490 YEARS DONE!!!!!

[Pastor Larry]

But how can you tie them to the 490 years? Show me scripture that says they are connected.

Daniel 9:24 24 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Boy, that was an easy one. The Scripture declare that all of those things will happen in the 70 weeks, the 490 years.

 

[tamborine lady]

Pastor Larry,

Well, not so easy, because the scripture you quoted (Dan 9-24-24) has already been fulfilled in the 490 years.

Let me say it like this:

The 490 years contain:

49 years (the time it took for the temple to be rebuilt)

434 years (covers the time of silence between the old and new testaments, AFTER the temple was rebuilt, and up until the ministry of Jesus began.)

7 years (Jesus began to preach, and 3 1/2 years into those seven years he was "cut off", crucified). Ater He was crucified, the apostles and others were still preaching and telling others the good news. They continued for a time(3 1/2 years).

The whole prophecy of the 490 years is about Jesus and what He came to acomplish.

When it was finished He had:

!. Caused the sacrifices and oblation to cease(they were no longer needed).

2. Made reconciliation between God and man.(shed His blood for us).

3. Brought in rightousness( He shouldered our sin for us)

4. The prophecy and the vision were sealed.(because it was all about Jesus dying for us).

5. The most Holy(Jesus) was anounted.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you look at Daniel 9-26 and 27, you see it is talking about the same 7 years.

Dan 9-26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and inthe midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It says AFTER 62 years Messiah will be cut off. He will be cut off in the middle of the 7 years.and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Not after 62 and before the 70th year.

No matter how you look at it, (if you really look) there is no problem understanding that the 490 years have been completed .

All the other scriptures people have been quoting will happen. They just have nothing to do with this prophecy. Every thing in this one have already been fulfilled.

Peace,

Tammy

 

[tamborine lady]

I'm really surprised that no one has anything to say here!

You cannot have all concluded that I am right. I kbow better than that.

Peace,

Tammy

 

[prophecynut]

No, most have all concluded that you're wrong. Sorry

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

This is for propecynut:

I have a little time on you. "The Late Great Planet Earth" was one of the first books I read after I got saved.

And for years, I bought the lie of the pre-trib rapture and the 7 years dislodged from the 483.

Breaking the 490 year timeline up by inserting a gap of "undefined duration" into a part of it - ruins the 490 year timeline. No timeline can work if you allow those who use it to simply "insert gaps of undefined length" into it as they feel inclined to do so.

Notice that in Daniel 9:1-4 we have the 70 year timeline of Jeremiah.

Notice that there is no nope of using that timeline if you are free to break it into pieces and then insert gaps of undefined duration into that 70 timeline.

It destroys the timeline to do that.

I have been studying the bible for over 30 years, and slowly, over those years, the Holy Ghost has finally gotten through!!

So you started reading Late Great Planet Earth when you were 3?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

Hey Bob,

You said: So you started reading Late Great Planet Earth when you were 3?

ROFLOL, no I'm a little older than that, but you're close!!




Peace,

Tammy

 

[tamborine lady]

Seriously, I was 34 ( I think) when gave my heart to Jesus, so you do the math.



Peace,

Tammy

 

[BobRyan]

I can only count to 29, then I start over.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Well, not so easy, because the scripture you quoted (Dan 9-24-24) has already been fulfilled in the 490 years.

That assumes your conclusion taht th 490 years have been completed. But they have not, as was already demonstrated.

7 years (Jesus began to preach, and 3 1/2 years into those seven years he was "cut off", crucified). Ater He was crucified, the apostles and others were still preaching and telling others the good news. They continued for a time(3 1/2 years).

But you have seroius problems that I already pointed out. Jesus is cut off before the 70th week, not in the middle of it. Just read the text as it stands. You have the following

7 years
62 years
Messiah cut off
Prince to come destroys city and sanctuary, with flood, war, desolations
Covenant made for 70th week
Sacrifices cut off in the middle of hte week;
Desolation comes.

Notice how much in the text comes between the cutting off of Messiah and the covenant. You want to change the order, but the text will not allow it.

It says AFTER 62 years Messiah will be cut off. He will be cut off in the middle of the 7 years.and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

And you guys complain about distorting a time line. You just completely changed the order of the text. And i repeat, the "he" that makes the covenant is not hte Messiah. It is the prince who is to come.

Tammy, you have some serious problems because you want to change the text. If God had intended for it to be understood the way you have, he would have said that. But he didn't. And you shouldn't rewrite it for him.

 

[tamborine lady]

Larry said:Tammy, you have some serious problems because you want to change the text. If God had intended for it to be understood the way you have, he would have said that. But he didn't. And you shouldn't rewrite it for him.

Tammy says:

Well look at the pot calling the kettle black!

I must say your version is much harder to understand than mine. It takes a lot of "fixing"
to get that last 7 years flipped out to some 2000 years in the future.

So, I tell you what; you go ahead and believe what you "think" the scripture says.

And I of course will believe what I believe.

We will never change each others minds, so can we just agree to disagree and call a truce?

Lets be friends.

Peace on Earth, goodwill towards men,

Tammy

 

[Pastor Larry]

I can't help but notice you didn't explain why you took Daniel's order of events and changed it. Mind filling us in?

 

[tamborine lady]

Larry:
I can't help but notice that you probably didn't read the first thing I posted when I started this thread.

Below is what I posted. I did not change scripture, I explained it as I went, and If you think about it, it makes perfect sense.

The portions in bold type are my words to explain the scripture.

Dan 9-26 And after threescore and two weeks ( this is the 3 1/2 years that Jesus preached the good news before He was crucified) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary( this refers to the ruler that came after Jesus died, and sacked the Temple that they rebuilt earlier;) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(this refers to Jesus shedding His blood for us so that it was no longer neccessary to sacrifice bulls and goats on the alter at the Temple) and for the overspreading of abominations(these abominations are the fact that the Jews did not accept His sacrifice of His life for them, and kept on doing the sacrifices of bulls and goats.) he shall make it desolate,(thats why He allowed the temple to be sacked in 70 AD). even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate...

Peace,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

That assumes your conclusion taht th 490 years have been completed. But they have not, as was already demonstrated.

1. You have demonstrated that the 490 year timeline STARTS at a point 483 years before the Messiah.

2. You have demonstrated that you find no basis in all of scripture for taking scriptural timelines and inserting gaps of undefined lengths into the middle of them.

3. You have demonstrated that even though Daniel 9 mentions both the coming of the messian AND the cutting off of the Messiah (the Cross of Christ) - you find no place for the Cross of Christ in "your" chopped up timeline model EVEN though it is mentioned in Danile 9's 490 year time.

Notice.

26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

This is a reference to the cross and to the destruction of Jerusalem.

Your view does not have ANYTHING included in it AFTER the 483 years (after the 7 weeks PLUS Sixty-two weeks) other than events scattered far from the end of the 69th week. Certainly not the central point of all of history - the cross of Christ EVEN though it IS mentioned right here IN the 490 year timeline!

What is so important that would justify chopping up this timeline JUST when it covers the ministry of Christ and His death on the Cross?

What is so important that it would justify chopping up this ONE timeline as opposed to EVERY OTHER TIMELINE in scripture?

Answer: nothing!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

I notice that a lot of Christians want to scoop up as many prophecies as possible and lump them in with the 490 years. I wonder why that is?

Is it because they have heard it explained a certain way so long, that they just figure their explanation has to be true??

Peace

Tam

 

[PastorGreg]

Larry has posted several times taking the Scripture quite literally and accurately. Why are these just ignored? I find it interesting, Tam, that you post things like, "How come no one will answer me, etc." Then when Larry clearly shows from Scripture your error you say, "Oh, let's just be friends and ignore the differences." Your position is absolutely indefensible from Scripture and just a couple of simple posts by PastorLarry have shown that. Where in the world do you get that the disciples ministered for 3 1/2 years to complete the 490? Talk about reading in to the Scripture. It's so much easier to just take God at His word, then you don't have to do all that twisting.

 

[tamborine lady]

Pastor Greg,

You said:-----then you don't have to do all that twisting.------

Tam says:

My point exactly. Why not just read it like it is without changing anything? Instead of accusing me of not answering the question, go back and read the first page where I started this thread!

That is my answer! I didn't twist the scripture, I merely added comments for emphesis.

Peace,

Tam

 

[prophecynut]

Tam, sweetie, with all the twisting you do, I bet you look like pretzel.

 

[tamborine lady]

Sticks and stones, PN, sticks and stones!!

Have a good day,

Tam

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by PastorGreg:
[QB] Larry has posted several times taking the Scripture quite literally and accurately. Why are these just ignored?

They are not ignored. He has been responded to "in detail" and the primary, obvious problem of chopping up the 490 year timeline looms so large over his interpretation that it can not be ignored.

There is no timeline in all of scripture (not even the 70 year timeline that starts the chapter of Daniel 9 NOR the 490 year timeline that ends it) that can be preserved by chopping it up and inserting gaps of undefined length into it.

Obviously.

The position of chopping up "only this one timeline" is absolutely indefensible.

The "other obvious problem" is that Daniels 490 year timeline explicitly references both the start of the Messiah's ministry AND his being "cut off" 3.5 year later. But in the "chop and toss" model Pastor Larry most STOP the timeline JUST when it gets to this all-important work of Christ on the cross!!

The chop-and-toss model use here and only here - swaps out a focus on the cross - for a focus on an antichrist.

Where in the world do you get that the disciples ministered for 3 1/2 years to complete the 490? Talk about reading in to the Scripture.

You are making a huge blunder here by expecting every single element in the 490 year timeline to be established with a Biblical reference and date because the "chop-and-toss" model totally avoids Biblical fulfillment "event" and has to "imagine them" for that last week.

But if we "preserve" the 490 year timeline as we do with all other prophetic timelines in scripture - THEN we SEE each event IN scripture with NT FOCUS on the start of Christ's ministry, the cross, the making of the "covenenat" by Christ (Matt 26:28) and the fact that the Messiah puts a stop to sacrifices and offerings (Heb 10) -- ALL of them clearly IN the 490 year timeline and mentioned in Daniel 9 -- and all of them clearly FOCUSED on in the NT.

But the chop-and-toss model has no place at all for the cross of Christ in the 490year timeline EVEN though it is mentined IN Daniel 9 has an event in that timeline!

How tragic!

What a huge obstacle for the chop-and-toss model to overcome!

It's so much easier to just take God at His word, then you don't have to do all that twisting.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
I can't help but notice that you probably didn't read the first thing I posted when I started this thread.

I read it. It didn't address the issues.

Dan 9-26 And after threescore and two weeks ( this is the 3 1/2 years that Jesus preached the good news before He was crucified) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

Threescore and two weeks is 62 weeks of years, meaning 434 years. That is not 3 1/2 years that Jesus preached the good news since 434 does not equal 3 1/2. So explanation number one is clearly refuted.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary( this refers to the ruler that came after Jesus died, and sacked the Temple that they rebuilt earlier;) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

It is a ruler that will come after Jesus. It is not necessarily the ruler immediately after Jesus. Quite often in prophecy, there is a telescoping affect making things appear close that are in reality far apart.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,(this refers to Jesus shedding His blood for us so that it was no longer neccessary to sacrifice bulls and goats on the alter at the Temple)

No, it doesn't. The "he" of the covenant is the prince who is to come, the ruler. IT is not Jesus. The context will not allow your explanation. It is too far removed and the time line doesn't work. This covenant is made at the beginning of the 70th week intended for the 70th week, but it is broken in the middle. The Messiah died previously to the covenant being made, as is clear from simply reading the order ofhte text.

As I have already shown, your explanation will not work with the text as it stands. Your explanation requires something entirely different than the text allows. The order is simple 69 weeks, Messiah cut off, prince to come makes covenant for 70th week, covenant broken in the middle of hte 70th week.

Let me explain quickly again, why Christ is not in view. SOme have said that the covenant of v. 27 is the New covenant of Matt 26. They also say that Christ's death ends the sacrifice. In Matthew, Christ makes the covenant on one day (probalby Thursday) and ends sacrifices on Friday with his death. In Dan, the covenant is made after the Messiah has been cut off; the covenant is made for one week (7 years); and the sacrifices are ended 3 1/2 years after the covenant is made, not 1 day after the covenant is made. Your interpretation depends on the weeks having various lengths. Then you refer to the destruction of AD70, which is 38 years after Christ's death, which inserts that dreaded gap in the time line that Bob has railed against. The reality is that even your side has a gap in teh time line; it is just a different sized gap. You haven't avoided it; you have simply changed it.