5 Things This Calvinist Believes

Now do you have to be so sarcastic? Or did God predetermine that you were that way so you really can't help it?

I am sorry, I misspoke, in a sense. I still stand by what I said, though. I think we should pray that the circumstances in their life would be most conducive for salvation and for the conviction and drawing of the Holy Spirit. Do you really believe that the apostle Paul was asking God to save people against their own desire? "God, save him, even if he doesn't want it." Hmm.....yeah, sure. Although, he prayed that they would "be saved," not "save them."

Your second Scripture reference really has nothing to do with the matter at hand. Paul is just commanding us to pray and telling us God's desire. I don't believe that just because God desires something that He forces it to happen. Do you really believe that God desired to send His Son to die? But He did to demonstrate His love, despite it being so painful.

Sure, you are commanded, but according to your thinking it is of no real value other than jumping through the hoops that God has for us. Prayer would have absolutely no impact on anything if everything is already predetermined. You take away the whole point of prayer. Do it because God commands. I do it because it is commanded and may have some bearing in this world.

And why are you so worried with this sin issue anyway? You keep bringing it up like it is a big deal. Everyone will be saved, right? You have totally trivialized sin in your system. There is no reason not to sin. You don't seem to realize that your system has totally trivialized and taken away the meaning of pretty much everything. We are really just living in a big illusion.

Ken, I would appreciate it if you would deal with the issues at hand. You come in and try to point out a problem. I answer, you go on. I point out problems (serious ones, as in the other thread on universalism) and you just ignore them. Do you just leave it up to mystery? Contradictory things are okay with you because it is all just one big mystery? According to your soteriology, Luke 13:3 is a lie, correct? No one will perish, right? Hmm....I think as you told me before, that dog won't hunt. You don't really understand what your system does to God and who you paint Him out to be. He is deceptive because He has given all these commands and apparent choices, yet they are all a farce and have no substence. Do you really believe in a God like that?

Neal

[ May 25, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

Whether we like it or not Yelsew, I quoted Scripture. I understand the physics you are speaking of, but the facts are such that the Spirit does not physically exert a force upon an individual, but that by falling on the individual i.e. entering into a person dead in sin it does so against the will of the spirit of man which is enmity against God. This is the travail of the new birth.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

No, I was just being silly. Now to be serious:

Aren't you asking God to arrange things in your system to at least make it much easier for a person to exercise his "free" will? Aren't you asking God to intervene in circumstances instead of just letting events take their natural course, forcing events into a different arrangement? Do you have a problem with God sending an angel to Cornelius? Or do you have a problem with Jesus knocking Paul flat to the ground and blinding him? God doesn't do this for everyone.

Perhaps our difference boils down to the fact that I want to see people saved regardless of what has to take place to bring them to Christ. Evidently you can't ask for that in prayer since according to your system God's hands are at least somewhat tied and in the final analysis the result is pretty much in man's "free" hands.

 

What would Mullins say about regeneration?

Again, spiritual and moral force is still forcing man to do something he does not want to do. If man is compelled by the Spirit and is given a choice to accept or reject, there is no forcing.

But what the BF&M conspicuously does not say is that God regenerates sinners before salvation. In one of our views, regeneration comes after man says "yes" to God. In another one of our views, God regenerates a man without his permission.

It's somewhat compatible, but you take it a step further. The Baptist Faith and Message does not say that man is regenerated before salvation; you do.

Even though you have admitted on this thread that it is a spiritual or moral forcing? Interesting.

 

Yes, that is the point of prayer, isn't it? Why pray, "God, do what You were going to do. By the way, save so and so." Now what if so and so was not God's elect? You have just asked Him to do something that He can't. And natural course? No, I don't believe in fatalism.

Also, the two examples you give are just fine with me. God was interrupting their lives. Yet God did not force either of them. What He gave each was enough to persuade them. No, I don't believe that God's hands are tied. I just don't believe in a God that forces people to do things no matter what they want. Those who do not obey have a consequence to that choice. I have no problem with that, you do.

Why can't I ask for circumstances to be most conducive for the person's salvation? And the conviction of the Holy Spirit? You don't seem to see that according to your system there is no reason to ask for people to be saved, they all will according to you, whether they want to or not!

Neal

 

Ah, yes, dear friend Neal, but it is God who provides the "want to".

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

Then it truly is not "want to." Nevermind there is no proof of this, either.

So we are just computers that God decides to install a program on and run it? Right?

Neal

 

Sure there is.

Ephes. 2:4-5 (ESV)
[4]But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Who makes us alive from death - it is God!

Who makes us alive from death - it is God!!

Who makes us alive from death - it is GOD!!!

Can you hear me now?

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

Sure there is.

Ephes. 2:4-5 (ESV)
[4]But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Who makes us alive from death - it is God!

Who makes us alive from death - it is God!!

Who makes us alive from death - it is GOD!!!

Can you hear me now?

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/ </font>[/QUOTE]It still requires the individual's approval or agreement or permission! God does not save the unwilling! Are you listening?

 

Thank-you, Yelsew.

Neal

 

Obviously, I am unable to clearly make my points so that they are understandable at the current time. My debate skills are simply not up to the skill level of others in this forum.

Therefore, I am withdrawing for at least a while from the debate field of war.

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/

 

So what makes them willing?

 

Neal:

This statement makes it clear that your comprehension of "Calvinism" is misconstrued. "Calvinists" affirm not only divine sovereignty but also human responsibility. "Calvinists" also believe that God not only ordains the ends but the means (prayer, evangelism, etc.). So, the Lord is going to use prayer, the proclamation of the gospel, etc., to draw the elect to Himself.

As St. Paul declared, "I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory" (2 Timothy 2:10).

So, if we are not to pray that God "saves" somebody, then can we really attribute salvation entirely to God?

Why pray for things that God is going to do anyway? 1) Because God commands it. 2) Because God uses means to accomplish His purposes. 3) Because God commands it.

Was it foretold that the Jews would return from the Babylonian Exile? Then why did Daniel pray for that to happen?

Did the Lord inform Elijah that there would be drought in the land for several years? Then why did Elijah pray?

Did the Lord Jesus Christ tell us that He would return? Then why should we pray for His return?

 

Hardsheller wrote,

Amen! Of course our Arminian leaning brothers will continually say we don't believe that

 

Maybe because we have been created in God's image? What makes Him willing? We have reason and the power of choice as a result of this (of course not on the same level as God).

Neal

 

I am talking of saving them against their choice (i.e. forced salvation). Of course God is the one that saves. I am talking about walking down the street and when you pass someone you pray for God to save them and zap, their saved, whether they wanted to be or not.

Neal

 

I know it is a little off topic, but do the Calvinists here believe that what God desires He brings to pass?

Neal

 

Harsheller --
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5 Things This Calvinist Believes

1. All men Can Freely Make Choices
2. God does not force any person to do something that person doesn’t want to do.
3. People are in Hell not because of God but because of their own unbelief.
4. God is fair.
5. Evangelism is Necessary.

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Does God lie in your view?

When HE says "God so loved the World" did He really? Or is he like a sleezy lawfirm using weasel words to make you "think" He has committed Himself to a generous WORLD view when in fact He only "cares about the arbitrarily selected FEW" of Matt 7?

When God says "He is not WILLING for ANY to perish but that ALL should come to repentance" - is He telling the truth - or a lie?

When God says "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS (the saints) and not for OURS ONLY but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" - does he lie?

When God says "HE supernaturally and sovereignly DRAWS ALL mankind to Himself" does he lie?

When God says "He convicts THE WORLD of Sin and Righteousness and Judgment" does he lie?

When God says "HE IS the light that coming into the world enlightens EVERYONE of mankind" does he lie?

When God says that those who rebell against Him "REJECT God's PURPOSE for them" Luke 7 - does he lie?

When God SAYS "There is NO partiality with God" Romans 2 between the lost and the saved - does He lie?

Because IF your God is telling the truth in these cases AND these are not weasel terms that he must squirm out of so that He can get back to "only loving the FEW of Matt 7" - THEN indeed "there is NO partiality with God" which means by definition - He is truly "fair" as you say.

But I never met a calvinist who served that kind of God. I am anxious to hear how you have merged this Bible view of God - with classic Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob