5 reasons why the Preterist and/or semi-preterist position is impossible

[Calypsis4]

Actually, there are more than 5 reasons but this is for starters:

1. The most obvious: Jesus did not return to earth in A.D. 70 nor any other date of that time. He is to return to earth physically, visibly, and to establish a visible kingdom. The prophecies of Revelation therefore, could not have been fulfilled in A.D. 70 because John didn't even write that blessed book until well over two decades after Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans.


Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east...

Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The angel confirmed this to Jesus disciples at Jesus ascension into heaven and that he would return visibly:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 ¶ Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet...

2. There was no antichrist (world dictator) as was prophesied I Thess.2, I John, and Revelation. There was no 'mark of the beast', no '666' and no world government in which a dictator would rule over the whole earth for 42 months. Nero could not have been the antichrist for he was Roman Emperor from A.D. 54 to 68.(14 years).

3. the Revelation was written by John in approx. A.D. 96 as testified by external evidence of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23)

4. None of the prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled yet. That includes the 7 seals, the 7 trumpet judgments, the 7 vials of wrath, and including the 3 woes. None of them as depicted by John on a world-wide scale occurred on or near A.D. 70 nor any other time in human history.

...and like the Russian nuclear disaster at Chernobyl in the 80's (the Hebrew word for it is 'Wormwood'), notwithstanding; the details did not agree with Revelation 8:11. Therefore, the prophecies of Revelation are yet future and apply to that period of time Jeremiah referred to as 'the time of Jacob's trouble' and what Daniel called the 'seventieth week' (Dan. 9:24-27.)

5. John said that when Jesus returns that 'He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see'(Rev. 1:7...but the fact is that NNE saw Jesus return in A.D. 70. Neither was the kingdom that the prophets spoke of established at that time in any way, shape, or form.

 

[HankD]

Thanks Calypsis,

Another scripture which is virtually unexplainable according to preterists is
2 Peter 3

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I believe preterist still insist that this passage was fulfilled and we were/are unaware of it because it was a "spiritual" thing.

But Peter says "But the heavens and the earth, which are now" not the "new heavens and new earth" comparing the the literal and material pre-deluvian world to the literal and material post-deluvian world and its scoffers to be judged by fire.

HankD

 

[Calypsis4]

Thanks Calypsis,

Another scripture which is virtually unexplainable according to preterists is
2 Peter 3

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I believe preterist still insist that this passage was fulfilled and we were/are unaware of it because it was a "spiritual" thing.

But Peter says "But the heavens and the earth, which are now" not the "new heavens and new earth" comparing the the literal and material pre-deluvian world to the literal and material post-deluvian world and its scoffers to be judged by fire.

HankD

Thanks for that, Hank. You are dead-on correct.:thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

Thanks Calypsis,

Another scripture which is virtually unexplainable according to preterists is
2 Peter 3

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

I believe preterist still insist that this passage was fulfilled and we were/are unaware of it because it was a "spiritual" thing.

But Peter says "But the heavens and the earth, which are now" not the "new heavens and new earth" comparing the the literal and material pre-deluvian world to the literal and material post-deluvian world and its scoffers to be judged by fire.

HankD

It is a fact that Jerusalem and the Temple, where the Jews continued the abomination of useless blood offering, was destroyed in 70AD just as Jesus Christ promised!

 

[Revmitchell]

Actually, there are more than 5 reasons but this is for starters:

1. The most obvious: Jesus did not return to earth in A.D. 70 nor any other date of that time. He is to return to earth physically, visibly, and to establish a visible kingdom. The prophecies of Revelation therefore, could not have been fulfilled in A.D. 70 because John didn't even write that blessed book until well over two decades after Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans.


Zech 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east...

Zech 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The angel confirmed this to Jesus disciples at Jesus ascension into heaven and that he would return visibly:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

12 ¶ Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet...

2. There was no antichrist (world dictator) as was prophesied I Thess.2, I John, and Revelation. There was no 'mark of the beast', no '666' and no world government in which a dictator would rule over the whole earth for 42 months. Nero could not have been the antichrist for he was Roman Emperor from A.D. 54 to 68.(14 years).

3. the Revelation was written by John in approx. A.D. 96 as testified by external evidence of the highest quality.

Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23)

4. None of the prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled yet. That includes the 7 seals, the 7 trumpet judgments, the 7 vials of wrath, and including the 3 woes. None of them as depicted by John on a world-wide scale occurred on or near A.D. 70 nor any other time in human history.

...and like the Russian nuclear disaster at Chernobyl in the 80's (the Hebrew word for it is 'Wormwood'), notwithstanding; the details did not agree with Revelation 8:11. Therefore, the prophecies of Revelation are yet future and apply to that period of time Jeremiah referred to as 'the time of Jacob's trouble' and what Daniel called the 'seventieth week' (Dan. 9:24-27.)

5. John said that when Jesus returns that 'He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see'(Rev. 1:7...but the fact is that NNE saw Jesus return in A.D. 70. Neither was the kingdom that the prophets spoke of established at that time in any way, shape, or form.

Denying a future, literal, and physical return of Christ is one of if not the most evil doctrines around today.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ahaaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaa:laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Denying a future, literal, and physical return of Christ is one of if not the most evil doctrines around today.

About on the same level as the doctrine that Jesus Christ died for a
"parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel who murdered HIM!

 

[HankD]

About on the same level as the doctrine that Jesus Christ died for a
"parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel who murdered HIM!

True, yet no one here believes in the "church parenthesis" theory that I know of OR but we have more than one full preterist.

HankD

 

[OldRegular]

True, yet no one here believes in the "church parenthesis" theory that I know of OR but we have more than one full preterist.

HankD

I understand that but classic Dispensational Doctrine as taught by Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie and others is that the Church is a "parenthesis", an intercalation in GOD's program for National Israel. My belief is that the primary program GOD had for National Israel was to be the vehicle through whom the Incarnation would occur followed by the murder of Jesus Christ by what was left of National Israel at the time.

Something that is never mentioned; Jesus Christ was a Jew but HE had Gentile DNA in HIS ancestry, Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth! Of course there were believers before the call of Abraham and Gentile believers after that call and the Scripture is clear that Gentiles would be brought into the Household of Faith after the Incarnation.

I would also not that there is a vast difference between the partial preterist and full preterist. I am a partial preterist in the sense I believe 70AD was GOD's judgment on Israel. I do not believe that there was any visible appearance of Jesus Christ at that time..

 

[Calypsis4]

Ahaaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaaa haaaaaa:laugh:

That's some real deep theology you've got there, pal.:jesus:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

True, yet no one here believes in the "church parenthesis" theory that I know of OR but we have more than one full preterist.

HankD

Hank....can you be sure of that? Maybe they wont publically admit to it. .... but!!!!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's some real deep theology you've got there, pal.:jesus:

Regarding your theology.......I agree, deep in bs! :laugh:

 

[Calypsis4]

Regarding your theology.......I agree, deep in bs! :laugh:

Define 'bs'. Spell it out so everyone can see what a godly person you are.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ephesians 4:29:flower:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Define 'bs'. Spell it out so everyone can see what a godly person you are.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. Ephesians 4:29:flower:

Why.....are you that stupid you cant figure it out?

 

[Calypsis4]

Why.....are you that stupid you cant figure it out?

Oh, what a sweet, loving Christian you are!raying:

As I requested.......spell it out.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand that but classic Dispensational Doctrine as taught by Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie and others is that the Church is a "parenthesis", an intercalation in GOD's program for National Israel. My belief is that the primary program GOD had for National Israel was to be the vehicle through whom the Incarnation would occur followed by the murder of Jesus Christ by what was left of National Israel at the time.

Something that is never mentioned; Jesus Christ was a Jew but HE had Gentile DNA in HIS ancestry, Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth! Of course there were believers before the call of Abraham and Gentile believers after that call and the Scripture is clear that Gentiles would be brought into the Household of Faith after the Incarnation.

I would also not that there is a vast difference between the partial preterist and full preterist. I am a partial preterist in the sense I believe 70AD was GOD's judgment on Israel. I do not believe that there was any visible appearance of Jesus Christ at that time..

:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh, what a sweet, loving Christian you are!raying:

As I requested.......spell it out.

Oh I love you .... thats why i suggest this to you specifically.....so,'Go take flying leap for yourself.' :wavey:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I understand that but classic Dispensational Doctrine as taught by Chafer, Walvoord, Ryrie and others is that the Church is a "parenthesis", an intercalation in GOD's program for National Israel. My belief is that the primary program GOD had for National Israel was to be the vehicle through whom the Incarnation would occur followed by the murder of Jesus Christ by what was left of National Israel at the time.

Something that is never mentioned; Jesus Christ was a Jew but HE had Gentile DNA in HIS ancestry, Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth! Of course there were believers before the call of Abraham and Gentile believers after that call and the Scripture is clear that Gentiles would be brought into the Household of Faith after the Incarnation.

I would also not that there is a vast difference between the partial preterist and full preterist. I am a partial preterist in the sense I believe 70AD was GOD's judgment:1_grouphug: on Israel. I do not believe that there was any visible appearance of Jesus Christ at that time..

That sums it up brother....thanks :applause:

 

[Calypsis4]

Oh I love you .... thats why i suggest this to you specifically.....so,'Go take flying leap for yourself.' :wavey:

You still didn't spell it out, O unkind one. Why is that?

Please tell the board members why you did not spell out 'bs' for us...in detail...just before you join OR in the ranks of the non-existent.

So, "I love you" somehow qualifies as a proper Christian response in the same sentence as '...go take a flying leap for yourself.' Got you.

Where I come from that's called, 'attitude'.

Make it good for this will be the last comment of yours I will be reading.

 

[Greektim]

Actually, there are more than 5 reasons but this is for starters:

1. The most obvious: Jesus did not return to earth in A.D. 70 nor any other date of that time. He is to return to earth physically, visibly, and to establish a visible kingdom. The prophecies of Revelation therefore, could not have been fulfilled in A.D. 70 because John didn't even write that blessed book until well over two decades after Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans.

I thought this thread was for partial preterist too??? So much for the most obvious.

2. There was no antichrist (world dictator) as was prophesied I Thess.2, I John, and Revelation. There was no 'mark of the beast', no '666' and no world government in which a dictator would rule over the whole earth for 42 months. Nero could not have been the antichrist for he was Roman Emperor from A.D. 54 to 68.(14 years).

According to 1 John, many antichrists have already gone out in the world.

3. the Revelation was written by John in approx. A.D. 96 as testified by external evidence of the highest quality.

I wonder if you know where the sources for the external witness come from and if they are reliable. Yes, Ire. and Poly. were close to John the apostle, but how about the guy who is recording them?

Nevertheless, if this is true, what does it say about all the words in Rev. that talk about "soon" and "not long"?

4. None of the prophecies of Revelation have been fulfilled yet. That includes the 7 seals, the 7 trumpet judgments, the 7 vials of wrath, and including the 3 woes. None of them as depicted by John on a world-wide scale occurred on or near A.D. 70 nor any other time in human history.

...and like the Russian nuclear disaster at Chernobyl in the 80's (the Hebrew word for it is 'Wormwood'), notwithstanding; the details did not agree with Revelation 8:11. Therefore, the prophecies of Revelation are yet future and apply to that period of time Jeremiah referred to as 'the time of Jacob's trouble' and what Daniel called the 'seventieth week' (Dan. 9:24-27.)

You assume the genre of Rev is prophecy. That is a mistake. It is an apocalyptic. And they weren't about tell the future but rather talking about end of world symbolism to talk about their present day.

5. John said that when Jesus returns that 'He cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see'(Rev. 1:7...but the fact is that NNE saw Jesus return in A.D. 70. Neither was the kingdom that the prophets spoke of established at that time in any way, shape, or form.

Again, how does this relate to the partial preterist? And if Jesus has triumphed as the Lion of the Tribe of David the root of Jesse sitting in the middle of the throne of God, then I would say the kingdom has been established. The King has overcome and is enthroned. Sounds like the beginnings of a kingdom to me. And that is just in Rev. This is taught throughout the NT.

Pretty weak stuff in my opinion.