3 Reasons I changed my mind about Penal Substitution

[SavedByGrace]

You don't understand how grace saves people. You still end up with the self-righteous attempting to save themselves through works that cannot save. If all have Christ's imputed righteousness, which obviously they do not, then all are saved no matter what they do.

remove your "reformed" specs and you will then be able to see what the Bible actually teaches!

 

[SavedByGrace]

You don't understand how grace saves people. You still end up with the self-righteous attempting to save themselves through works that cannot save. If all have Christ's imputed righteousness, which obviously they do not, then all are saved no matter what they do.

instead of your personal theology, look at 1 Timothy 4:10, for example, and then show how Jesus could have only died for the elect?

 

[1689Dave]

instead of your personal theology, look at 1 Timothy 4:10, for example, and then show how Jesus could have only died for the elect?

“For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.” 1 Timothy 4:10 (KJV 1900)

God saves all (who should have been killed in Adam) for the sake of those especially saved. How would you survive without them? Believers in Christ are so few we would starve without them. But we know God blinded many of them so they could not believe and be "especially" saved in Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

remove your "reformed" specs and you will then be able to see what the Bible actually teaches!

I'm Baptist. You don't know what the Bible teaches or you would consider all verses pertaining to a subject, and not just the ones you think prove your point.

 

[SavedByGrace]

who is the Saviour of all men

address this

 

[1689Dave]

address this

God saves all people but not in the same way he saves believers. Do you remember how God did not drive all of the Canaanites out all at once? He saved most of them to control the land since the Israelites were too few in number. The pagans were on "borrowed time" for the sake of the Church, just like today.

 

[SavedByGrace]

God saves all people but not in the same way he saves believers. Do you remember how God did not drive all of the Canaanites out all at once? He saved most of them to control the land since the Israelites were too few in number. The pagans were on "borrowed time" for the sake of the Church, just like today.

typical non response to the text in the OP, WHO are the "all men" in 1 Timothy 4:10, and WHO are the "believers". Just answser this

 

[1689Dave]

typical non response to the text in the OP, WHO are the "all men" in 1 Timothy 4:10, and WHO are the "believers". Just answser this

All men = all saved men. If he is their savior. To a Jew, ALL men would be gentiles too.

 

[Van]

Looks like your lack of the Covenant nature of salvation is what is on display. To suggest the question does sin have a penalty is not a valid discussion point is missing the gospel.

And once again we have diversion from the topic of PST deception to the banality of yet another manufactured attack on me. Go figure

 

[SavedByGrace]

All men = all saved men. If he is their savior. To a Jew, ALL men would be gentiles too.

how can it mean "all saved men", as this is what "those who believe" means? You are forcing your theology into what the Bible does not say

 

[1689Dave]

how can it mean "all saved men", as this is what "those who believe" means? You are forcing your theology into what the Bible does not say

ALL = ALL the topic refers to. = ALL saved men. But you really miss it when you fail to understand only Jews were saved until God brought in believing gentiles. So as a 21st century Americanised "Christian" you have many things already working against your bible interpretations.

 

[SavedByGrace]

But you really miss it when you fail to understand only Jews were saved until God brought in believing gentiles

shows how much you really don't know! In the OT, we have Rahab, Ruth, the city of Nineveh, and others, who are NOT Jewish, but saved by the Lord. So you reasoning again is moot

 

[1689Dave]

shows how much you really don't know! In the OT, we have Rahab, Ruth, the city of Nineveh, and others, who are NOT Jewish, but saved by the Lord. So you reasoning again is moot

Jew is a religion. It is not a race. You'll never understand Israel until you prove this to yourself.

 

[Van]

Message of Reconciliation

Christ's death bought everyone out of the Old Covenant, and into the New Covenant in His blood. Those to be saved and those never to be saved, 2 Peter 2:1 Any other viewpoint denies 1 Timothy 2:6 Only those spiritually placed into Christ undergo the washing of regeneration where the penalty for all their specific sins, past, present and future is removed. Titus 3:5

Could we call the biblical doctrine "Propitious Reconciliation?"

 

[1689Dave]

shows how much you really don't know! In the OT, we have Rahab, Ruth, the city of Nineveh, and others, who are NOT Jewish, but saved by the Lord. So you reasoning again is moot

Ninevah repented in a national sense but was not saved in the spiritual sense. God did not wipe them out. Women converts were considered circumcised (Jews) through their circumcised fathers or husbands.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry, bro, but you are WAY off.

I never claimed that Jesus did not give Himself for the sins of the whole world.

I never claimed that Penal Substitution Theory denies Jesus willingly gave Himself.

I never claimed Penal Substitution Theory or anyone else supposes God punished Jesus against His will.

The ONLY humanistic rubbish seems to be those things you have imagined me saying.

That is why I dislike the topic here. Adherents of Penal Substitution Theory often attribute to those who reject the theory ideas that never crossed the lips of their opponents.

While it is easy to argue strawman such arguments are not edifying. The ground gained is but a mirage.

You might not have, but those are common arguments used against PSA!

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. But Penal Substitution is not taught in the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Penal Substitution Theory is probably the biggest detractor of the gospel (the biggest "Christian myth") today.

It is the central theme of Pauline Justification!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hey @Iconoclast ,

I think it may be good to define what we mean by penal substitution and Penal Substitution Theory.

Often the defense goes along the lines of Christ bearing our sin, becoming sin for us, the chastened for our well being falling upon Christ, Him bring pierced for out transgressions, God being pleased to crush Him ..... etc.

But the objection seems never to be those things (at least here).

I need to define Penal Substitution Theory as well (what I mean by the term).

I view Penal Substitution Theory as including all of those things mentioned (all those passages we agree with and cling to), but with the addition of ideas of God punishing Christ for the sins of those being saved, of Christ experiencing God's wrath, and of the necessity for God to punish sin in order to (or as the means of) forgiving the sinner.

How would you define the Doctrine of Penal Substitution?

God being Holy had to place his divine wrath on someone to pay for their breaking of his law!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jew is a religion. It is not a race. You'll never understand Israel until you prove this to yourself.

Jews are physical descendants from Abraham!

 

[Van]

Penal Substitution theory (PST) sails under false colors. It is a Trojan Horse for Calvinism's Limited Atonement. The issue is not whether Christ death provided the substitunary sacrifice necessary for the remission of sin. Christ's resurrection demonstrates it did. The issue is not the error of pitting one Person of the Trinity against another. And the issue is certainly not the mistaken views of fallible scholars.

So what is the issue? Just what is Propitiatory Reconciliation! Only when a person is within Christ's Propitiatory Shelter, i.e. In Him, is the person's sin penalty removed by the circumcision of Christ.