50 Most Influential Churches

John, don't underestimate the power of God. Is he so boring that there HAS to be something entertaining to bring in thousands to a service?

I grew up in a church that preached about hell, heaven, the grace of God, the sins we should avoid, salvation, seeking the will of God...etc. The church was large because people WANTED to get involved...to serve the Lord...to bring others to him.

I built a bus route at the age of 15 to the point where the route had to be split. I didn't offer these kids anything but songs on the bus all the way to and from church, and a piece of candy when they got off (I'm sure it wasn't the candy). The kids were taught the Word of God in Jr. Church and church...I know because I went to those classes until I was old enough to teach them.

I think the bus routes had a large part in the church growth, but I hate saying that I wouldn't want to send my kids on a strange bus today. I wasn't scary back then, which is why I think my bus route was successful. I was a caring, loving teenage girl who could be trusted. Today, you don't know who to trust...especially since it's come out about the preists molesting kids and baptists on killing spree. They're all lumped into the religious group who can't be trusted.

We have to work harder at showing the world that not all Christians are wolves in sheep clothing. We can only do this when we act like Christians...don't steal pens from work...don't come in late and punch your card for the pay...don't borrow and then not return...don't bash the boss...don't gripe and complain over the extra work...the little sins that we think may be harmless could be enough for others to see as sin, asking "what's the difference between us, really?"

But if a church is successful in bringing in the people, don't knock them until you've visited their service. There ARE some people who go to church to glorify God, and if you disagree with me, then I have to ask why you go to church.

 

By the way, don't ask what the name of my church was. After the pastor resigned, they went very liberal and many people left. I'd be afraid to walk in there today. I want to remember them the way they were when I was going.

 

I think we get too caught up in evaluating the value of a worship service based on what we "get out of it" rather than on considering what God received from us as a result of our worship. In our culture, and particularly in our church culture, that's the way we are trained. When I look at these mega churches, the very idea that someone has taken a survey to rate their "influence" is contrary to the concept of church as Jesus established it. I've been in several congregations in recent years that have made changes in their "style" of worship based on the preferences of the congregation, and never asked the question about whether what they were doing was leading people to an encounter with the Lord.

I'm sure there are people in almost every church who are mature enough to understand that whether worship occurs or not is up to them, but I don't think churches in this country, by and large, are teaching their members to worship, especially when I hear people evaluate it on a purely entertainment basis.

 

When we get to Heaven we will be suprised at the churchws that God said did the most for His kingdom. They might be small rural churches or struggling city churches but I think we will just say wow!!!!!!

 

You might be a redneck preacher if you've ever kissed a pig or preached from the roof after high attendance Sunday.

No wonder you're not on the top 50 list!

[ July 21, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Hardsheller ]

 

Quote from Rick Warren:

"I'm in the life change business. I'm in the transformation business. You know what motivates me? – not size; in fact, I don't even like big churches. I mean, my favorite size was 300 people. What motivates me is that I am addicted to changing lives. I love seeing lives changed and that is the untold story. Everybody tries to attribute the growth of churches to everything else but what makes them grow – and it's changed lives."

 

Does anyone not see the problem here? This is SCARY stuff. This statement alone is not really proof of anything but it is entirely consistent and in character with Warren and his man-made purpose machine.

I thought it was God that saved sinners, that salvation was from above! I thought only Jesus could save, only the Holy Spirit could regenerate. And that Rick Warren should be in the preaching the Word business. And the maturity of the saints business. Or is salvation what he really means by 'change' and 'transformation' in this particular statement? With Rick Warren you can never be sure.

The sad thing is people's lives ARE being changed. But changed to what??? And they ARE allowing their lives to be transformed. But transformed to what???

Quibbling with semantics, you say? It's a fair question but not a necessary one for those who have gotten to know Rick Warren by watching him and testing his teachings with the Sword of the Spirit. This guy is SMOOTHE, very bright, and he's done his homework. But I don't want him changing or transforming my life with his methods. Or anyone's life, for that matter. I trust only Jesus to do that.

Rick Warren is only part of a much larger movement with its own designs. But thank God Jesus saves whom He will, all that truly come to Him. And He can and does save in spite of Rick Warren and others. I rejoice and praise Him for that.

But just in case anyone hasn't noticed yet, it's time to round up the flock around you, check for and nourish their wounds, and deploy a full time watch. The wolves are hungry indeed and they have encircled the camp.

 

AMEN BROTHER! AMEN!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Right on, Iveyleaguer.

 

That's just sad

 

Does anyone not see the problem HERE? This is scary stuff.

Of course God alone changes lives. Give me a break. Do you honestly think for one second that RW believes he is the one who actually does the changing? Of course not.

The purpose statement of our church speaks of transforming people into followers of Jesus Christ. Does that mean I believe I am the one who does the transforming? Of course not.

Give the guy a break. He talks of being addicted to seeing people's lives changed and people criticize him for that.

One thing you learn quicly in the land of fundamentalism is that enough is never enough for the fundy.

 

Oh and I forgot to mention: I AM ALSO IN THE LIFE CHANGING BUSINESS!!!

And I pray to God that you are too!!!

 

That's what I'm talking about. This Sunday I will baptize 2 men, one that I led to the Lord over a cup of coffee and one that accepted Christ after I preached a sermon that I prepared at the church that I pastor.

That's a lot of "I"s, but you should also know that I give every bit of the credit and every once of the glory to Jesus Christ. And I'm sure that RW would say the same thing.

You guys really gotta lighten up. Don't have a Bible in front of me, but there is a verse in Ecclesiastes that basically says (forgive the guitarpreacher paraphrase) "Don't be so good that you ruin your life"

 

I must agree with guitar preacher and AAG on this one. (Hard for me to do that AAG) but I've had a change of heart since last night. I read the reply R.Abanes gave to alot of the junk that was said about him. (Which I was one) I have since then repented of my "gossip" and sent the man a private e-mail as well as a public apology on this board.
RW is not a heretic. I don't believe he is intertwined with New Age gurus etc.... I've read alot of stuff that would not exactly be my thing concerning how he does some things. Yet, I've also read alot of stuff about RW lately that says to me he is a pretty solid guy. He may be a little to much of a feel good kind of preacher for myself but at his core he believes in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and its power to change lives.
IT is a fact that at Saddleback they do teach people systematic theology if they choose to go through the courses. If we were all made of the same stuff as christians there would be alot of people that would never be reached.
I'm not a super fan of everything in PDL but the basic principles in the book are biblical you can't argue that. He lays the book out in a way that laypeople get it. The church has struggled for years to get people out of the pews and involved in service. This book helps people do that. It gives them a template as to how to do it.

I think it is a good book for new christians or apathetic christians. Yes it is kind of shallow if your looking at it from a minister's point of view. That is because it is stuff that any minister should already know and be involved in themselves.

Does the book use some questionalble translations? Yes.
Does it have weakenesses? Yes , what book doesn't?

Is it sprinkled with New age terminology? Maybe in some ways but I don't think RW did it covertly and on purpose in order to decieve people that just isn't true.

I'm nobody special, just a missionary on deputation to Spain. I just got convicted about railing like a moron about some other guy's ministry. I'm responsible for the race I'm running not the guy beside me.
The truth of the matter is RW is not a false teacher or heretic. He is a brother in Christ.
If you think his ministry is going in the wrong direction then do what the Bible says and intercede for the man on your knees. I find that its impossible to be in prayer for someone and be critical of them at the same time.

Only God knows and only time will reveal how RW and his PD philosophy will effect the church.
Right now I just want to be concerned how I affect the church.

BTW, AAG, "Fundy" is not necessarily a term of endearment or positive. now is it? Maybe you could refer to people who come from those circles with something a little bit nicer. Regardless of what they call you.

 

Wow ShannonL. I have to give you your props.
I appreciate your previous post and what you had to say to Abanes on the other thread.

I think you said in many words my basic philosophy regarding other evangelicals: we are on the same team ... I will probably not agree with anyone 100% ... but I can learn from anyone (even fundies -- which I don't mean in a derogatory sense -- just a term -- after all, I used to be one -- and still am by some definitions).

 

Amen, Preach it!!!

I think the saddest thing is not the list of top 50 churches, but the fact that the first thing people do is look for the opportinuty to criticize the top 50 churches. I guarantee, there is not a church, large or small, that isn't worthy of criticism. But the simple fact is that we don't like what's not like us, and most of the 50 churches on the list are likely not like us. I think our overall attitude says much more about us than it does the 50 churches on the list.

 

Well said, Shannon.

 

Right on,
I think many IFB's actually are looking for ways to get into the "Church Shrink" movement, since it seems the martyr mentality is used many times to determine the validity of ones position. The contrapositive of a bad thing is not always a good thing. Its all about balance.

 

Brethren...and sistern...lol....we are quickly coming to a day in this increasingly dark world we live in that the Big,small,denominational churches that are true to the Word of God will go by the wayside due to ungodly laws and rulings handed down from ungodly servants of satan in government and an increasingly godless and secular world system.I personally feel that for the "church" of the Lord Jesus Christ to continue to exist(and it will),it will have to do so in much smaller more private and secret groups of believers that will be forced back into house type churches and groups of believers meeting in secret to fellowship.This is already occurring in places like Iran,China,India,Vietnam,and other places where either the government is openly hostile to Christianity or is given over to Islam or Hinduism or other false religions.In that day,lists such as the one shown in the OP will mean absolutely NOTHING.The truth is...lists like that one mean NOTHING now!Even BAD churches teaching FALSE DOCTRINES have "influence".However...it will mean that the true church will probably more closely resemble the early New Testament church in faith and practise.That may not be a bad thing in all ways.The early church had the power of God and GREAT influence in its day.

Greg Sr.

 

As Seinfeld once said, "Shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere?"

Just kidding.