30,000+ protastant denominations

[thessalonian]

"{30,000?? It is all wishfull thinking. It is a number dreamt up by the Catholic Church with no foundation in fact. They cannot prove it."

Well this is simply a lie and can be easily shown as such. Go to my first post and click on the first link I gave. The guy who wrote the World Christian Encyclopedia where the number originates is a BAC (that does not stand for Back Alley Catholic BTW). Search on Born Again Christian in that article. I suspect you will find it.

"21 denominations"

Man are you dreaming.

Blessings

 

[DHK]

Oh, C'mon Thessalonian. Did you even bother to read the article. He does a fine job of researching out the various denominations, and starts right from the very source where the 30,000 number came from. You can't judge a book by its cover. You have to do some reading first. You haven't even seen the cover yet (judging by your post).
DHK

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
A person goes to spend eternity with the LORD by
his PERSONAL relationship with GOD and not by
his religious affiliation. If the result of the
Reformation was more denominations----GOD doesn't
care, as long as more people are aware of their
PERSONAL respnsibility of faith and don't hold
to powerless Church traditionalism that does
nothing to save them.

Your logic is flawed...

God, in His infinite mercy, justice and love, will not doubt agree with you from the first sentence.

But for God to do this, even while that is a fragmentation of Christianity, with it's diverse, often conflicting doctrines, you surely cannot therefore come to the conclusion that "God does not care," otherwise, God then appoves of confusion!

God loves us dispite our divisions, does not mean God tolarates the divisions!

Your logic reminds me of the story of a Russian scientist, taking a frog and teaching it to jump on command. Everytime he would say "jump," off went the frog!

Then he removed a leg from the frog.

He commanded the frog to jump, and sure enough, the frog jumped.

The scientist then removed a second leg, and on command, the poor frog managed to jump

A third leg was removed, with only one leg left, and sure enough, on command, the frog managed to jump.

The scientist then removed the last remaining leg, and on the command to "jump," the frog remained still. he could no longer jump

What did the scientist conclude?

When you remove all legs from a frog, he can no longer hear!

Jesus established ONE church, ONE authority here on earth per Matthew 16:18-19 and Christ also spoke of "one fold, one shephard."

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram
aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt
adversum eam et tibi dabo claves regni caelorum et quodcumque
ligaveris super terram erit ligatum in caelis et quodcumque
solveris super terram erit solutum in caelis.
(Matt 16:18-19 From the Latin Vulgate)

 

[Pete Richert]

Thessalonian,

I think DHK has a point here. If you wish to use his number (that is really 8,196 for protastant denominations) then you have to use his number for Roman Catholic denominations: 2,942). Or if you wish to use what he actually seperated into major doctrinal differences (21 for Protastants) then you will have to use his break down for Romans Catholics (16).

Why would you cite one number as true and completely ignore the other number as false. That is COMPLETELY inconsistent. Did you read the article? It is only about three pages.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by DHK:
Oh, C'mon Thessalonian. Did you even bother to read the article. He does a fine job of researching out the various denominations, and starts right from the very source where the 30,000 number came from. You can't judge a book by its cover. You have to do some reading first. You haven't even seen the cover yet (judging by your post).
DHK

I have printed it out for reading, and I think I have read it before. Going to the summary paragraph, the author speaks of 8,196 "idiosyncrasies," I sure would love to see what they are!

One denominination believes is the salvific nature of baptism, while another sees it as only symbolic. That is a doctrinal discrepancy that cannot be glossed-over as a simple idiosynchrasy of little consiquence; it is a serious doctrinal error one way or the other! It is impossible that both groups can be right; one must be in error!

And likewise with the Eucharist. One cannot sluff-off the "idiosynchrasy" of one group believing in transubstantiation, another in consubstantiation, and still others believing it is only symbolic. They are serious errors of doctrine, again, one way or the other. Only one stance is true, the rest is error.

On the other hand, if the Eastern church uses a pellet shaped piece of bread for the Eucharist, while other Rites use the round wafer shape, that is a indeed, an "idiosynchrasy" that has no doctrinal error at all! Both the East and Western Churches believes that, in both forms, they are the true body and blood of Christ!

Now, I don't care if the actual figure is 8,000 or 30,000 in the number of denominations, but if one were to count all the little fragmentations just within Pentecostalism or the Baptist community, you rapidly get the feeling of a continual fragmentation in the non-Catholic Christian world.

It would still be a sad and unfortunate thing if indeed, the actual figure were 8,000 plus...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Pillar and Foundation of Truth, the Church. (1 Tim 3:15)

 

[Pete Richert]

One denominination believes is the salvific nature of baptism, while another sees it as only symbolic. That is a doctrinal discrepancy that cannot be glossed-over as a simple idiosynchrasy of little consiquence; it is a serious doctrinal error one way or the other! It is impossible that both groups can be right; one must be in error!

I think this would fall under a major division in which he comes to 21.

The point indeed for this article is not the number of protastant divisions, by why indeed you would cite this guy as your source and then completely ignore the divisions he places in the Roman Catholic Chruch. So which is 8196/2000+ . . . 21/16 . . . . 1/4?

 

[Ed Edwards]

30,000 Protestant denominations seems
rather large by a factor of more than 100
(i.e. there are less than 300 Protestant
Christian denominations. There are
a couple dozen denominations in the
US with the term "catholic" in them

TIME ALMANAC 2003 ,\ page 432
lists 23 denominations in the US
with 1,000,000 members or more.

THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD
1991-1992 EDITION pages 373-376 lists
facts about some 250 denominations
including the catholic, islam,
new age, pagan, and other non-Christian
and non-Pprotestant denominsations.

Maybe the folks who want 30,000 denominations
are counting each independant Baptist
church? No, back in 1990 there
were 37,517 Southern Baptist Conventin
affiliated local independant Baptist
churches.

So i have no idea where 30,000 comes from.
Much be fiction suited to proving the
conclusions somebody wanted?

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by DHK:
Oh, C'mon Thessalonian. Did you even bother to read the article. He does a fine job of researching out the various denominations, and starts right from the very source where the 30,000 number came from. You can't judge a book by its cover. You have to do some reading first. You haven't even seen the cover yet (judging by your post).
DHK

Well then I guess that makes too of us since you claimed the guy who came up with the number was Catholic. I didn't read it and I don't care to. I have read some of swedson's stuff. I agree the prot number is too high but I also agree that the Catholic number is exagerated. I also agree (with myself) that the cancerous division of Christianity began with the reformation.

Blessings

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Well then I guess that makes too of us since you claimed the guy who came up with the number was Catholic. I didn't read it and I don't care to. I have read some of swedson's stuff. I agree the prot number is too high but I also agree that the Catholic number is exagerated. I also agree (with myself) that the cancerous division of Christianity began with the reformation.

Blessings

As the writer says, and as most of us have observed, it is the Roman Catholics that continually throw out the # 30,000 referring to the number of Protestant denominations. That is what I referred to, and that is what the article also referred to:

When this figure first surfaced among Roman Catholic apologists, it started at 20,000 Protestant denominations, grew to 23,000 Protestant denominations, then to 25,000 Protestant denominations. More recently, that figure has been inflated to 28,000, to over 32,000. These days, many Roman Catholic apologists feel content simply to calculate a daily rate of growth (based on their previous adherence to the original benchmark figure of 20,000) that they can then use as a basis for projecting just how many Protestant denominations there were, or will be, in any given year.

 

[WPutnam]

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />One denominination believes is the salvific nature of baptism, while another sees it as only symbolic. That is a doctrinal discrepancy that cannot be glossed-over as a simple idiosynchrasy of little consiquence; it is a serious doctrinal error one way or the other! It is impossible that both groups can be right; one must be in error!

I think this would fall under a major division in which he comes to 21.

The point indeed for this article is not the number of protastant divisions, by why indeed you would cite this guy as your source and then completely ignore the divisions he places in the Roman Catholic Chruch. So which is 8196/2000+ . . . 21/16 . . . . 1/4? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I don't really know! In fact, I seldom quote the 30,000 figure, going down to a more reasonable 10,000! Why? Because it is an extremely difficult to determine exactly how one determines doctrinal differences in church communities. A white baptist church may differ from the adjacient black baptist church by only skin color, but they preach the same doctrines and beliefs. (We have that here in my town.) I would not consider them as separate denominations even while I may wonder why they are separated as they are.

I have yet to figure out exactly how many differant flavors of Baptists there are. Most are of the Southern Baptist Convetsion, and others are Primitive Baptists and the like. Where do they they differ in doctrinal teachings? I have no idea, but I still wonder why the separation. Why are they not under the same roof instead of being separated as they are? How do I determine if they are separate denominations?

Therein lies the problem.

My bottom line is, whether non-Catholic Christianity denominational count is the low figure of 21 (which I tend to think is way too low) to the 8,000 plus figure or what ever it is, it is too high for scandalous reasons, regardless of the figure! My atheist friends laugh at these divisions in Christianity, which is the great tragedy!

I won't get into it here but please do not call the other "Rites" of the Catholic Church as "denominations" (just as I am inclined to not do so with different "flavors" of some Baptists.) These Rites are all "in union with Rome" and thus are as Catholic as can be!

But I do wonder what the figure is if we could count up all the separate and distince non-Catholic communities who are not "in union with
Rome." Perhaps that would at least approach the 10,000 figure I often use with the caviat that I do not know the actual figure.

And by the way, that figure would include the so called "maveric Catholic churches" like the "Old Catholic Church" and the like as outside of the Catholic Church (they are not "in communion with Rome") as being in that list of "denominations."

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Lord, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time,
enjoying one moment at a time;
accepting hardship as a pathway to peace;
taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is,
not as I would have it;
trusting that you will make all things right
if I surrender to Your will;
so that I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with You forever in the next.
Amen.

 

[neal4christ]

I am not maligning anyones religion, accusing them of gross atrocities in a manner akin to gossip.

Okay. I didn't say you were. Let me make it clear: I do not support Bob's methods. However, let's be honest. I don't like falsehood, period. You do not get a free pass. When you throw around a number that you have not verified just because you like the size of it, that is wrong. It is akin to gossip. So like it or not, you are not justified in spreading falsity (if it is) no matter how "minor" it is to you. It is still a lie. Unless, of course, you are very post-modernistic in your thinking!

In Christ,
Neal

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I am not maligning anyones religion, accusing them of gross atrocities in a manner akin to gossip.

Okay. I didn't say you were. Let me make it clear: I do not support Bob's methods. However, let's be honest. I don't like falsehood, period. You do not get a free pass. When you throw around a number that you have not verified just because you like the size of it, that is wrong. It is akin to gossip. So like it or not, you are not justified in spreading falsity (if it is) no matter how "minor" it is to you. It is still a lie. Unless, of course, you are very post-modernistic in your thinking!

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]OK. I'll stick with my 99% number because I know I can back it up. I will say greater than 500 denoms because that is the number I would consider wasting the time to back up (and Martin Luther said 250 so I am certain it has doubled since the, though I am sure it is much greater. Especially with the non-denominational denominations). There is only 1 Holy Roman Catholic Church. That is the number I have backed up for years. Now I bet you have never seen a Protestant conceed that much in your whole entire life. Though I would contend that Mr. Barrett has reason to support his numbers and if I shell out the 250 some time I am quite certain my numbers will be greatly amplified. Either way I am sure you will agree there is way too much division in Christianity.

God bless.

 

[neal4christ]

There is only 1 Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Hey, I agree there is only one Roman Catholic church. There you go, does that make you feel better? However, there is only one body of all believers, far bigger than any earthly institution.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[Eladar]

There may be only one Roman Catholic Church, it just encompasses as many differing beliefs as there are Protestant denominations.

 

[Ed Edwards]

The 30,000 denominations are NOT
protestant christian denominations.
The 30,000 "denomionations" pretain
to 9,900 religions in the world.

Let us quit talking about apples and
oranges and MAKE FRUIT SALAD!!!!

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There is only 1 Holy Roman Catholic Church.

Hey, I agree there is only one Roman Catholic church. There you go, does that make you feel better? However, there is only one body of all believers, far bigger than any earthly institution.

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Neal, you a material relativist (as opposed to a formal one). The result is the same.

 

[MikeS]

Maybe I just missed it, but has any neutral analysis of these numbers been offered here? All I saw was an article (Svendsen) which may or may not be correct but was clearly of a partisan nature.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Some people on the board paint a picture of the Protestant denominations as being totally against each other. In fact, among the more evangelical denominations we all agree on most major points of Christian theology, like the Deity of Christ, the atonement, Original Sin, the Kingdom of God, redemption, regeneration, sanctification, the Second Coming of Christ and so on. Orthodox Catholics would agree with all of the above also.

Catholics tend to paint with a broad brush as to the perfect unity of the Roman Catholic Church because of several things, one of which is papal authority. In fact, Dr. Hans Kung, the Tubingen professor born in 1928 was one of the chief critics of the Vatican. In 1968 he published his book, "Apostolic Succession" which suggested that teachers and prophets in our times can claim succession just as the apostles of old times. He abandoned a belief in the infallibility of the Scriptures and agreed with much of Protestant liberal theology. He was removed as an official Catholic scholar.

Dr. Edward Schillebeeckx emphasized existentialism while there are still other Catholics who are charismatic groups, while others are strongly evangelical in belief.

There are the pre-council traditionalists while other Christians enjoy the contemporary worship style.

There is black liberation theology in the American culture and the radical liberation theology in South America. These perhaps are the furthest away from Christian orthodoxy, because there main concern is the liberation of all people and deliverance from social oppression. There are other leading men like Gustavo Gutierrez, a professor from Lima, Peru. He believed in a blend of various theologies and not timeless truth that can be systematized and taught as His truth. Also, read about Jose Miguez Bonio, Juan Luis Segundo, Jose Portirio Miranda and so on.

Dr. Jurgen Moltmann born in 1926 and believed that God is not absolute but is on the way to the future. The future is the essential nature of God. The resurrection of Christ is of little spiritual importance.

There is no real unity in the Roman Catholic Church because the evil one is busy in their churches and culture, just as he is not asleep in our various aberrations of God. Individuality always insures divisions and different ways of looking at things, even our Lord.

If the Roman Catholic did not have the hammer of fear to hold over the heads of their people they would gladly form different denominations. But, who wants to have the sacrament of the Eucharist withheld, especially when those in the alleged authority might vote to put your soul in Hell. Remember brethren, you are to have one holy, Catholic church not many various kinds.

At least in Protestantism we teach our people that ' . . . where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty' [II Corinthians 3:17b] even in the matter of joining or forming one more distinctive denomination.

 

[neal4christ]

Neal, you a material relativist (as opposed to a formal one). The result is the same.

Call me whatever you will, but I know that the RCC is just an earthly institution made up of fallen men. I have no problem admitting there is one Roman Catholic church, so you should be happy!

But hey, say your point stands or whatever you want, but please, speak the truth when throwing around stats. Or else don't get so upset when you don't like Bob's methods.

In Christ,
Neal

 

[trying2understand]

From the link provided by Thess:

"On top of this, we have built the World Christian Database, itemizing for 238 countries the world's 12,600 ethnolinguistic peoples, 6,600 cultures, 13,500 languages, 7,000 metropolises, 9,900 religions, 250 confessions, 34,000 denominations, 30,000 dioceses, 3,450,000 churches and worship centers, and so on."

Database... itemizing... 34,000 denominations

Instead of arguing in a vaccuum, I would urge anyone who would like to know the names of the 34,000 to write these guys at the address I gave.

BTW, they are saying 34,000 Christian denominations. If you read the article, they even qualify that as denominations that baptize as a requirement for membership.