to start talking with some living saints who embrace the Pre-Trib Rapture, rather than continuously mounting your campaign against someone who is dead.

You can begin by addressing the points raised to you in the posts I have already provided. I will answer your posts from yesterday but this is going nowhere so I am afraid I will have to leave you to your campaign.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
The fascination with Darby is usually limited to those opposed to the Rapture. I do not think I have ever seen the first Pre-Tribulational Rapturist quoting Darby...or any other doctrinal position he taught.

Then they are simply ignorant of the inventor of pre-trib-dispensationalism!

No, many of us are quite familiar with the teachings of Paul, and spend our time in the Books of the Bible, rather than books about the Bible.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is every bit as much a First Century Doctrine as salvation by grace alone is.

Originally Posted by Darrell C
We know that we will be changed to be like unto Christ, and Paul clearly depicts an event in which the dead in Christ rise, then those who are alive are caught up to the clouds to be with Christ.

At the Second coming of Jesus Christ and the general resurrection and general {White Throne} Judgment

The problem with that view is that we see at least two resurrections which can reasonably be viewed as events of glorification prior to the Great White Throne: the Rapture of the Two Witnesses and the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

Kind of hinders a view that holds to a dogmatic adherence to a singular general resurrection, as well as ignores Paul's very teaching:



1 Corinthians 15:51-52

King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The Resurrection of the dead was not something unknown to Old Testament Saints, and in fact I have mentioned that it was a foundational principle in which the very view you take, which the writer of Hebrews exhorts those he rebukes to leave (going on to perfection in knowledge of Christ).

Yet Paul reveals a mystery which clearly details the glorification of the saints. In view is a resurrection which involves both those that have died in Christ as well as those that are still alive. It does not correspond to either the Resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs nor the resurrection of the dead (no-one living is mentioned though non-mention is not a compelling argument) mentioned in relation to the Great White Throne Judgment.

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Rejecting the Rapture outright is the least tenable position one can take, in my view.

You are entitled to your view but it is an unBiblical view!

It is not my view, it is the conclusion drawn by leaving the Word of God intact and harmonizing everything we are given in regards to eschatological events. As I said before it is Biblical and irrefutable.

And I guess, since the Scripture I have provided is never answered, there is little reason to continue simply answering your assertions. Until you actually deal with the presentation supporting the Pre-Tribulation Rapture this conversation will remain one-sided and fruitless.


God bless.

 

[DHK]

Franklin Graham Says Bible End Times Prophecy of 'Distress of Nations' Reflects World's Conflicts Today

The Rev. Franklin Graham believes that the numerous world conflicts people are witnessing today reflect passages in the Bible that talk about the end times and the "distress of nations."

"The Bible tells us that in the end times there will be 'distress of nations with perplexity,'" Graham said on Facebook, referring to Luke 21:25.

The passage reads: "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring."

Graham added that "this is certainly the case today." He offered as examples: "The meltdown of the Middle East. The rise of anti-Semitism in Europe and here in the America. China and Russia building their military at cosmic speed. The financial crises worldwide. The political crisis in Washington."

The evangelical preacher continued: "Israel is desperate to have peace, but the Bible says 'they will seek peace but there shall be none.' There is only one ultimate, eternal solution — Jesus Christ and Him alone."

Graham has spoken out on current international crises, like the rise of terror group ISIS and the persecution of Christians, a number of times in recent months.

He has accused President Barack Obama of refusing to identify ISIS as Islamic, and warned that Obama's "sympathy" toward Islam will lead to persecution of Christians and Jewish people in the U.S.

"There are Muslims that have access to him in the White House. Our foreign policy has a lot of influence now, from Muslims. We see the prime minister of Israel being snubbed by the president and by the White House and by the Democrats, and it's because of the influence of Islam. They hate Israel and they hate Christians. And so, the storm is coming, I believe," Graham said on CBN's "The 700 Club" earlier in March.

For his part, Obama has asserted that he does not call ISIS "Islamic," because he believes that is what the terror group wants.

"These terrorists are desperate for legitimacy. And all of us have a responsibility to refute the notion that groups like ISIL somehow represent Islam, because that's a falsehood that embraces the terrorists' narrative," Obama has said, using another name for ISIS.

Graham has demanded that more be done to protect Christians being targeted by terror groups, particularly after the beheading of 21 Coptic Christians by ISIS, which was depicted in a video released in February.

"Can you imagine the outcry if 21 Muslims had been beheaded by Christians? Where is the universal condemnation by Muslim leaders around the world? As we mourn with the families of those 21 martyrs, we'd better take this warning seriously as these acts of terror will only spread throughout Europe and the United States," Graham said in response to ISIS' "Message to Nation of the Cross" video.

http://www.worthynews.com/top/chris...ions-reflects-worlds-conflicts-today-135955-/

I think that Graham also believes in the rapture and that it is not very far away.

 

[blessedwife318]

http://www.worthynews.com/top/chris...ions-reflects-worlds-conflicts-today-135955-/

I think that Graham also believes in the rapture and that it is not very far away.

We need to be careful of reading the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other. I have been a supporter of the rapture, just not a pretrib rapture for as long as I can remember but the more I study history the more I realize that every generation thought they were the last and they thought they could place current events into a prophetic time table if you will. And after going through the millennial craziness of the late 90s ( I was a huge Left Behind fan even if I was not a pretibber) I'm a little weary of people trying to tie current events with the Bible.

 

[DHK]

We need to be careful of reading the Bible in one hand and the newspaper in the other. I have been a supporter of the rapture, just not a pretrib rapture for as long as I can remember but the more I study history the more I realize that every generation thought they were the last and they thought they could place current events into a prophetic time table if you will. And after going through the millennial craziness of the late 90s ( I was a huge Left Behind fan even if I was not a pretibber) I'm a little weary of people trying to tie current events with the Bible.

We shouldn't be "weary" of what all the apostles did, and every generation since has done, which is to look expectantly for our blessed hope and Saviour, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Paul expected Christ to come in his day--the times and seasons pointed to it. So did the times and seasons of WWI and WWII.
His coming is always imminent. Christ told us "when he see these signs, know then..." One may say that those verses are referring to another time, but I believe the same signs are a precursor to His Coming. They always were. They always will be. As the same signs grow in intensity world-wide we are closer than ever before. Of course that statement is always true signs or no signs.
The anticipation of the Second Coming of Christ is one of the greatest hopes f the believer.
"Even so come Lord Jesus Christ."