5 Questions for Arminians

[whetstone]

now now folks lets not get nasty

I have decided that I don't really have the time to reply to all of the objections to my objections. I will start a new thread soon explaining the Biblical answers to my 5 questions. In the mean time (to tide you all over), here's my Biblical explanation for why Calvinism is true (so you guys don't think I'm all questions).

http://www.pre-evangelism.com/learn/theology_articles/soteriology/whycalvinist.htm

No philosophy, no quotes from famous Calvinists- nothing but scripture and brief commentary. The doctrines of grace are simply put: the gospel according to Jesus.

In Christ,

Daniel Allen
www.pre-evangelism.com

 

[here now]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by here now:
On one hand it's a waste of time BUT,on the other, who knows when God will give eyes to see and ears to hear. But until then(if indeed it ever happens)it's pretty fruitless.

Yes, here now, I pray that for you, that you will open your eyes and see the truth that's been presented to you over and over, which you stubbornly refuse to evaluate! </font>[/QUOTE]First, my eyes are open. But you know what, it was not I that opened them. The One that gets ALL of the glory for that is God. And to say any different is to deny His word.
I have total trust and faith that the word of GOD is just that, His Word. And it would be WRONG for me to add to or take anything away from that.

Second, the TRUTH that I receive is in the Word of God(let me reiterate, which I FULLY 100% believe), and that Word comes from no man, because I am taught by the Holy Spirit. And when I hear things that are contrary to what the Bible says, I evaluate them alright. They are filed in the DENIAL of God drawer.
*************************

Man does not give himself Eternal Life....Blind men do not cause themselves to see....deaf men do not cause themslves to hear.....one does not give birth to oneself...dead men do not give themselves life

My statement: I accuse no man....Why should I, God shines His Light where it is His will.

Sincerely,
Here Now

 

[Wes Outwest]

Man does not give himself Eternal Life....Blind men do not cause themselves to see....deaf men do not cause themslves to hear.....one does not give birth to oneself...dead men do not give themselves life

My statement: I accuse no man....Why should I, God shines His Light where it is His will.

I presume by your comment you have found something in my posts that say that man saves himself. Would you mind Quoting the whole post so that we can discuss what you think I said?

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Wes;
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My God is not love. My God is Spirit who just happens to love! Who also just happens to show favor to his created man, who also just happens to extend mercy toward us mere mortals.

Up until now I have tried to see through some of what you were saying giving you the benifit of doubt, but this is a denial of God's plain teaching from His word. It's as plain as the nose on your face. If God is unlimited why do you attempt to make it seem like you keep Him in a box under your bed?
Just as your assumption of parts Bible not being the inspired word of God this is just plainly not truth.
God isn't limited in anything and especially in what He consist of. He is Spiritual and He is Love. God is what His Word says. He is Spirit and He is Love and what ever else He wants to be God is limitless. Don't you know that.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

</font>[/QUOTE]Think it through Iluvlight, Just what have I said that Limits God?

 

[here now]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Man does not give himself Eternal Life....Blind men do not cause themselves to see....deaf men do not cause themslves to hear.....one does not give birth to oneself...dead men do not give themselves life

My statement: I accuse no man....Why should I, God shines His Light where it is His will.

I presume by your comment you have found something in my posts that say that man saves himself. Would you mind Quoting the whole post so that we can discuss what you think I said? </font>[/QUOTE]That was just my attempt at saying if one does not believe that the Bible is,in whole,the Holy Word of God then it has just not been revealed to him, by God.

I said I accuse no man because of the statement you made about accusing the Brethen.

Although I say I accuse no man, that does not stop me from pointing out untruths. That just stops me from saying that it is the fault of the person making the statements.

 

[icthus]

Calvinism in its self is a blindness, and a distortion to the plain teachings of the Bible. It is only a Calvinist who will take the word "world" in John 3:16, and give it the meaning "elect"! If this were the case, then it makes complete nonsense to say: "whosoever believes" from the "elect", as if there are some who might not. Nor would it make any sense to say "should not perish", for these same "elect", as though they can perish. can you see the complete nonsense that Calvinism teaches, and yet they say that it based on the Word of God!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by here now:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Man does not give himself Eternal Life....Blind men do not cause themselves to see....deaf men do not cause themslves to hear.....one does not give birth to oneself...dead men do not give themselves life

My statement: I accuse no man....Why should I, God shines His Light where it is His will.

Here now, I presume by your comment you have found something in my posts that say that man saves himself. Would you mind Quoting the whole post so that we can discuss what you think I said? </font>[/QUOTE]That was just my attempt at saying if one does not believe that the Bible is,in whole,the Holy Word of God then it has just not been revealed to him, by God.

I said I accuse no man because of the statement you made about accusing the Brethen.

Although I say I accuse no man, that does not stop me from pointing out untruths. That just stops me from saying that it is the fault of the person making the statements. </font>[/QUOTE]First, I believe the bible in its intirety is scripture inspired by God, and that it is trustworthy for edification. I do not however believe that it is in its entirety spoken directly by God. Anyone who does believe that, quite simply has not read it! By this time tomorrow, I will have read it through cover to cover again for double-digit times. I can assure you that there are many parts of the bible that God did not quote to the author. Even Revelation contains parts that are John's perception of what He saw in his visionary trip into heaven. Inspired? Absolutely, Entirely God spoken? NO! [John 17:14] "I passed your word on to them, and the world hated them, (the Apostles) because they belong to the world no more than I belong to the world.

[John 17:20] "I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me." God the son gave the word to the Apostles, who, in their own words, gave the word of God to us. It is the Apostles who were "taught by God", it is the rest of us who are taugh by the Apostles via the bible, the Holy Word of God.

Second, I challenge you to prove that what I say is not true.

Third, Yes, I am the first to say that I believe the same truths that you believe, but I believe them differently than you do because I am not biased to one set of dogma as you are! And indeed Paul sets the record strait regarding theological thinking,

1 Cor 1:10-16 Brothers, I urge you, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, not to have factions among yourselves but all to be in agreement in what you profess; so that you are perfectly united in your beliefs and judgments. 11From what Chloe's people have been telling me about you, brothers, it is clear that there are serious differences among you. 12 What I mean is this: every one of you is declaring, `I belong to Paul,' or `I belong to Apollos,' or `I belong to Cephas,' or `I belong to Christ.' 13 Has Christ been split up? Was it Paul that was crucified for you, or was it in Paul's name that you were baptized? 14 I am thankful I did not baptize any of you, except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so that no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 Yes, I did baptize the family of Stephanas, too; but besides these I do not think I baptized anyone.

Some are saying "I belong to Calvin", some are saying "I belong to Arminius". Not me, I do not adhere to either of their understandings! I adhere to the Christ, the Son of God who came to us in the flesh so that He alone would be the propitiation for sin, and He alone would make it possible for man to have everlasting life. He, God the son, alone is worthy. He deserves our ADHERENCE. Set aside Arminius, Set aside Calvin, Neither are worthy of our adherence.

 

[rc]

It is the Apostles who were "taught by God", it is the rest of us who are taught by the Apostles via the bible, the Holy Word of God.

Second, I challenge you to prove that what I say is not true.

1 Thessalonians 4:9 Now concerning brotherly love you have no need for anyone to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another,

That is, they will be children of the Church, for so the prophet Isaiah expounds it in &lt;Is 54:13&gt;; that is to say, ordained to life, \\see Geneva "Ac 13:48"\\, and therefore the knowledge of the heavenly truth is the gift and work of God, and does not rest in any power of man.

ALL who are servants of the Lord are "taught by God" Jesus quoted Isaiah Wes... He was NOT talking about the disciples but all who the father draws. You really look ridiculous clinging to this eisegesis time to give it up!

 

[Wes Outwest]

God did not walk among and teach the Thessalonians! There is no record of that happening. In truth, God the Son, Jesus did not roam over 100 miles from his place of birth. So to say that the Thessalonians were taught by God is to say that the Apostles who went to the Thessalonians, taught them God's words second hand, and not directly by God! The apostle Paul was directed to Thessalonica to teach them the word of God.

Citing 1 Thessalonians 4:9 does not prove me wrong. It does prove John 17 accurate. In John 17 Jesus clearly states that HE alone taught the Apostles all that God gave to Jesus to teach. And that the Apostles through their teaching pass on what Jesus taught them so that whosoever believeth what the Word of God handed down from generation to generation, receive the same word of God. That is the means through which we today are taught by God.

Jesus was speaking for himself, and not quoting Isaiah. Jesus is GOD the SON rc, Isaiah was merely a human prophet of God who spoke what God gave him to speak!

I believe Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I draw ALL to me!" Isaiah a mere human that was a prophet of God, speaking only what God gave him to speak, was foretelling the very words God the Son would use to convince the everyday common man that Jesus is indeed God the Son, come in the flesh to dwell amongst men, and to remove the penalty of sin from the world.

There is nothing wrong with my eisegesis, except to one like yourself whose bias does not allow for other perspectives.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by icthus:
Calvinism in its self is a blindness, and a distortion to the plain teachings of the Bible. It is only a Calvinist who will take the word "world" in John 3:16, and give it the meaning "elect"! If this were the case, then it makes complete nonsense to say: "whosoever believes" from the "elect", as if there are some who might not. Nor would it make any sense to say "should not perish", for these same "elect", as though they can perish. can you see the complete nonsense that Calvinism teaches, and yet they say that it based on the Word of God!

It's easy to 'defeat' Calvinism when you don't even know what Calvinists believe. I could defeat anyone of any religion if I just misrepresent what they teach. Your explanation of John 3:16 isn't what Calvinists believe at all. Read this for a little insight on the Calvinist view of John 3:16.

In Christ,

Daniel Allen
www.pre-evangelism.com

 

[icthus]

Originally posted by whetstone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by icthus:
Calvinism in its self is a blindness, and a distortion to the plain teachings of the Bible. It is only a Calvinist who will take the word "world" in John 3:16, and give it the meaning "elect"! If this were the case, then it makes complete nonsense to say: "whosoever believes" from the "elect", as if there are some who might not. Nor would it make any sense to say "should not perish", for these same "elect", as though they can perish. can you see the complete nonsense that Calvinism teaches, and yet they say that it based on the Word of God!

It's easy to 'defeat' Calvinism when you don't even know what Calvinists believe. I could defeat anyone of any religion if I just misrepresent what they teach. Your explanation of John 3:16 isn't what Calvinists believe at all. Read this for a little insight on the Calvinist view of John 3:16.

In Christ,

Daniel Allen
www.pre-evangelism.com </font>[/QUOTE]Daniel, if you accept the spin on this verse as found at this link, then I feel really sorry for you and all those who do so. It is a complete destortion of the plain truth as taught in Scripture, and a weak attempt by Calvinists to try to find a "solution" to this verse which clearly teaches that the atonement of Jesus Christ is indeed for everyone without exception. Any other understanding of this is a false gospel!

 

[whetstone]

Daniel, if you accept the spin on this verse as found at this link, then I feel really sorry for you and all those who do so. It is a complete destortion of the plain truth as taught in Scripture, and a weak attempt by Calvinists to try to find a "solution" to this verse which clearly teaches that the atonement of Jesus Christ is indeed for everyone without exception. Any other understanding of this is a false gospel!

Translation: "If anyone has an interpretation of a verse that isn't mine- it's a FALSE GOSPEL!"

PS- I wrote what the link leads to.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Wes;
I have thought about what you said and my stand is still the same. You're right I am a literalist and I don't see how anyone could be anything different. There is not one sceanerio in the entire Bible that isn't true. Anything less than literal isn't true. God doesn't lie or make up fiction.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Hi Wes;
I have thought about what you said and my stand is still the same. You're right I am a literalist and I don't see how anyone could be anything different. There is not one sceanerio in the entire Bible that isn't true. Anything less than literal isn't true. God doesn't lie or make up fiction.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

Um...a 'scenario' generally isn't a real story!

sce·nar·i·o Pronunciation Key (s-nâr-, -när-, -nr-) n. pl. sce·nar·i·os

1. An outline of the plot of a dramatic or literary work.

Anyways, i would have to say 'yes there are stories in the Bible.' Heard of parables? While they were based on events that the disciples were familiar with, they were not necessarily real events. "Anything less than literal isn't true?" Where do you take prophecy into account then? There are so many metaphors in Revelation they couldn't be counted! A more balanced view of Bible study is that a verse should be taken literally UNLESS there is good reason to take it figuratively. 'Like' or 'as' are pretty good indicators that we aren't to take it literally. Follow?

Dan

 

[Wes Outwest]

That is somewhat my point Dan, but I believe there is more than similitudes. I believe there are realities to compare to, and to which similitudes can be applied today. I believe there are realities today that compare to the realities in the bible "stories", and if one takes the bible completely literal, one misses todays' application of the principles.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Whetstone;

Anyways, i would have to say 'yes there are stories in the Bible.' Heard of parables? While they were based on events that the disciples were familiar with, they were not necessarily real events. "Anything less than literal isn't true?"

So then you are saying that most of what Christ said is a lie. Thats contradictiory to scripture isn't it.
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Seems like you believe God is a liar if so why believe anything He says?
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

[rc]

So to say that the Thessalonians were taught by God is to say that the Apostles who went to the Thessalonians, taught them God's words second hand, and not directly by God!

It doesn't say that!!

Paul said You yourselves where taught by God... not indirectly by God through us... sorry.. can't add to scripture Wes....

""Jesus was speaking for himself, and not quoting Isaiah""

He wasn't quoting Isaiah? ... This is the worst I've seen yet.... He wasn't quoting Isaiah huh?
Let's look at the verse in John again shall we?

IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me -

Jesus said "It is written in the prophets" ....
hmmmm Wes your slobbering again. I take this as you don't even read the scripture that you are supposedly exegeting. Your bias has blinded you so bad you can't even see words in the same text you are talking about! You need to take a hermeneutics class badly.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

rc;

Wes your slobbering again. I take this as you don't even read the scripture that you are supposedly exegeting. Your bias has blinded you so bad you can't even see words in the same text you are talking about! You need to take a hermeneutics class badly.

Maybe so. Maybe not. One thing for sure you need to take a Bible class, because you don't know what you're talking about.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

[rc]

"Maybe so. Maybe not. One thing for sure you need to take a Bible class, because you don't know what you're talking about"

What kind of a reply is that? Stay to the topic !!

Christ quoted Isaiah, you said he didn't....

Just say you are wrong !!! Sorry!! Good one rc!! I guess my foundation for my whole exegesis on "those taught by God" is wrong and I have to rethink this? .... arogance !!

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Maybe so. Maybe not. One thing for sure you need to take a Bible class, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Has anyone ever watched Pee-Wee Herman?

"I know you are but what am I? INFINITY!"

Arguments like these are the bottom line when you've no place left to go.