5 Things This Calvinist Believes

Regarding your 5th point -

Do you use Arminian or Calvinist terms in Evangelism?

Do you (in faithfulness to Calvinism) stand up and say "NOTHING you or I decide today will change the fact that God only cares about the FEW of Matt 7. We do not know if YOU are one of those FEW and we do not know if God will decide to save you TODAY - let us be quiet now and see what God has already decided to do. And remember - we have NO PART in this at all - it is ALL of God. Now quiet please".

Or do you say "TODAY may be your last day to decide. God IS calling you to repentance! He loves you and me, He died for you and me. His heart is yerning to save you AND Your children. Come now before it is too late. Do not put off the day of salvation to a more convenient time".

Which one are you faithful to in your calls?

We all know - only one of them "works".

In Christ,

Bob

 

You are sidestepping the point. I am asking which one you use "in real life". I would like to know if I have finally met a Calvinist that would use Calvinism in an evangelistic appeal.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You're not hitting the issue. The issue is not what Baptists have or have not believed. The issue is that if you agree that people must be spiritually or morally forced in their regeneration before they can accept God, then your #2 is incorrect. God DOES force people to become things that they do not want to become. That is the issue that you must deal with.

 

Does God force new born babies to breath or is it part of their nature? The same answer applies to spiritual new birth.

A baby is not forced to breath but it isn't a choice either. It is a result of natural impulse. Repentance/faith/belief in Christ are not forced upon us but neither are they an act of independent free will.

 

Sure there is.

Ephes. 2:4-5 (ESV)
[4]But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved—

Who makes us alive from death - it is God!

Who makes us alive from death - it is God!!

Who makes us alive from death - it is GOD!!!

Can you hear me now?

Praise be unto God for salvation through the finished work of Christ Jesus. \o/ </font>[/QUOTE]It still requires the individual's approval or agreement or permission! God does not save the unwilling! Are you listening? </font>[/QUOTE]Dead means dead, how can someone who is DEAD be willing to do anything?

Enda

 

Paul seemed to think that it was important to persuade people. Go figure. I know, you will say it is God's means of bringing the elect to Him. I would agree to an extent. But to say God gives the want to and everything else makes a mockery at all the choices we are proposed with throughout Scripture. Why are we offered choices if there is really no choice? God must have needed filler for the Bible.

Neal

 

Ah! We're getting closer! The convicting and drawing of the Holy Spirit does indeed occur! This is what the Arminians have been saying all along.

Blackaby said it himself. They had to convince their son of what he needed - a blue bicycle instead of a motorcycle. In the end, the child still had a choice of whether he wanted the bicycle or not. In your way of thinking, Dad would have had to force his child's will to saying, "Sure, dad! I'll take it." There is no convincing going on - merely a change of will.

Calvinism isn't about God convincing a man to accept Him. Calvinism is about GOd making a man's will change, so he will then accept him. There is no convincing. There is only forcing. It's more than a semantic issue.

 

Scott, you make a great point here.

This issue is also seen in Acts as it speaks of the disciples "persuading" men to follow Christ. There is no need for persuasion in the Calvinistic system, either you have been effectually called or not. Why didn't Paul just walk up and say, "Jesus died on the cross for the elect if you believe this follow us????" Why, did he go the the trouble of "becoming all things to all men so that he might win just one???" Or why did the apostles and Christ use miraclous signs and wonders? This couldn't have been to persuade men of their authority if Calvinism was correct because the elect would have known because of the effectual calling.

It just doesn't add up.

 

Now that is interesting! Are you saying that it is possible for man to be convinced that Jesus is the Messiah, even in his depraved state? That is what it sounds like.

The standard Calvinist position (and if someone else wishes to step in, please do) is that it is not a matter of convincing. God gives man a new will. This is the Calvinist model of regeneration. Man does not choose to have this new will; God gives it to him.

Are you saying that you would agree with your statement or the Calvinist statement?

 

Sort of, but not really. Our will simply consists of the choices we make. And what we choose (our will) is changed by the convincing of God. Our choice (or our will) is influenced by God--we choose something different (like the child with bicycle) because of the inner, intangible work of the Spirit, drawing and convincing.

Many of us call that convincing by the Spirit regeneration because we see it as the starting point of a new life. The man being convinced by the Spirit is a different man than the one who is not being convinced.

As I see it, this statement

is a nonsense statement. It's like saying "man does not choose to make a different choice".

Our will (or what we choose) is changed because what we want is changed by the convincing of the Spirit. Just like the kid and the bicycle.

BTW, are you sure you want to use the word "compel" for how you see the Spirit working?

 

The one that jumps off the top of my head is God's offer of salvation as a choice of believeing or not believing in His Son (John 3:18).

Neal

 

25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, `MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, `BELOVED.' "

God's people rejected Him for the most part so I'm not sure what you are refering to here Hardsheller. If we made a list of all the times God's people are called on to make a choice we will be listing a bunch of verses from the OT in regard to the Israelites, who were "HIS PEOPLE." These people, for the most part, chose not to follow Him. Therefore God was presenting a choice to people who really never became "HIS PEOPLE" because they never believed and followed Him. Your list theory just went out the door.