5 Things This Calvinist Believes

Russell55 your "link" does not show up as a link. Pastor Larry posted nothing in the current conversation, but in a different conversation. of a closely related topic. I guess what I'm saying is you guidance is not very clear.

 

Russell55 your "link" does not show up as a link. Pastor Larry posted nothing in the current conversation, but in a different conversation. of a closely related topic. I guess what I'm saying is you guidance is not very clear. </font>[/QUOTE]Click on the words "this conversation." It is a link to a thread that I started that I wish people would adhere to.

 

Oops...I see how my instructions could be confusing. Do what Pastor Larry says....

 

Thank you Rebecca. I found his statements on the various kinds of Calvinists and also the list of statements that hint at the inconsistencies in Calvinism that I tend to bring into sharp focus in my comments above.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The point is that doctrines specifically addressing the point of Evangelism - God loving all, drawing all, calling all, dying for all, the need to decide now vs waiting until later etc - ARE very much the focus in evangelism and the very thing denied by Calvinism (assuming 5 point Calvinism or at least limited atonement).

The argument that on those VERY points - we should be "vague about what we really believe" or as in the case of Calvinism - hide the most direct statements on those VERY points that are taught in our system of theology - is very very curious.

And my point above was that the Arminian position "on those very points" is much more in harmony with what "works in evangelism" in fact it is what "you hear in evangelism EVEN from Calvinists who are doing it".

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However the Very Point of the Gospel message on God's Willingness to save all
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Indeed Calvinist evangelists do NOT say "God is NOT willing to save all of you -- Only those ones of you that He causes to believe - truly believe at some point in your lives".

Though - as you say - that is exactly what the Calvinist evangelist "believes to be true".

However in the meeting "he must say" the following "God is calling out to each person here tonight to come to the foot of the cross and turn your life over to Christ. Nothing would please God more than to have everyone in this place respond to the call of the Holy Spirit today - and give your heart today to the Lord Jesus Christ who died for your sins and is knocking at the door of your heart. Do not put this off until another day. Do not be "almost persuaded". "

We both know they do this - and then when we later get into Calvinist vs Arminian discussions - we both know how that point "turns" from what was said during evangelism.


quote:Bob
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But this IS the point of evangelism - that God Does love the World and Does draw all mankind and Does call you to repentance and Does want both you and your family and friends to come to repentance etc etc. These Very Points that Calvinism so rejects - is the Very Point of Evangelism.
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Are you saying that God calls those whome he has not died to save - hoping they will not respond - because if they do - He must die again?

Are you saying that God calls them knowing that they CAN not respond - but He wants to point out that fallen depraved humanity - weakened by the fall of mankind is helpless and mocking them in that state is somehow "pleasing" to Calvinism?

Are you saying that the Calvinist Evangelist TELLS them that "God is calling you but He knows full well that the MANY of MAtt 7 here tonight CAN NOT respond and so He did NOT die for you - knowing full well that He was not about to enable you to respond to the Gospel call"?

quote:Bob
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The argument that "we don't happen to expose what Calvinism says on these points since it doesn't work in Evangelism"
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As repeatedly noted in this dialogue - when the point is made that the "means of evangelism" is to hide (fail to point out)the Specifics in Calvinism regarding the Evangelistic call of God and the innability of the "MANY" of Matt 7 to even respond to it - to fail to point out what Calvinism REALLY thinks is going on during Evangelism - this "use of Arminian style appeals" by the Calvinist "As the means" of evangelism - does not escape the notice of the Arminian Christians.

But when the brass tacks or "wrong" by Calvinism's standards - it makes you wonder.

Calvinism goes on to deny the very essence of the "appeal" that they give.

"God is calling each one of you. Christ loves you and died to save you. Christ died not only for your sins but for your brothers, your sons, your daughters. He loves you and so we beg you tonight on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God"

They do NOT say "God might love you - but only if you are one of the FEW of Matt 7. God might also love your family members and friends IF they happen to have been selected as among those FEW.

Although I urge you not to be confused on this point by the Evangelistic message tonight. Nothing you or I do tonight makes any difference at all as to whether you will be saved today -
Nothing matters about how we act today or what we may choose today - because it is all of God's election, selecting out from among this group those whom He has already decided should be saved today".

quote:Bob
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is combined with "in fact we make the evangelistic appeals of the Arminian pastors"
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Making those Arminian appeals - and then arguing later with Arminians - that those appeals are doctrinally incorrect - is "my point".

One group says "anyone who is able to come foreward and endure to the end - was already saved and forgiven BEFORE coming forward, before giving themselves to Christ, BEFORE choosing to answer the Gospel call".

The other group - does not teach that at all.

The Arminian group says "Do not delay - do not put this off. Choose Christ tonight and receive forgiveness of sins, the new birth, peace with God. God longs to be in fellowship with you tonight but you must choose to come forward - do not delay".

quote:Bob
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How hard it would be for the Arminians on this board to be "forced to use Calvinist appeals in evangelism since those are the only ones that actually work". And yet this is precisely the lot of our Calvinist bretheren. And on top of that - "we notice it" so they have to somehow turn that back and get "Arminiansm to be ok in Calvinism".

I could not imagine a more difficult task. Fortunately the Arminian Evangelist does not have that problem.
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I "assure" you that IF the Arminian was forced to preach "God has ONLY selected the FEW from among you today - the FEW of MAtt 7. Nothing we choose here today will matter at all in whether you are saved or lost. There is no words I can speak, no decision you can make today that truly matters - because it is ALL of God and NONE of what you or I do today" - how "stressed" we would be.

And THEN if our posts on this board had to be to deny the heart of our own evangelistic (Calvinist) appeals - how "wide open" our eyes would be as to the "problem" with Arminianism.

I am showing "with specific details" the point in black and white. As much as you may wish that it were not so obvious - I am certain that the "obvious remains".

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:Bob
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How hard it would be for the Arminians on this board to be "forced to use Calvinist appeals in evangelism since those are the only ones that actually work". And yet this is precisely the lot of our Calvinist bretheren. And on top of that - "we notice it" so they have to somehow turn that back and get "Arminiansm to be ok in Calvinism".

I could not imagine a more difficult task. Fortunately the Arminian Evangelist does not have that problem.
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Rebecca said -
This is a problem in your own mind only

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In fact - IF the Arminian had to make the Calvinist statement "God CALLS ALL of you to salvation today - but in fact He only loves the FEW of MATT 7 - while the rest are not loved by God, nor did He die for your sins - He simply calls you to prove that you can not respond" - how horrible it would be to BE Arminian and then be forced to make Calvinist-doctrinal appeals since "that is the only thing that works".

How difficult to have to be a Calvinist and argue that "hiding the fact that God did not actually love them all - nor die for them all - was a point I had to keep from the crowd AS IF they would consider it an irrelevant bit of trivia not worthy of mention when saying "God calls ALL of you here today to come to the foot of the cross and be saved".

IN Christ,

Bob

 

No man comes to Jesus unless God first calls him... I wonder why people don't get this?

 

God calls the world to come through the gospel brought to us by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....I wonder why people don't get this?

 

John 5:21
For as the father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Christ is the Life Giver.

mike

 

Mike, I don't believe there is anyone here who disagrees that Christ is the giver of life.

The question is who does Christ decide to give life to?

Let's look at the text again shall we (I've placed in bold the words you should read carefully):

21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Christ wills to give life to those who believe.

 

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

When a person hears from God and believes on Christ this is a work of God not man.

The problem is you want man to have a working part in his new birth. And I give God all the praise for mine. Because I could not save myself; but your doctrine teaches that you can.

mike

 

Come on, now. I don't think anyone here is crediting the work of salvation to themselves. It is conditioned on our belief. But the work of salvation itself is wholly the work of God. Praise be to Him!

Neal

 

That's just it, nothing MAKES someone believe. They must choose to believe. What makes you believe that George Washington was our first president? Nothing MAKES you believe it, you choose to believe based upon the information given to you. The gospel is powerful and inspired truth of who Christ is, you must choose whether you believe it or not, nothing makes you do that.

 

Pastor,

What I am saying is that the gospel is powerful enough to persuade even the most wayward heart, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it does so irresistably as Calvinism implies. People resist the Holy Spirit all the time as we see in Acts 7:51. You would like to think that the Holy Spirit not only inspires the words of the Gospel but also secretly accompanies the gospels preaching and irresistably works in the hearts of the elect ones. That is not in the text. The work of the Spirit is in the bringing us the words of truth. The power is in the words themselves, not because we say them, but because they are inspired by the Father. Your system teaches that the words are not enough, but that the words must be accompanied by an inward, secret and selective working of the Spirit that cannot be resisted. That concept has been created by Calvinists to reconcile the fact that the general call of God does not save all souls, but it is not biblical.

The truth that GW was our first president doesn not carry the same power, I agree, I was just using this as an example. But the two messages have something in common...they are true. Truth is powerful, especially truth inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The power is in the Word not in some secret irresistable calling never expounded upon in the scripture!

BTW, I'm on my way out the door for a camp. I'll be back next weekend. Yall have fun.

 

Then you misread or mis-hear the doctrine or do not understand what believing means in the human.

The doctrine says, "that those who hear and believe". Let's say it a slightly different way that in no way changes the meaning. Those who read the bible and "learn" the doctrine and believe the doctrine to be true, that is, accepting for themselves the validity of what was read, shall have eternal life.

Now I don't know about you, but when I "heard" the word, I was doing no work, expending no effort or energy to hear other than "receiving" in my mind the thoughts or concepts of the word. That is not work, our humanity does that as a result of being made in the image of God. But hearing the word is not in itself all there is, our mind must analyze the word and determine for itself the validity of the word. That is done when a concept or idea is compared to everything that our mind has previously stored for recall, evaluation, and reasoning.

Now, with the word heard, and evaluated, our spirit must reason out that word and either arrive at a conclusion or simply delay a conclusion to another time in which the information received is once again brought forth for evaluation and reasoning.

At some point, during an evaluation, our spirit will arrive at a conclusion as to what to do with the information that is presented to it. If our spirit accepts, that is, "validates" the information, that is when believing takes place, because what was just "random information" now becomes a building block because it is believed by our spirit to be valuable.

NONE of this process is a work. Nothing has been produced, no effort expended. THUS, believing is not a work of man! So man cannot work to achieve salvation, but man can certainly believe the word and thereby be "marked" by that word as a believer. Only when one believes in something, will one openly do works in accordance with that belief. Such works are works OF faith, and not works UNTO faith.

 

Hardsheller,

God created man to have the functional capacity to believe, he does not go around to each person at some point in their life and say I want you to believe today so here let me wave my magic wand and you will believe henceforth. Instead, He lets his Word speak to us and we by hearing the Word of God, perhaps over a great period of our lives or perhaps on first hearing, evaluate, and reason what the Word says to us and we either come to a conclusion or we delay making a decision to believe. Believing is the transformation of random thought into solid persuasion.

George Washington was our first President. I have just stated a thought, now it is up to you to reject the thought as invalid, or to transform that though into persuasion, or simply to put off doing so until some later time, perhaps when you "see" some "convincing evidence" that the thought that I stated is true or false. You will then transform the thought into persuasion or rejection of the thought.

That same thing occurs in man when someone says in your hearing, or you read, that "Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah". Upon first hearing, you either accept that thought as truth, or you postpone any conclusion until you have more evidence or factors upon which to decide. Either way, the thought is in your mind and at some point that thought will be used by your mind to draw a conclusion. That is the process of evaluation and reasoning. Once the thought is "validated" in your mind, you become persuaded that it is true or not true, and then you live according to your persuasion.

EVERY MAN has the ability to hear the word and decide for themselves. That is simply the way God made us! And No, God does not force us to believe in His son or in Himself. He uses gentle persuasion by presenting to us information about His Son and about Him. We must evaluate and we must decide.

 

Let me say:

AMEN and AMEN.

Bro. Dallas Eaton