3rd of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Can you find a verse in Matthew chapter 24 saying that Jesus will come before tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Bob.

Let me show you an "error" you'r making in 2 thess.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

First, the rapture is being discussed here then the appearence of the Antichrist.

Let's take it verse at a time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only "HE" (holy Ghost) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed

The "Sequence" here is the removable of the Holy Ghost" (church rapture)AND THEN that is "AFTERWARDS", the AC is revealed,

But here's what I want you to focus on,

whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

After the rapture, the AC is revealed, so between the AC being revealed and Jesus destroying him with the brightness of his coming, the "TRIBULATION PERIOD OCCURS".

Rapture...AC revealed...Trib period...AC destroy.
Jesus.....AC revealed...Trib period...Jesus.

In the rapture, the world doesn't "SEE" Jesus, twinkling of an eye.

When he returns to destroys the AC, the whole world "sees" him.

When Jesus returns and destroys the "AC" is the "FIRST RESURRECTION".

You're attempting to "COMBINE" both the "rapture/AC revealed" and "destroying the AC" into "ONE EVENT", can't be, the "TRIB PERIOD" must occur "BETWEEN" them.

Matt 24 describes the event of "destroying the AC", not the rapture, you have to remember that the rapture "WAS NOT" revealed "BY JESUS", but "LATER", by "PAUL".

Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

Matt 24 is written to those who will enter the trib, Israel mainly, that's why it is "tied" to their OT and "Daniel's prophecy" of 70 weeks.

The church had no part in the first 69 weeks, an neither does it have a part in the 70th week.

Here again, the "TRINITY" explain "WHO" (God/Jesus) is dealing with "WHO". (church/Israel)

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me4Him,

Later tonight, I will discuss on 2 Thess. 2:6-8 much more deep what Paul was talking about. This passage have do nothing with the depart of the Holy Spirit, this passage talking about Satan. I will explaining on this tonight.

By the way, my home will have a big winter storm!!! Can't wait to see lot of snow!

In Christ
R~ev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Me4Him,

Later tonight, I will discuss on 2 Thess. 2:6-8 much more deep what Paul was talking about. This passage have do nothing with the depart of the Holy Spirit, this passage talking about Satan. I will explaining on this tonight.

WHO said anything about the "Holy Spirit" departing??

The "HOLY GHOST" is the "Spirit" leading the church, and it is "Unique" to the Church.

The "Holy Spirit" leads "ISRAEL", not the "Church".

Mercy, where's your "TRINITY TRAINING"????

By the way, my home will have a big winter storm!!! Can't wait to see lot of snow!

In Christ
R~ev. 22:20 -Amen!

Better "YOU" than "ME", I'm a "SOUTHERN BOY",
myself, I like "4 wheelers", not "Snowmobiles".

Nowatimean, VERN???

Where in/around Detroit do you live, I'm "VERY" familar with that area, especially the Auto plants.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

How do you outline Chapter 24 of Matthew? [/QB]

#1 The sequence is preserved.

#2. The great timeline of 2000 years of Christian history is covered in Matt 24 and "yes" that includes the many centuries of the dark ages.

#3. No slicing and dicing.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.

15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.

Where was “the holy place” in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD; it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''

Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecidented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

This non-SDA link shows a chronology of the Matt 24 events that DOES have the 1260 years of the dark ages matched with the expected tribulation mentioned in Matt 24.
http://www.bibleexplained.com/Gospels/Matt/mt21-25/Mt24.htm

Matt 24:
23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.

The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".

Matt 24:
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

These Matt 24 events are recorded in the encyclopedia. First we note that the 1260 years of the dark ages ends in the 1700's. Then we notice the Lisbon earthquake, 1755, the dark day in the Northwestern US, 1780, and the "falling" of the stars, 1833 – all follow the end of that tribulation period.

- Stars of heaven shall fall No shower from the meteor belt activated in 1833 has been as great as as that one. This observation was noted in the magazine, Sky and Telescope around 1997. (still true as of 2003).

For a summary of signs of the end -- see
http://www.present-truth.org/signs-heavens.htm

For a list of historic quotes about the Dark Day and falling stars –
http://www.temcat.com/Temcats-studies/exceptwe.htm

Although Matt 24 and these notes above point out that the major centuries long tribulation ended with the events described above in history – still there is another tribulation period beyond this 1260 year great historic time of persecution. This shorter tribulation is also included in the Matt 24 concept of “tribulation preceding the 2nd coming”. It is seen in Rev 16 as the time of the 7 last plagues and in Rev 12-14 as the time of the Mark of the Beast.

Matt 24
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Christ comes "IN the clouds of the Sky" with "GREAT power and Great Glory". And is seen vividly just as lightning is seen vividly.

Matt 24
37 ""For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
38 ""For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

World wide destruction of the flood is as the world wide event of the Son of Man -

2Peter 3 makes the same point - that just as the earth was destroyed by water - so it is to be destroyed by Fire at "the coming" of Christ - "His return" as Peter calls it.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)
4. Second Resurrection (Rev 20)
5. Lake of Fire destruction of the wicked (Rev 20)
6. new heaven & new earth (Rev 21)

In this view the First Resurrection John sees (Rev 20) which is at Christ's Rev 19 appearing is the SAME resurrection that Paul describes at Christ's appearing in 1Thess 4. The resurrection of the righteous.

In this view the sequence of Rev 19, 20 and 21 is literal and plain. No gimmicks!

 

[BobRyan]

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

In Matt 24 we read this

23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "[/b]Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) "which is the FIRST resurrection".
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

Resurrection Counting

Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

Yet it is actually quite obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: //

0. church age continues – you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)

Ed - then you say your view does not allow for the Bible points listed above

Ed said
Quite imposible.

3. The Millennial Messanic Kingdom will be lilteral.
But it will be a physical reign on a real Earth from
a real throne of David in a real Jerusalem - all
predicted in the Bible.

An interesting "statement" on your part but the Bible points listed above remain.

Here is another one on your part

Ed said
Event 2 cannot be after the Tribulation and as
predicted. Once the Tribulation Starts, it's course
is timed and predicted by the Bible. (When it starts
is NOT predected by the Bible, no man can know it)

The second advent will start some day - we know that. The fact the we don't have an exact date for that start does not eliminate the texts already listed and therefore does not support your argument.

You are stating a nonsequitter as if that supports your point.

Ed
Daniel 9 especially 27 speaks of a 7-year week and
two 3½-year half-weeks.

Correction. Daniel 9 speaks first of 70 YEARS timeline of Jeremiah and then of the 70 weeks (prophetic weeks - so 490 YEARS) timeline of Daniel.

"You" then want to slice dice chop and slice this amazing messianic Bible timeline so that NO EVENT about the messiah that IT LISTS remains IN the timeline!!

How tragic!

You want to take the last week and chop it off from the timeline, insert an unknown gap of time and land it at the end of the world! ALL this to avoid the messianic details being INSIDE the timeline??!!! OR all this to insert the antichrist into the timeline instead of the Messiah ??

How tragic!

In any case - nothing you have given here actually supports your objections to the texts given above showing the clear, obvious and explicit sequence of scripture.

0. church age continues – you are here
1. Tribulation time
2. Second Advent of Jesus event (1Thess 4, Rev 19)
2.A The FIRST resurrection (Rev 20) of the blessed and holy at Christ's appearing in Rev 19 - Is the same as the resurrection at Christ's return in 1Thess 4.
2.B. Saints taken to heaven as promised in John 14
3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “a the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ.

At that time Christ raptures the church (as He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection). So what about the earth? Does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another? No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 [/b]The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, [/b]

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.

And yet this is “before” the Great White Throne judgment and the final burning in the lake of Fire and brimstone of all raised in the 2nd resurrection – who then suffer the 2nd death – which is the lake of fire and brimstone. So this condition is indeed “temporary”.

Isaiah 24
22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

Those who reject the millenium or the first resurrection rapture described in Rev 20 often declare that such conditions as we see described here -
can not exist and should be ignored.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh[

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed: //Daniel 9 especially 27 speaks of a 7-year week and
two 3½-year half-weeks.//

BobRyan: //Correction. Daniel 9 speaks first of 70 YEARS
timeline of Jeremiah and then of the 70 weeks
(prophetic weeks - so 490 YEARS) timeline of Daniel.//

What you say is true, but misleading. Daniel 9 does
speak of 70 weeks. But the divides it into
periods of 60 weeks in this time order:
7 weeks
62 weeks
1 week

After the first seven weeks
Danial 9:26-27 (KJV1611 Edition) reads like this:

And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himselfe,
and the people of the Prince that shall come,
shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie,
and the ende thereof shall be with a flood,
and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And hee shall confirme the couenant
with many for one weeke: and in the midst of the weeke
he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the ouerspreading of abominations hee shall
make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation,
& that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Many who deal falsely with the scripture want to make
the 'he' in verse nine refer to Messiah the Prince
but it refers to verse 26, 'the Prince that shall come'.
Historically Messiah's people did NOT 'destroy the citie', the
Romans did. This leads many to believe the future
Antichrist will be a Roman person.

Anyway, I was correct when I said:
//Daniel 9 especially 27 speaks of a 7-year week and
two 3½-year half-weeks.//

Because that week is 'week' in English but is better
translated a 'seven', i.e. seven years.

So your 'correction' is NOT a correction but an
addition. This part of the statement is correct:
// ... Daniel 9 speaks first of 70 YEARS
timeline of Jeremiah and then of the 70 weeks
(prophetic weeks - so 490 YEARS) timeline of Daniel.//

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //Does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another? No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?//

No, No, No, Yes, Really.

I beleive the Millinnium is the time when there will be physical
Jewish Israeli ruled over by a physical Christ ruling
from a physical throne (that used to belong to David)
in a physical Jerusalem. This world will also have gentile
citizens derived from those non-Christian Gentiles who
survived the Tribulation Period and were selected
in the Sheep & Goat Nations judgement (see Matthew 25)

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Ed: //Daniel 9 especially 27 speaks of a 7-year week and
two 3½-year half-weeks.//

BobRyan: //Correction. Daniel 9 speaks first of 70 YEARS
timeline of Jeremiah and then of the 70 weeks
(prophetic weeks - so 490 YEARS) timeline of Daniel.//

Ed said

What you say is true, but misleading.

Hardly misleading to note the obvious. That both timelines are presented -- the 70 years of Jeremiah and the 70 weeks of Daniel (the 490 year timeline).

What is misleading is your "assumption" that timelines of scripture can be chopped, sliced, diced and hacked into disconnected pieces whenever the traditions of man "need them" to be.

That is not true of ANY timeline in ALL OF scripture!!

You merely "assume" you can do it - and do not even blink as your tradition requires you to slice away at a Bible timeline!!

You claim that because the timeline is SHOWN to have a number of different events happening at each stage of the timeline (7 days of creation also come to mind here as well) you are free to slice and dice it's segements - disconnecting them, inserting undefined gaps of time - destroying the total timeline and reducing it to "still intact" mini-timelines that fit your tradition.

Ed said
Daniel 9 does
speak of 70 weeks. But the divides it into
periods of 60 weeks in this time order:
7 weeks
62 weeks
1 week

So where is the "gap of undefined time" that you inserted between the first 7 weeks (49 years) of this single 490 year timeline and then next 52 weeks (374 years) of time?

Answer? Nowhere! Your tradition did not require you to insert a gap of undefined time there - so you did not! It is only in the last week - the one WITH ALL the MESSIANIC EVENTS in it that you needed to disconnect from the 69 weeks so you could avoid the messianic events so critical to Daniel and the Gospel!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9

Daniel's Prayer for His People

1 In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans--
2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

Daniel 9 starts with a 70 year timeline prophecy given by Jeremiah. This timeline prophecy of 70 years – LIKE ALL timeline prophecies in scripture, is contiguous! IF Daniel had the problem of “undefined units of time inserted into the timeline” he could have no predictable use of the timeline as a time “ruler” with a start and end point and a duration that is EXACTLY as specified in the prophecy. Hence we see no “shattering and scattering” of Bible timelines – not even the 70 years of Jeremiah!.

=================================================================================


Seventy Weeks and the Messiah


Dan 9: 24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city,

Here in Daniel we find the 70 week prophetic time span of (70 prophetic weeks, 490 literal years). This time span is explicitly quantified by the number 70 (70weeks) just as the other time span of Daniel 9 - the 70 year time span in Dan 9:2 was explicitly quantified by the number 70.

In the remaining verses of Daniel 9 we will see the single time span of 70 weeks detailed into a timeline covering the entire 490 year period.

This prophetic timeline that forms that complete contiguous time span of 70 weeks works exactly as all other Bible time spans with numeric values encompassing the entire span of time. The 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9:2 show a prophetic span of time without gaps. The 400 years of Genesis 15:13 also show a span of time that is reliable and valid for calculating and predicting events in the timeline associated with that span of time.

IF (as some suppose in recent times) a time span could be injected with "undefined gaps of time" - then the Jews might still be in Babylon using the 70 years of Daniel 9:2 infested with gaps. Or the Hebrews might still be enslaved in Egypt using the 400 years of Genesis 15:13 and injecting "undefined gaps of time" into it.

Inserting gaps into time spans that are numerically quantified as we see with the 70 years and the 70 weeks - voids the entire span of time as a reliable source of information and prophecy. IF a builder contracts to build your house in 3 months but then injects "undefined gaps of time" between the 2nd and 3rd month - the entire 3 month contract is made void. IT could be 3 years or 3 decades as long as "gaps of time of undefined duration' are allowed.

IN the same way - inserting such "Gaps of time" would extend out the 7 day timeline of Genesis 1-2:3 to any length of time one is inclined to interject. Injecting gaps into quantified time spans is classic eisegesis.

All agree that "for your people" refers to the Jews as the "Holy nation, royal priesthood, chosen by God" - the Hebrew nation church of Israel. The time span is specifically assigned to Israel - literally.

===========================================================

Dan 9:24 (continued)
Kalah (3615) to finish the transgression, Tamam(8552) to make an end of sin,

Tamam (8552) "end", "finish" "complete", "spent"
Kalah (3615) "finish" (Ezra 1:1) "Fulfill" Gen 15 "complete" - "come to an end"
[/b]

Here Daniel predicts that during this 490 year span of time - they will complete the measure of their sin and guilt.

The sense of Kalay in Dan 9 used in prophecy and tied to a length of time for sin (a time span) is the same as we find it in Genesis 15 -

Gen 15:
13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where (17) they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
15 "As for you, (20) you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age.
16 "Then in (21) the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet (Kalah)complete."

Just as the Amorites were given a 400 year time span to fill up the measure of their iniquity - so Israel is given 490 years from the time of the decree listed in Daniel 9 to complete their measure of iniquity.

Matt 23:
31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.

The measure of guilt was fast filling in the days of Christ - He predicts they will fill it up in that generation

Matt 23
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

Paul declares that they had already filled up their measure of sin and iniquity by the time of his ministry.

1 Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9:24 (continued)
to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy

This 70 week prophetic span of time (490 literal years) would bring in the Messiah and fulfill all righteousness - fulfilling all vision and prophecy pertaining to Israel and the Messiah during this 490 year span of time.

The final atonement for sin - through the Messiah - fhe focus of the nation's festivals and religious services..

1John 2:2 – Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and the sins of the whole world.

To bring in "everlasting righteousness"
Matt 3:15 - Christ "fulfilled all righteousness" when He came.

Romans 3:
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

The completion of all vision and prophecy pertaining to the Messiah and the nation of Israel.
All prophecy and vision pertaining to Israel's Messiah - the Savior of the World

1 Peter 1:
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

=============================================
[
b]Daniel 9:24[/b] and to anoint the most holy place.

During this 490 year span of time the Most Holy place in heaven - the temple built by God "without hands", Christ (the Messiah the Anointed one) would anoint the most holy place.

Hebrews 9:
18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, "" THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.''
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.

Christ is seen in Hebrews 9 to anoint the most Holy Place and to offer the “one sacrifice” that obsoletes all others. Putting an end to sacrifice and offering. His alone is the only real sacrifice for the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9:
25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

Christ (Hebrew Messiah) – is the “anointed one”. This was fulfilled at His baptism.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled

Mark 1:15 - The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled

Acts 10
36 ""The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)
37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed.
38 "" You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39 ""We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Christ is the anointed one – anointed by the Holy Spirit.

John 1
32 John testified saying, "" I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him.
33 ""I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
34 ""I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.''

Matt 3
The Baptism of Jesus

13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"
15 But Jesus answering said to him, "Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he permitted Him.
16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Here we see the timeline broken down into discrete segments - each following the other. 7 weeks (49 years) assigned to the rebuilding of Jerusalem - followed by 62 weeks making a total of 69 weeks (483 literal years) and the beginning of the mission of the "anointed one" the Messiah.

And so when Christ begins His ministry He announced that prophetic time had been fulfilled


Mark 1:15 - "The Kingdom of God is at hand – the time is fulfilled"

And so begins Christ's 3.5 year ministry in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.

So far the exact matching anti-type fulfillment in the NT is far more "explicit" in fulfilling the prophetic components of Daniel 9 - using this explicit and direct approach - than all other proposed solutions. None of them contain the direct references and language for Daniel 9 as we have seen here so far.

John Gill’s commentary on Dan 9:25
it is best therefore to interpret this of a royal edict, the order or commandment of a king of Persia to rebuild Jerusalem; and it seems correct to reckon the number given, either from the seventh, or rather from the twentieth, of Artaxerxes Longimanus before mentioned; and either these reckonings, as Bishop Chandler F3 observes, are sufficient for our purpose, to show the completion of the prophecy in Christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
``the commencement of the weeks (as he remarks) must be either from the seventh of Artaxerxes, which falls on 457 B.C. or from the twentieth of Artaxerxes; (add to 457 B.C., twenty six years after Christ, which is the number that four hundred and eighty three years, or sixty nine weeks, exceeds four hundred and fifty seven years); and you are brought to the beginning of John the Baptist's preaching up the advent of the Messiah; add seven years or one week to the former, and you come to the thirty third year of A.D. which was the year of Jesus Christ's death or else compute four hundred and ninety years, the whole seventy weeks, from the seventh of Artaxerxes, by subtracting four hundred and fifty seven years (the space of time between that year and the beginning of A.D.) from four hundred and ninety, and there remains thirty three, the year of our Lord's death.[/b] Let the twentieth of Artaxerxes be the date of the seventy weeks, which is 455 B.C. and reckon sixty nine weeks of Chaldean years; seventy Chaldee years being equal to sixty nine Julian; and so four hundred and seventy eight Julian years making four hundred and eighty three Chaldee years, and they end in the thirty third year after Christ, or the passover following F4'';
the several particulars into which these seventy weeks are divided: unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and
two weeks;
http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009&verse=025

</font>[/QUOTE]===================================
But what happens "after the 483 years" - "after the 69 weeks" - "after the 7 plus 62 weeks" of prophetic time?

Again - using the Explicit language of the text - instead of the suppositions so common today.

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,

After 7+62 weeks (After the 69 weeks) – comes the 70th week. In that Week the Messiah is cut off. Still many views depend on ignoring this key fact and reading “instead” that “at or near the END of the 69th week the Messiah is cut off”

26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off (NASB)

26"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, (NKJV)

26And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, YLT

26And after the sixty-two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,(DARBY)

26And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off (ESV)

Isaiah sees this same crucifixion event.

Isaiah 53
8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

Instead of pointing us to an undefined gap of time as the event that follows "AFTER" the 69 weeks - Daniel's prophecy Continues on the SAME timeline - through the 490 years timeline. The 69 weeks takes us TO the advent of the Messiah and then After that 483 year boundary - comes the events of the Messiah in that last week - in the last 7 years in the week that follows the 69th week -- and what follows is the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

Dan 9:26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, AND the People of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

Certainly it is agreed that "After the 69th week" Christ was crucified - in fact He was crucified in the midst of the 70th week which also meant the sacrifices were at an end.

Notice here that there are TWO actors. The Messiah (who will be cut off) and the PEOPLE of the prince who is to come.

AND after that - (in fact long after that) - the city and the sanctuary were destroyed by the people of Rome - the Roman army (70 A. D) but that is another event AFTER the 69th week and After the cross and After even the 70th week.

But in the NT - it is the Jews THEMSELVES that bring about the destruction of the city according to Christ's own statements. The people of the Prince who is to come - Messiah the Prince - His people are the Jews and the NT declares that THEY were the "People" that would not let God spare the city.

In John 1 we are told that the "people of Messiah the Prince" are the Jews. "HE came unto His own and His own received Him not". Isaiah 9:6 foretells the same message of the Messiah as coming prince - Dan 9:25

In Mat 23:37-38 we are told that Christ came to save the city and the nation but the "people of the prince" would not have it.

Matt 23:
37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and YOU were unwilling.

When Christ weeps over the city He says - the city is destroyed because of a specific reason relating to the people of the prince..

Luke 19:41-44 "Because You did not know the time of your visitation".

Daniel uses the symbol for war "a flood" and declares that war and desolation are "Decreed". Indeed Moses did predict that just such a result would occur.

Dan 9:26 And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

The "house left desolate" Matt 23:38 is a direct fulfillment of what "is decreed" by God
1Kings 9:6-7, Jer 22:5, Micah 3:11-12, Ezek 11:21-23.

========================================================

Dan 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, NASB

(Shall make a covenant Stronger – firm?)

NKJV 27Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;

YLT – Youngs Literal Translation
27And He hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week,


”He hath strengthened a covenant” – this “HE” is a reference to vs 26. In vs 26 we have only two choices – it can be “Messiah the Prince” or it can be the other actor in vs 26 “The PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. The fact that this is singular means that it can not be “THE PEOPLE of the prince who is to come”. So that leaves only “the MESSIAH” as the proper antecedent to the pronoun “he”.

Daniel is told that the period of "strengthening" the covenant last for the entire 7 years - for the entire 70th week that follows the 69th week. The historicist messianic view presented here promotes the full 7 year period as the time when the covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-32 (Hebrews 8:8-12) is being "Confirmed" and strengthened.

Christ says explicitly that the work of the Messiah is very much tied to the covenant

At the start of Christ’s ministry – at the sermon on the mount Christ provides the blessings (Matt 5:3-11) and the curses (Matt 7:13-27) and affirms His own Law already given (Matt 5:21-48) declaring them to be unbreakable – He adds even deeper “stronger” meaning to the ones already in place (Matt 6:19-7:11)

This is in direct parallel to Moses giving the Covenant to Israel with the blessing and curse and the Law of God defined.

(Notice that IN the words of the New Covenant - the Law of the New Covenant is the existing moral code defining sin and rebellion -- Christ the Creator’s moral law known and in force at the time of Jeremiah )

Jer 31
31 "" Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,'' declares the LORD.
33 ""But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,'' declares the LORD, "" I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 ""They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,'' declares the LORD, ""for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.''

35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 "" If this fixed order departs From before Me,'' declares the LORD, ""Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever.''
37 Thus says the LORD, "" If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done,'' declares the LORD.

#1. God’s Law- is still in place even in the New Covenant – it is that same law “Written on the heart”.

#2. This covenant is in place while God’s promise to Israel is in place that He would forgive them for their rebellion and would not cast them off.

#3. Christ comes to strengthen that Covenant – already in place – with promises to Israel already in place – with the Jer 31 promise of the city of Jeremiah's day rebuilt – already in place in Christ's day.

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.

Peter shows this strengthening of existing salvation covenants, laws and promises in his letter to the church. Peter declares that this is the subject of the OT – this the great

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven things into which angels long to look.

Peter declares salvation’s covenantal promises of the OT to be “made more sure” in the fact of “seeing Christ” ministry during the time of His first coming.

2 Peter 1
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, ""This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased''
18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

Matt 26:28 "This is My blood of the Covenant", which is shed on behalf of Many for the forgiveness of sins"

1Cor 11:25 "This cup IS the New Covenant in My blood".

2Cor 3 tells us that it is the New Covenant alone that is "the ministry of righteousness" and "the covenant that gives life" .

Galatians 1:6-9 tells us that there has been only one gospel. And the message of the New Covenant alone is life, forgiveness and restored fellowship with God as we see it in Heb 8:8-12).

At the start of Christ's ministry we have the covenant "strengthened" in the form of the Long promised Messiah of the New Covenant finally arriving.

In the middle of "the week" of seven years we have the New Covenant "strengthened" in the form of the atoning sacrifice being made.

Then in the last 3.5 years we have it "strengthened" in the form of the full message of the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah preached in its fullness to the Hebrew nation church - the "Holy Nation" "Royal Priesthood" - "People for God's own possession".

At each step the covenant is strengthened until it reaches its complete zenith of proclamation to the Hebrews.

=====================================================

Daniel 9:27 in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;

Here we do not see "the covenant ended" - rather the covenant is strengthened for the full 7 years. What we see is that the sacrifices of the OT Hebrew nation church - end in the middle of the week. THe Messiah's atoning sacrifice brings about the end of sacrifices. So DID the Messiah put a STOP to sacrifices and offerings (from God’s POV) when He came – but only in the midst of the week (3.5 years into His ministry)?

Heb 10
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, "" SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;
6 IN WHOLE BURNT OFFERINGS AND sacrifices FOR SIN YOU HAVE TAKEN NO PLEASURE.
...
9 then He said, "" BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL.'' He takes away the first in order to establish the second.
10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
...
16 "" THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,'' He then says,
17 "" AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.''
18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Heb 7
12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.
13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests.
...
19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Daniel's prophecy highlights one of the key gospel doctrines regarding the sacrificial system in relationship to the atoning death of the Messiah. Here we see that the sacrifices themselves would end - as they are merely shadows pointing TO the work of the Messiah (Col 2:17).

ONE alternative to this gospel central view - is that the event being highlighted (in this epic prophecy regarding the coming Messiah in 480 years) - is that the minor aspect of the Roman people and the Roman Caesar as they stop the defunct worship practices of an apostate Jewish church about 40 years after the Messiah negates their usefulness.

(Truly a trivialization of the mammoth gospel themes that the first view highlights in Daniel 9.) This view bypasses the aspect of the Romans act of slaughtering the Jews - and focuses instead on the fact that this stops sacrifices that are already made void and made defunct by the Messiah some 40 years prior to this.

Another even less useful concept is that this key segment of Daniel's prophecy focused on an insignificant and pointless act of a future Antichrist at the end of time who stops Jewish animal sacrifices already made void some 2000 years prior to that by the Messiah and already Stopped by the Romans 2000 years prior.. (One wonders if the antichrist is to be applauded for that or criticized).

The double problem in this view is that stopping what Christ already made void is pointless just as stopping what was Already Stopped is pointless. So you must also invent an entirely NEW imaginative story line to precede this event. One where God re-instituting the defunct "Shadows" sacrifices that pointed FORWARD to Christ's first coming. This means trading the more gospel centric view of Christ as the antitype for all Hebrew temple sacrifices and replacing that with this anti-Christ centric view of sacrifices-resumed then-stopped-again -- hard to swallow by every standard.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //What is misleading is your "assumption" that timelines of scripture can be chopped, sliced, diced and hacked into disconnected pieces whenever the traditions of man "need them" to be.

That is not true of ANY timeline in ALL OF scripture!!

You merely "assume" you can do it - and do not even blink as your tradition requires you to slice away at a Bible timeline!!//

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Ed did not assume anything.
Ed did not chop any timeline up. God chopped up the
Time line using Daniel to report it.
There are the 7 'weeks', the 62 'weeks' and the last
and 70th 'week'. It is right there in the scripture.
Feel free to IGNORE it, but do so at your own peril.

 

[BobRyan]

God inserted "no gaps" between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks. Did you? (no? Why not?)

God inserted "no gaps" between the 62 weeks and the last 1 week. Did you? (yes? Why here?)

NO timeline in ALL of scripture works by chopping hacking and slicing it into disconnected pieces. God did not do that in Dan 9 with EITHER the 70 weeks OR the 70 years timelines!!

How can that just be "ignored"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Martin Luther Comments on Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks (490 years)
&lt;&lt;Agrees to the harmony of scripture in leaving this 490 timeline in tact with the 70th week still connected to the timeline!&gt;&gt;
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009

III. The message itself. It was delivered with great solemnity, received no doubt with great attention, and recorded with great exactness; but in it, as is usual in prophecies, there are things dark and hard to be understood. Daniel, who understood by the book of the prophet Jeremiah the expiration of the seventy years of the captivity, is now honourably employed to make known to the church another more glorious release, which that was but a shadow of, at the end of another seventy, not years, but weeks of years. He prayed over that prophecy, and received this in answer to that prayer. He had prayed for his people and the holy city--that they might be released, that it might be rebuilt; but God answers him above what he was able to ask or think. God not only grants, but outdoes, the desires of those that fear him, Psalms 21:4.
1. The times here determined are somewhat hard to be understood. In general, it is seventy weeks, that is, seventy times seven years, which makes just 490 years. The great affairs that are yet to come concerning the people of Israel, and the city of Jerusalem, will lie within the compass of these years.
(1.) These years are thus described by weeks, [1.] In conformity to the prophetic style, which is, for the most part, abstruse, and out of the common road of speaking, that the things foretold might not lie too obvious. [2.] To put an honour upon the division of time into weeks, which is made purely by the sabbath day, and to signify that that should be perpetual. [3.] With reference to the seventy years of the captivity; as they had been so long kept out of the possession of their own land, so, being now restored to it they should seven times as long be kept in the possession of it. So much more does God delight in showing mercy than in punishing. The land had enjoyed its sabbaths, in a melancholy sense, seventy years, Leviticus 26:34. But now the people of the Lord shall, in a comfortable sense, enjoy their sabbaths seven times seventy years, and in them seventy sabbatical years, which makes ten jubilees. Such proportions are there in the disposals of Providence, that we might see and admire the wisdom of him who has determined the times before appointed.
(2.) The difficulties that arise about these seventy weeks are, [1.] Concerning the time when they commence and whence they are to be reckoned. They are here dated from the going forth of the commandments to restore and to build Jerusalem, Daniel 9:25. I should most incline to understand this of the edict of Cyrus mentioned Ezra 1:1, for by it the people were restored; and, though express mention be not made there of the building of Jerusalem, yet that is supposed in the building of the temple, and was foretold to be done by Cyrus, Isaiah 44:28. He shall say to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built. That was, both in prophecy and in history, the most famous decree for the building of Jerusalem; nay, it should seem, this going forth of the commandment (which may as well be meant of God's command concerning it as of Cyrus's) is the same with that going forth of the commandment mentioned Daniel 9:23, which was at the beginning of Daniel's supplications. And it looks very graceful that the seventy weeks should begin immediately upon the expiration of the seventy years. And there is nothing to be objected against this but that by this reckoning the Persian monarchy, from the taking of Babylon by Cyrus to Alexander's conquest of Darius, lasted but 130 years; whereas, by the particular account given of the reigns of the Persian emperors, it is computed that it continued 230 years. So Thucydides, Xenophon, and others reckon. Those who fix it to that first edict set aside these computations of the heathen historians as uncertain and not to be relied upon. But others, willing to reconcile them, begin the 490 years, not at the edict of Cyrus (Ezra 1:1), but at the second edict for the building of Jerusalem, issued out by Darius Nothus above 100 years after, mentioned Ezra 6:1-12 Others fix on the seventh year of Artaxerxes Mnemon, who sent Ezra with a commission, Ezra 7:8-12. The learned Mr. Poole, in his Latin Synopsis, has a vast and most elaborate collection of what has been said, pro and con, concerning the different beginnings of these weeks, with which the learned may entertain themselves. [2.] Concerning the termination of them; and here likewise interpreters are not agreed. Some make them to end at the death of Christ, and think the express words of this famous prophecy will warrant us to conclude that from this very hour when Gabriel spoke to Daniel, at the time of the evening oblation, to the hour when Christ died, which was towards evening too, it was exactly 490 years; and I am willing enough to be of that opinion. But others think, because it is said that in the midst of the weeks (that is, the last of the seventy weeks) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, they end three years and a half after the death of Christ, when the Jews having rejected the gospel, the apostles turned to the Gentiles. But those who make them to end precisely at the death of Christ read it thus, "He shall make strong the testament to the many; the last seven, or the last week, yea, half that seven, or half that week (namely, the latter half, the three years and a half which Christ spent in his public ministry), shall bring to an end sacrifice and oblation." Others make these 490 years to end with the destruction of Jerusalem, about thirty-seven years after the death of Christ, because these seventy weeks are said to be determined upon the people of the Jews and the holy city; and much is said here concerning the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. [3.] Concerning the division of them into seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks, and one week; and the reason of this is as hard to account for as any thing else. In the first seven weeks, or forty-nine years, the temple and city were built; and in the last single week Christ preached his gospel, by which the Jewish economy was taken down, and the foundations were laid of the gospel city and temple, which were to be built upon the ruins of the former.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew Henry agrees with Martin Luther that the 490 year timeline in Daniel 9 is to be preserved, intact (not sliced, diced, chopped and dismembered for man’s tradition)

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryConcise/mhc-con.cgi?book=da&chapter=009

Matthew Henry
Verses 20-27 An answer was immediately sent to Daniel's prayer, and it is a very memorable one. We cannot now expect that God should send answers to our prayers by angels, but if we pray with fervency for that which God has promised, we may by faith take the promise as an immediate answer to the prayer; for He is faithful that has promised. Daniel had a far greater and more glorious redemption discovered to him, which God would work out for his church in the latter days. Those who would be acquainted with Christ and his grace, must be much in prayer. The evening offering was a type of the great sacrifice Christ was to offer in the evening of the world: in virtue of that sacrifice Daniel's prayer was accepted; and for the sake of that, this glorious discovery of redeeming love was made to him. We have, in verses ( 24-27 ) , one of the most remarkable prophecies of Christ, of his coming and his salvation. It shows that the Jews are guilty of most obstinate unbelief, in expecting another Messiah, so long after the time expressly fixed for his coming. The seventy weeks mean a day for a year, or 490 years. About the end of this period a sacrifice would be offered, making full atonement for sin, and bringing in everlasting righteousness for the complete justification of every believer. Then the Jews, in the crucifixion of Jesus, would commit that crime by which the measure of their guilt would be filled up, and troubles would come upon their nation. All blessings bestowed on sinful man come through Christ's atoning sacrifice, who suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. Here is our way of access to the throne of grace, and of our entrance to heaven. This seals the sum of prophecy, and confirms the covenant with many; and while we rejoice in the blessings of salvation, we should remember what they cost the Redeemer. How can those escape who neglect so great salvation!

 

[BobRyan]

John Wesley's Explanatory Notes
on the Whole Bible
Daniel Chapter 9

&lt;&lt;Wesley agrees with Martin Luther and Matthew Henry that the 490 year timeline remains in tact and that the Messiah is the focus confirming the covenant and stopping sacrifices – instead of an end time antichrist taking Christ’s role from this prophecy in slice and dice chop and hack of the 490 year timeline’s last 7 years.&gt;&gt;

http://www.studylight.org/com/wen/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009

Verse 21
About the time - The time of the evening sacrifice was a solemn and set time of devotion. Tho' the altar was in ruins, and there was no oblation offered upon it, yet the pious Jews were daily thoughtful of the time when it should have been offered, and hoped that their prayer would be set forth before God as incense, and the lifting up of their hands, as the evening sacrifice. This was peculiarly a type of that great sacrifice, which Christ was to offer: and it was in virtue of that sacrifice, that Daniel's prayer was accepted, when he prayed for the Lord's sake.
Verse 24
Seventy weeks – These weeks are weeks of days, and these days are so many years. To finish the transgression - The angel discovers first the disease in three several words, which contain all sorts of sin, which the Messiah should free us from by his full redemption. He shews the cure of this disease in three words. 1. To finish transgression. 2. To make an end of sin. 3. To make reconciliation: all which words are very expressive in the original, and signify to pardon, to blot out, to destroy. To bring in everlasting righteousness - To bring in justification by the free grace of God in Christ, and sanctification by his spirit: called everlasting, because Christ is eternal, and so are the acceptance and holiness purchased for us. Christ brings this in, 1. By his merit. 2. By his gospel declaring it. 3. By faith applying, and sealing it by the Holy Ghost. To seal up - To abrogate the former dispensation of the law, and to ratify the gospel covenant. To anoint - This alludes to his name Messiah and Christ, both which signify anointed. Christ was anointed at his first conception, and personal union, Luke 1:35. In his baptism, Matthew 3:17, to his three offices by the holy Ghost, 1. King, Matthew 2:2. 2. Prophet, Isaiah 61:1. 3. Priest, Psalms 110:4.
Verse 25
From the going forth - From the publication of the edict, whether of Cyrus or Darius, to restore and to build it.
Verse 26
And after - After the seven and the sixty two that followed them. Not for himself - But for our sakes, and for our salvation. And the people - The Romans under the conduct of Titus. Determined - God hath decreed to destroy that place and people, by the miseries and desolations of war.
Verse 27
He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, 1. By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. 2. By his preaching. 3. By signs and wonders. 4. By his holy life. 5. By his resurrection and ascension. 6. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.