490 YEARS DONE!!!!!

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
[QB] Bob,

Just a quick read shows that you still haven't read the passage carefully, you still haven't constructed a time line based on the passage

Obviously I HAVE constructed a timeline BASED on the events IN text -- and you have constructed one that you "splice and slice" and then stop as soon as it gets to even ONE messianic event MENTIONED in the text!

How wrong is that???!

I can't believe you could have ever come to believe such a thing.

, you still have not identified the baptism in the passage,

In fact I did. I SHOWED that the term Messiah is "the Annointed one" and I ALSO SHOW that it is the APPEARING of the MESSIAH that happens ON the 483 year boundry.

You have nothing what-so-ever happening ON That 483 year deadline EVEN though the text points DIRECTLY to it and saying that FROM the start UNTIL the very point in time that the Messiah appears - is exactly 483 years!!

You miss it entirely - and I get it right on the money!

How sad that you pretend not to notice that glaring flaw in your timeline.

THEN - the NEXT thing IN The timeline IN the text is the Messiah being "cut off" something that happens in the week AFTER the 69th week. Something I GET 100% - right on the money.

Something that you ignore ENTIRELY in your timeline - but must slice and splice your timeline to get to such a wrong conclusion because you can't get there exegetically - naturally by PRESERVING the timeline!!

And you think that is "compelling"?????

and you plainly ignore the mention of the "prince who is to come"

Hardly! I point out that vs 26 has "THE MESSIAH" and "THE PEOPLE of the prince". You land on "THE PRINCE" as if he is an actor in vs 26 -- when clearly "he is not".

You latch onto the "prince" but then admit that there is NO WAY the timeline COULD cover the prince UNLESS you chop it, slice it, dice it and toss it an undefined number of years in the future.

BTW - YOU ALSO claim that the CITY that is destroyed in Daniel 9 IS NOT the CITY that is BUILT in Daniel 9 --!!!

How wrong is that!!???

Your problems with this chapter appear to be myriad.

You said the passage talks about one person (Messiah) and one group (people of the prince).

Lets SEE if that is true.

26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Well what do you know - JUST as I said the SUBJECTs in vs 26 are the MESSIAH and the PEOPLE of the prince -- the prince takes no action AT ALL in vs 26!!

Amazing!

How obvious that the SINGLE person that DOES have focus in 26 is THE MESSIAH!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pastor Larry said --
Your last post tells an absolute whopper alleging that I admit that this "chopping" cannot be done with any other timeline. First, I deny any chopping is going on. The timeline is in tact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHAT!!!???

YOU take a 490 year timeline and CHOP off the last 7 years separating it by UNKNOWN GAPS OF TIME -- and then you "deny it"!!???

You then blindly insist that JUST as Jeremiahs 70 year timeline in Daniel 9:1-2 is left intact - SO YOU LEAVE the 490 year timeline IN TACT???!!

This is truly the home of the "whopper"!!

Pastor Larry - this takes the cake!!

This goes beyond the limit!!


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It deals with the Jewish people. Second, I already pointed out that timelines do have gaps, such as virtually every other prophecy in Daniel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe I forgot to read some post of yours in enough detail - WHERE exactly did you insert "GAPS of undefined time In the middle of the 1260 years"??

WHERE did you inser gaps of undefined time in the MIDDLE of the 2300 days??

Maybe I have grossly under-estimated your willingness to hack and chop timelines other than the one you pick on in Daniel 9! It never occurred to me that you would claim to do such a thing!!

Please show me more!! SHOW how you split up those other timelines!!

By the way - when I LEAVE the 490 year timeline in tact - it REMAINS as a 490 year TIMELINE that actually as 2 following 1. (you know - the "obvious").

When I LEAVE the 1260 year timeline of Daniel 7 in tact - Year 2 follows year 1 with no gaps of undefined time inserted.

When I LEAVE the 2300 year timeline of Daniel 8 in tact year 2 follows year 1 -- with no gaps of undefined time inserted.

When I leave the 70 years of Daniel 9:1-2 in tact - year 70 follows year 69 with NO gaps of undefined time inserted.

Do you notice "a pattern" there?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

You still haven't constructed that time line from the text. I can't believe you think you have. It is unbelievable to read this.

First, the text still says nothing about baptism. "Until Messiah the prince" does not equal "baptism," no matter which way you cut it.

Second, I did not claim that the "prince who is to come" is an actor in v. 26. But you cannot deny that he is a person foudn in v. 26. That is what you denied earlier. You said there was one person and one group. That is just plain wrong. There are two people and one group. The people are defined as follows of a person ... the prince who is to come, and he will make the covenant. That is plainly the prince who is to come. It is absurd to try to make it read any other way. The fact is that there are two people (Messiah and prince who is to come) and one group (people of the prince who is to come).

Third, read any prophecy in the first 7 chapters and you will find gaps, just as I said. That shouldn't be a surprise to you.

Fourth, the timeline is intact. The 490 years deals with Daniel's people, the Jews. During Christ's earthly ministry they were put on the shelf for their rejection of the Messiah. But as Paul reminds us, God has not abandoned his people. He will fulfill his promises made to them in the OT.

It is sad to see Bible study fall on such hard times. After all we have been through here, you could at least take the time to look at the passage. If you took an honest look, you would find yourself laughing at how simple this really is to figure out. You could find a number of Bible expositors that could help you understand the errors you are making. Hopefully you will. If you won't, God is still faithful and if you are a true believer in Jesus Christ you will see this all come to pass one day.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: "Please show me more!! SHOW how you split up those other timelines!!"

I think you accuse Pastor Larry falsely.
It is not he who splits up the time line.
It is the Bible.

1. Already in Daniel 9, the 70th week is seperated
from the 69th week.

2. In Romans 11 we see the why the seperation between
the 69th and 70th week is prolongued.
(If the Jews of Jesus'es day had accepted Jesus,
the 70th week probably would have followed right
after the 69th.)

Ro 11:25 (HCSB):
So that you will not be conceited, brothers,
I do not want you to be unaware of this secret:
a partial hardening has come to Israel until
the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Lu 21:24 - Show Context
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be
led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem
will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times
of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Oh, an "until" and "until the times" -- both
specify the gap between the 69th and 70th week.

The gap starts the day of pentacost 33AD and
ends at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
The 69 weeks are past, we are now in the gap, the
70th week of Daniel is the 7 years the
tribulation time.

Compare to peterist answers which are unable to
explain the time in which we live let alone
comprehend them.

 

[tamborine lady]

Oh Ed, you are such a riot!! ROFLOL

confused, but really funny. You have no proof that the scriptures you quoted have anything at all to do with the 490 years!

What makes you think those scriptures have anything at all to do with it???

Thanks for the laugh!!

Tam

 

[Ed Edwards]

Hello Sister Tamborine Lady. I hope you had
a nice laugh at my ministry. I mock your ministry
(that i can see here) in the same manner. Only heretofor i
managed to keep my opinions of your ministry
to myself. It worked so good, i think i'll move on.

Tamborine Lady: "What makes you think those scriptures
have anything at all to do with it??? "

The scriptures need to be put together with the
aid of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirt, BTW, spends
more time with individual Christians giving them
understanding of the scriptures than any other]
purpose other than comfort. Anyway, the peterist
way of putting the scriptures together leaves left
over scriptures. The peterists come up with an
eschatology incompatable with other great doctrines
such as the doctrine of salvation.
The a-millinnist way of putting the scripture together
leaves some scriputres not fitting in. The a-millinists
come up with an eschatology incompatable with
other great doctrines: like a literal translation whenever
possible. Yes, we can see a literal Messianic Kingdom
where Jesus rules on the Throne of David. (NO, the English
throne is NOT the Throne of David).

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
BobRyan: "Please show me more!! SHOW how you split up those other timelines!!"

I think you accuse Pastor Larry falsely.

Pastor Larry "claimed" to slice and splice all the other timelines in Daniel JUST as he was doing with the 490 year timeline.

Actually - it never occurred to me to accuse him of such a thing. ALL My posts have been in the form of accusing him of LEAVING ALL timelines intact (no slicing and dicing) EXCEPT the 490 year timeline where he puts a gap of "undefined time" INTO the 490 year timeline!

I was just asking him to SHOW me how this is consistently done with all other timelines as well. Slicing them up and inserting gaps of undefined time -- or ANY TIME GAPS INTO the timeline obliterates the timeline.

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quoteastor Larry said
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It deals with the Jewish people. Second, I already pointed out that timelines do have gaps, such as virtually every other prophecy in Daniel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob said

Maybe I forgot to read some post of yours in enough detail - WHERE exactly did you insert "GAPS of undefined time In the middle of the 1260 years"??

WHERE did you inser gaps of undefined time in the MIDDLE of the 2300 days??

Still waiting.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor Larry said -
Third, read any prophecy in the first 7 chapters and you will find gaps, just as I said. That shouldn't be a surprise to you.

I gave you 3 explicit timelines (the major ones in Daniel) for you to "show your work". To SHOW that your claim of inserting a gap of undefined time INTO the 490 year timeline is exactly what you ALSO do with the 1260 years of Daniel 7, and the 2300 years of Daniel 8 and the 70 years of Dan 9:1-2.

SHOW that in fact your slice-and-dice treatment of the 490 year timeline in Daniel 9 IS consistent and "established" by your ALSO slicing and splicing gaps INTO the other major timelines of Daniel.

You now claim to be inserting gaps only into timelines of chapters from 1-7 and not chapter 8 (the 2300 days or 2300 years).

Fine. That means you claim to insert a gap of undefined length of time into the 1260 year timeline of Daniel 7 and you claim to insert a
into the 7 year timeline of Daniel 4.

(Was there any other measured timeline in 1-7 that you were also thinking of?)

So far you have yet to back up that wild claim made in defense of your highly-unnusual treatment of the 490 year timeline of Daniel 7.

Still waiting.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor Larry said -
Fourth, the timeline is intact. The 490 years deals with Daniel's people

Fine -- now "show" when it starts and when it ends-- (you know... "the years").

Notice Daniel 9:1-2 -- suppose we insert a gap of undefined time between the start of Jeremiah's 70 years and the end of the timeline.

WHEN - does it start? With the captivity of Israel.

What year does it end? Hmmm "UNDEFINED!" because there is an undefined length of time INSERTED.

But in Ezra 1 we find that NO SUCH UNDEFINED gap was inserted into the 70 years, so that they knew exactly what year it was to end!

Get it? That is how a timeline REMAINS intact! By NOT inserting gaps of undefined length into the middle of it!

Now of course we can all see that this is just "obvious".

Doesn't it bother you just a little that you have to pretend like you don't notice the problem with inserting gaps into timelines where you have no clue as to the length of the gap?

I would be hard pressed to have to post such a position myself.

The 490 year timeline is accepted by all scholars as the GREAT messianic timeline of scripture.

Your view OMITS EVERY Messianic event LISTED in Daniel 9 FROM THAT TIMELINE!

Your view also takes the city of Jerusalem BUILT in the 490 year timeline and claims it is NOT the city of Jerusalem DESTROYED by the people of the prince!!

It inserts GAPS of years - and ANOTHER CITY into the prophecy!

How "instructive" for the objective reader.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The gap starts the day of pentacost 33AD and
ends at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
The 69 weeks are past, we are now in the gap, the
70th week of Daniel is the 7 years the
tribulation time.

If you start slicing up this timeline at the end of the 69th week - do you LEAVE OUT the great messianic event LISTED in the chapter - "the Messiah being cut off AFTER the 69th week"???

If you stop the 69th week at Pentecost - HOW in the WORLD do you get the MEssiah CUT OFF AFTER the 69th week???

Do you deny that the CITY REBUILT in Daniel 9 is NOT the city that is then predicted to be DESTROYED in Daniel 9??

If so - you seem to be stuck on the same horns of dilemma where Pastor Larry's view has failed.

How do you solve the problem?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Come on you guys - you have to admit that this has been a piece of cake for me - because the gaps and inconsistencies in your proposals have been so obvious and blatant.

Consider taking the more defensible - rational and obvious view for a minute. It has no gaps, a timeline that "really does" work (and by that I mean the "obvious" timeline start year and timeline end year just like Daniel 9:1-2), AND it leaves the great messianic prophecy INCLUSIVE of all the great Messianic events listed IN IT!

I have a rule when it comes to exegesis - "always do it right and it will always be the easiest to defend (less exposure to attack)- and the most obvious!"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Lu 21:24 - Show Context
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be
led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem
will be trampled by the Gentiles until the times
of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The gap starts the day of pentacost 33AD and
ends at the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.
The 69 weeks are past, we are now in the gap, the
70th week of Daniel is the 7 years the
tribulation time.

I agree, we are in the present gap between the 69th and 70th week. Two things I'd like to point out. The Jews falling by the sword and being led captive into all the nations is a future dispersion caused by the Gentiles (Muslims) trampling Jerusalem during the Tribulation. This did not occur after the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, they were dispersed but not "taken as prisoners to all the nations" (NIV).

The gap begins with the triumphal entry in Jerusalem when he was officially presented to the nation of Israel as the Messiah (Mt. 21:1-11). His presentation to Israel ended the 69 "sevens" just before Christ was cut off, that is, crucified.

The first two segments of the important time period - the 7 sevens (49 years) and the 62 sevens (434 years) - ran consecutively with no time between them. They totaled 483 years and extended from March 5, 444 BC to March 30 AD 33.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobyRyan: "I was just asking him to SHOW me how this
is consistently done with all other timelines as well.
Slicing them up and inserting gaps of undefined
time -- or ANY TIME GAPS INTO the timeline
obliterates the timeline."

I'm sorry you don't like the design. Please take
the matter up with the Master Designer.

But it does seem to me that FORCING the ministry of
Jesus into 3½-years = 1260 days = 42 months -- that
is as bad as trying to find 3 days and 3 nights
(like 72 hours) from Wednesday about 5PM to Sunday
about 5AM (like 36 hours).
There is little evidence beyond a ministry of Jesus
beyond 2½- years. Assuming a birthday of 25 Dec 1BC
then most evidence appears to be 2½-years NOT 3½-years.

BobRyan: "Notice Daniel 9:1-2 -- suppose we insert a gap of undefined time between the start of Jeremiah's 70 years and the end of the timeline.
WHEN - does it start? With the captivity of Israel.
What year does it end? Hmmm "UNDEFINED!" because there is an undefined length of time INSERTED.
But in Ezra 1 we find that NO SUCH UNDEFINED gap was inserted into the 70 years, so that they knew exactly what year it was to end!"

I'm sorry you don't like the design. Please take
the matter up with the Master Designer.

Please note that the Bible also tells how Jeremiah's 70 years
was done, and it is without gaps.

BTW, most preterists make the time from 33 (some say 27AD)
to the destruction of the temple in 70AD to be
either 1 generation = 40years = 1/2 a week
OR
add a 30 year gap between halves of the week
OR
spituralize/gnosticise the 70th week.


Prophecynut: "The Jews falling by the sword and being led captive into all the nations is a future dispersion caused by the Gentiles (Muslims) trampling Jerusalem during the Tribulation. This did not occur after the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, they were dispersed but not "taken as prisoners to all the nations" (NIV)."

I respectfully disagree.
Of a population of about 3 million Jews,
1 million were killed, 1 million
we sold into slavery (AKA: taken
as prisioners to all the nations),
and 1 million left alive.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Prophecynut: //I agree, we are in the present gap between the 69th and 70th week. ...

The gap begins with the triumphal entry in Jerusalem when he was officially presented to the nation of Israel as the Messiah (Mt. 21:1-11). His presentation to Israel ended the 69 "sevens" just before Christ was cut off, that is, crucified.

The first two segments of the important time period - the 7 sevens (49 years) and the 62 sevens (434 years) - ran consecutively with no time between them. They totaled 483 years and extended from March 5, 444 BC to March 30 AD 33.//

Amen, Brother Prophecynut -- Preach it!!

 

[prophecynut]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:


I respectfully disagree.
Of a population of about 3 million Jews,
1 million were killed, 1 million
we sold into slavery (AKA: taken
as prisioners to all the nations),
and 1 million left alive.

I've never seen any documentation for those figures, do you have any? Maybe Josephus?

Lk. 1:22 - "For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written." 70 AD was partial fulfillment what has been written, fulfillment of all that has been written will not occur until Jacob's trouble.

"There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people" (V. 23).
The "great distress" and "wrath" is synonymous with the "great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14), and the "distress" in Daniel 12:1.

Zec. 9:9-13 speaks of Zion's king coming and verse 12 the Jewish "prisoners" returning for the Millennium.

[ January 16, 2005, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: prophecynut ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

I found this on the first Google screen:
"nine hundred thousand Jews were captivated as slaves"

when i inquired against:
70AD "General Titus" slaves Jerusalem

The linked page did not contain the information???

 

[Pastor Larry]

Bob,

I have come to the conclusion that you are kidding. I seriously have no other explanation for what you are saying. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

[prophecynut]

I found something on it, Titus made a triumphal procession into Rome before his father Vespasian. In front of Titus were paraded 700 Jewish captives as well as some of the vessels from the Temple, a menorah, a table of shewbread, and some silver trumpets.

Rome was the only nation destroying Jerusalem in 70 AD whereas in the future many nations will invade Israel, probably the same nations where Jews will become captives.