50 Passage Challenge

[BobRyan]

Clarification/Definitions:

Matt 7 “Few” vs “Many” applies to all mankind – showing that at the end of time it is the MANY that are lost – by comparison in number to the FEW. This is an accurate trustworthy statement of relative comparison between the SIZE of the groups.

Unconditional election. Part-A. There is “no level “ at which something about YOU is “special” and so God must select “you” as opposed to your neighbor. Nothing about “you” recommends “you” for selection as one of the “elect”. No family relationship, no social position, no hidden “ability”. Nothing “makes you special” such that “you” should be selected. God will not select you because He “sees you have some ability that nobody else has or some capability others don’t have”. Rather you are totally depraved and lost – with nothing to recommend you to God. Nothing you choose, or do can change that.

66 Books - God’s Word – is infallible – and contains 66 books and is literally true. Profitable for doctrine, correction, instruction that the man of God may be adequately equipped.

Exegesis is the proper way to determine the meaning of a Bible text.

One Gospel: Gal 1:6-11 there is only “ONE Gospel” in all ages. The Gospel is the good news of salvation. The Plan of Salvation. (Jesus Christ). There is no “other way”.

Thy Word is Truth (John 17:17) Titus 1:2 God never “lies”.

Limited atonement: Refers to the sufferings of Christ. It states that Christ did NOT suffer as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE world. But knowing whom He would elect – He also chose to suffer and die just for those whom He chose to elect.

The term for the sake of this discussion is specifically Christ as the “atoning Sacrifice” 1John 2:2 in the model we find in Lev 16.

Atonement: God is not “paid” in the sufferings of God on the cross. Nor does God “pay satan”. There is a “Sin/Suffering” economy such that x-sin requires x-suffering in the 2nd death. Christ suffered the accumulated suffering “owed” by whatever group He chose to die for. However the Lev 16 model of Atonement extends beyond the point of sacrifice, beyond the "atoning sacrifice" made.

Both Arminian and Calvinist groups agree that the benefit of the Atonement portrayed in Lev 16 - "glorification" is only experienced by the "FEW" of Matt 7.

Trinity: One God – Three Persons. Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

[ July 12, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[T.U.L.I.P.]

To clarify my Calvinist position I go even farther than 5 points to a position that I now have that has 6 points although I will be constantly re-forming it throughout my life and I will probably get a few more points in there before I go Home. I believe that the people who formulated the first set of points didn't choose the best words in a compromize to fit the word "TULIP" although I'm perfectly fine with that position-here are my modified(and additional) points:


1. Absolute Predestination

2. Total Depravity

3. Unconditional Election/Reprobation

4. Particular Redemption

5. Unobstructable Grace

6. Preservation of the Saints

As far as the wording of my 6th point I think it focuses more on God doing the Preserving than Man doing the Perseverance although technically both are correct.

Also, I thought I made myself clear when I said a one sentence commentary after each passage.

After someone finally decided to post their list of scripture passages(take 20 posts if you wish) and I post mine, we can all discuss our usage of scripture and/or debate but at least we'll start with a large amount of scripture "proving" each position.

Allow me to make a point once again-The essence of this topic is presenting a large quantity of Scripture that you base your doctrine on:the goal here is to learn, not to "win" because you knew the "rules" better than the other person I also think that by keeping this in mind there is no "metric" by which we are going to judge who is "more biblical" than the other-people reading this forum will be able to determine for themselves which is in fact the correct application.

Once again; brief, one sentence commentary-the point here is to let Scripture speak for itself so the less said the better

 

[T.U.L.I.P.]

a few opening comments and a brief summary would also be nice but I believe that you've already made your opening statements, BobRyan, as well as given us your summary; all we're waiting for is some Bible.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by T.U.L.I.P.:
Why do we have to resort to these kinds of statements in a Biblical discussion?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You must be new here. Bob Ryan will take care of the whole debate. He'll tell what all sides are "really" saying and reach a conclusion that clearly shows he is right and that is DEVASTATING to his opponents.

He's a hoot to read!

Yes, I'm new here. I understand what you're saying and that is precisely why I want to discuss Bible-I don't want to debate as it never gets anywhere but to show me where I need to work on my Bible study and at the moment I want to discuss scriptural support for the Arminian position-it's so rare that you hear any these days....just emotion and philosophy.

 

[deadmen.org]

discuss scriptural support for the Arminian position-it's so rare that you hear any these days....just emotion and philosophy.

Amen to that

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by deadmen.org:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />discuss scriptural support for the Arminian position-it's so rare that you hear any these days....just emotion and philosophy.

Amen to that </font>[/QUOTE]Since you have already rejected the keystone scripture upon which All man are called to belief in the Christ unto eternal life, would there be any value in posting the rest?

Suffice it to say that ALL men are called to belief in Jesus because the invitation is to whosoever believeth in Him, even on his name shall be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

TULIP
As far as the wording of my 6th point I think it focuses more on God doing the Preserving than Man doing the Perseverance although technically both are correct.

The typical 5pt view is that if you fail to persevere 10 years from now - you were never saved to start with.

The typical 4pt view emphasizes preserveration - by arguing that EVEN if you fail to persevere 10 years from now you are STILL saved.

Which one are you arguing? I just need to know if I need to which list of texts to give - to address one of those errors vs the other.

Also - point of clarification on the "definitions".

All Humans Under total Depravity:

All mankind is lost due to the fall of Adam. All are depraved, apart from the New Birth - being saved - NONE are in a condition of being forgiven, IN fellowship with Christ, IN Christ.

Rather it is true for all mankind that the depraved mind (apart from the supernatural work of God) does not subject itself to the Word of Christ NOR Can it (Romans 8:5-9) - nor does it even understand the words of Christ for they are spiritually discerned (1Cor 2:12-15).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[deadmen.org]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by deadmen.org:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />discuss scriptural support for the Arminian position-it's so rare that you hear any these days....just emotion and philosophy.

Amen to that </font>[/QUOTE]Since you have already rejected the keystone scripture upon which All man are called to belief in the Christ unto eternal life, would there be any value in posting the rest?

Suffice it to say that ALL men are called to belief in Jesus because the invitation is to whosoever believeth in Him, even on his name shall be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]All men ARE called to believe, but few are chosen to do so. What's so difficult about this? Romans 1 says all men are without excuse simply by God's invisible attributes. The invitation IS for whosoever believeth in Him, but the only ones that will believe are those whom the Father has given to Christ. It's all throughout the Gospel of John. God chose those whom He'd save, yet those who go to hell are condemned for their rejection of Christ. Should this not just be taken by faith that we believe what the Scriptures say? BOTH are true, and God is the only one who justifies. We, as men, have free will to do one thing: sin. We are naturally inclined to do so. God, in his mercy, instead of condemning us all to hell, has chosen to save some. Glory be to His name and His justice. Our idea of justice is not His. His justice works alongside all of his other attributes: mercy, love, wrath, etc. I don't know who the elect are, nor does anyone else. I am to preach the gospel to all and whosoever will may come! Someone once asked Spurgeon, "Why don't you preach more to the elect?". Spurgeon replied somewhat like this. "Mark them for me, and I will." True, effective, evangelism is only wrought forth by the Holy Spirit of God through the reading and hearing of the Scriptures. God has created some vessels as vessels of mercy to show His goodness, and others he created as vessels of wrath to show His justice. It may not be palatable, but it is biblical and it's holy in accordance with God's holiness and perfection. His word will NOT return unto Him void. What comfort there is in knowing that nothing is beyond His grasp, especially our sinful selves.

 

[T.U.L.I.P.]

The typical 5pt view is that if you fail to persevere 10 years from now - you were never saved to start with.

This is not accurate-the view that I'm familiar with is that the saints will persevere in the end.

I think that instead of focusing on correcting the position of others you should worry about supporting your own position with Scripture-that's what this is all about.

 

[deadmen.org]

The typical 5pt view is that if you fail to persevere 10 years from now - you were never saved to start with.

That's the typical BIBLICAL view and here's why: If anyone would be my disciple he MUST deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. If someone lives in a habitual lifestyle of sin and never bears fruit, though they prayed the sinner's prayer, then they're not saved. If it were true that they were saved, then God's power if not very powerful. Biblically, though, God's power is all-powerful. It does bring change in a person's life. It doesn't mean they'll never sin, even heinously. It simply means that they will not live a life void of good, godly, fruit. Christians were predestined to be conformed to the likeness of the Son. If someone's not progessively doing so, then it's not saving faith. "Can such a faith save him?" as James might put it. Even the demons believe. So they have faith, but we know it's not SAVING faith. God's powerful word never neglects to produce godly change. His Word accomplishes exactly what it intends to accomplish. Justification is instand and settled. Positional sanctification is as well. Progressive sanctification is not an option, but a result of justification.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:Bob observes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The typical 5pt view is that if you fail to persevere 10 years from now - you were never saved to start with.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TULIP
This is not accurate-the view that I'm familiar with is that the saints will persevere in the end.

I think that instead of focusing on correcting the position of others you should worry about supporting your own position with Scripture-that's what this is all about.

You are either denying the statement or obfuscating it - and since I can't tell which.....

Deadmen.org has posted what I view as the same thing that I am asking about. Can you at least admit that you hold to what he has said - or else state that is is something else?

As you may know, the 4-pt view is that you are saved whether you persevere or not - I am just double checking to see if that is your view.

I am going to assume you do not agree with that view (for now - since you are not specific yet) and that you are in fact trying to state something like what deadman.org just stated.

If not, just let me know.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In an effort to move this along - I am posting reference #1 of the 50. Please count this as One reference out of 50.

(I am asking that this only be counted as one reference - since to do otherwise would severely restrict the number of posts available for the Arminian view.)

John 1 - points to the Global - world wide nature of the Gospel scope - Where God is actively working to reach and save all the World.


John 1:4-13

4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of mankind. (unqualified)

Global context: "The Light OF mankind" (unqualified.). No limit to God’s scope of effort.
"Light shines in DARKNESS" -

5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

(the entire world is said to be in darkness not just the jews.
"so that ALL might believe through Him"

6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

( Unqualified - the message of John in the Gospels has gone to all the WORLD.

8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

The same World that was MADE by Him.

Every man – everyone of mankind. Unqualified – denial of limited concern of God for mankind. The scope of the Gospel solution reaches out with light to Every one of mankind.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

The same context – the entire world was MADE by Him – the entire world did not know Him – He came to the World and enlightens Every one of mankind in that World.

11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.

Those He sovereignly selected – chose, are those who rejected Him and His specific outreach to them.

12 But as many as received Him,

(Man's part)
to them He gave the right to become children of God

(God's part)
, even to those who believe in His name,

(Man's part)

13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
(God's Part)

God's part: Sending His Son as LIGHT into the WORLD - the SAME WORLD that was MADE through Him - (GLOBAL unqualified non-restrictive context.)

Not only into the WORLD but also to HIS OWN (those HE CHOSE for HIMSELF) -

Man's part - history (those CHOSEN as "His OWN" FAILED - they DID NOT RECEIVE HIM).

standing offer - BUT To as many as RECEIVED Him [/b] (MAN's part)
(by contrast to HIS CHOSEN "OWN" - who did NOT receive Him)

TO THEM He GAVE the right to BECOME children of God. (God's Part)

The Arminian principle of
-God FIRST acting to supernaturally BRING salvation to ALL,
- then calling for man to RESPOND and RECEIVE,
- THEN SUBSEQUENTLY
providing that those who ACT and RECEIVE - shall THEN have the RIGHT to BECOME children of God FOLLOWING THEIR act of RECEIVING.


John 1:
22 Then they said to him, ""Who are you, so that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?''
23 He said, ""I am A VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, "MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD,' (Is 40:3) as Isaiah the prophet said.''

John the baptizer's reference is to the GLOBAL evangelistic role God stated for Himself in Isaiah chapter 40 - in vs 5 we find it's scope

Is 40:5 "ALL FLESH shall see it together" . The context is GLOBAL outreach, WORLD evangelism "ALL FLESH" unqualified.

24 Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.
25 They asked him, and said to him, ""Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?''


Interesting that the Jews EXPECTED the Christ (the Messiah) to come baptizing.


26 John answered them saying, "" I baptize in water, but among you stands One whom you do not know.
27 ""It is He who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.''
28 These things took place in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, ""Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD!

John the baptizer's public ministry was a declaration of the global scope of the Messiah.

NOT telling the Jews that the Messiah was coming to solve the sin problems of the CHOSEN Jewish nation - but of the WORLD. The WORLD He had "made".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Post number TWO of 50

Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

All of Calvnism’s favorite words to redefine – are here. WORLD, ALL MEN etc. And who can argue that ALL have sinned (not just the “elect”)?? Who can argue that WORLD really does Not mean the Whole World has fallen under the domain of sin – for All have sinned. God appears to be using very “arminian” terms here – once again.


15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

The Same all-encompassing Many that were lost because of the one fall of the one man Adam are benefited by the One man Christ!!!


16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Now we see again that the same ALL that were condemned by Adam’s fall – are in the scope of the benefit of Christ’s gift.

18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Again - all men - same author, same subject, same reference as we see in vs 12 nailed down here again. All men condemned by Adam's fall - and all men benefited by the one act of Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Post #3 of 50 - classic "Example" of the Arminian model of Evangelism - appealing to choice, free will, choosing to believe, compelling evidence that "motivates" the deciding-mind to "choose".

In the first 14 verses we see compelling evidence used to motivate choice – motivate a decision for Christ. This is the Arminian model of an appeal to the free will rather than simply “zapping the group” to believe as God dictates.

John 6
1 After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee (or Tiberias).
2 A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick.
3 Then Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat down with His disciples.
4 Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was near.
5 Therefore Jesus, lifting up His eyes and seeing that a large crowd was coming to Him, said to Philip, ""Where are we to buy bread, so that these may eat?''
6 This He was saying to test him, for He Himself knew what He was intending to do.
7 Philip answered Him, "" Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, for everyone to receive a little.''
8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
9 ""There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two fish, but what are these for so many people?''
10 Jesus said, ""Have the people sit down.'' Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11 Jesus then took the loaves, and having given thanks, He distributed to those who were seated; likewise also of the fish as much as they wanted.
12 When they were filled, He said to His disciples, ""Gather up the leftover fragments so that nothing will be lost.''
13 So they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with fragments from the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had eaten.
14 Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, ""This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.''

No one has been "dragged" or "Forced" by the means of Christ in the chapter. The test is freely offerred and the disciples comply. The multitude considers
the evidence and is compelled/motivated - NOT by having their brains pithed like lab rats - but by having evidence offerred, and drawing obvious conclusions.

We see Christ using persuasion, motivation, argument - INSTEAD of force.

So who DOES use FORCE - to try to get their way - regardless of the Will of the responder? - (According to THIS chapter)?


15 So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.


Yet this is the very accusation calvinism would make against God. That God would take the lost and "zap them" into doing as He pleases.

So far - in this chapter - that is not Christ's method – only those outside of His will (those choosing self over Christ) use force in this chapter.

16 Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea,
17 and after getting into a boat, they started to cross the sea to Capernaum. It had already become dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them.
18 The sea began to be stirred up because a strong wind was blowing.
19 Then, when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat; and they were frightened.
20 But He said to them, ""It is I; do not be afraid.''
21 So they were willing to receive Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going.
22 The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone.
23 There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
24 So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus.
25 When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, "" Rabbi, when did You get here?''
26 Jesus answered them and said, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.
27 ""Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.''

Again Christ instructs, persuades and argues for the right course of action - but does not force/drag or pith-the-brains of his listeners.
NOR does He say "you have no choice but to work for the food which perishes until I pith your tiny brain and make you do what I want".
NOR does He say “I really don’t care about you – so I have not Made you believe Me”. Rather He continues to motivate via compelling and persuasive argument – not pithing the brain or declaring “I really don’t care about those that are in error on this point, which is why you are left in error”.

28 Therefore they said to Him, ""What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?''
29 Jesus answered and said to them, ""This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.''
30 So they said to Him, "" What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?

This is interesting - the listeners SEE that Christ is compelling/persuading by evidence/proof/signs. Calling for conclusions based on evidence - not force. And so
they ask for MORE signs - even though they have already confessed that the feeding of the multitude was a great compelling sign. The argument is based on
SEEING the evidence - REACHING a conclusion and choosing to believe. The same method that we saw in the previous verses.

The danger of such a method is that the listener may simply ask for more and more signs - for the sake of signs themselves. Yet healing, miracles, signs IS the
method Christ used AND the ministry He gives to his disciples - in Matt 10.

31 "" Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, " HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'''
32 Jesus then said to them, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.
33 ""For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.''
34 Then they said to Him, ""Lord, always give us this bread.''
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

Again - Christ appeals to SEEING and then BELIEVING. SEEING Christ and the signs He performed called the people to CHOOSE whether to believe or not.

Christ does not say "I failed to pith your brain and still you do not believe" NOR does He say "I forcibly pithed your brain but still for some reason you are
not believing" - THESE methods are not Christs - but Satan's. Christ showed that HE was SHOWING them the bread of life - JUST as He showed to the disciples
but these listeners were refusing to choose - the work of God - to BELIEVE. Of course many of these same people would later become Christians in Acts 2 - for now they were stuck in unbelief.

37 "" All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 ""For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 ""This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 ""For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''

The same model again - "You have SEEN ME - so BELIEVE" for the model is "EVERYONE who BEHOLDS the SON and BELIEVES.. will have eternal life" -
NO EMPHASIS is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I PITH WILL BE FORCED to BELIEVE". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God, but does NOT say "God will choose NOT to draw some of you" -
in fact in John 12 Christ will make it clear "I will DRAW ALL MEN" unto myself. The enticement - the drawing - the supernatural power moving like the gentle
breeze of John 3 - is not FORCING the FEW and IGNORING the many - but is DRAWING ALL - gently and without being seen just as John 3 tells us.

"Behold I stand at the door and knock" Rev 3 (John again). Not "Behold a burst through the door and slam dunk your brain". The "dragging all men to Me"
part that Calvinism so desires to see in scripture - is not there.

45 ""It is written in the prophets, " AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Again He does not argue "They shall ALL be pithed of God" rather - they shall ALL be TAUGHT. And the emphasis again is on the one who has heard and learned
- gentle peacable means - not force.

46 "" Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 ""Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
48 "" I am the bread of life.
49 "" Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
50 ""This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die.

The argument that ANYONE may eat of this living bread - is flatly contradictory to Calvinism that states only the FEW may eat of it. IT is not available to ALL else all would eat and be saved.
Calvinism argues NNE may eat of it (for All have sinned) - then God supernaturally enables a FEW (selects the Few of Matt 7) so that THEY ALONE may eat of it.


51 "" I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.''

This method is opposed to Calvinism. For Christ claims to have given His life for "THE WORLD" right after asserting that "ANYONE MAY eat of the bread of life". IN Calvinism - no such thing can be true. So far this is the “perfect” Arminian form of persuasion appealing to a deciding-mind, the free will “choice” enabled through the “Drawing of all mankind” by Christ.

52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, ""How can this man give us His flesh to eat?''
53 So Jesus said to them, ""Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
54 ""He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
55 ""For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 ""He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 ""As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.

God's provision is always ALL ENCOMPASSING in the chapter Christ's life given "For the WORLD" so that "ANYONE MAY EAT of the bread of life".

The DECISION is always directed to the INDIVIDUAL "HE WHO EATS ME, HE ALSO WILL LIVE"

Yet this is the chapter where Calvinism might have hoped to find "I ignore whatever you think you may want - I simply arbitrarily force the few by pithing their brains, and then the arbitrarily selected FEW are saved - ". Instead it is the Arminian model appealing to choice, belief, acceptance of God’s Word that is given to the World – the saved and the lost.


63 "" It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 ""But there are some of you who do not believe.'' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.
65 And He was saying, ""For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.''
66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, ""You do not want to go away also, do you?''


Why is Jesus asking them what THEY want?? Classic Arminianism!
No such motivation is to be found in Calvinism which states that it is NOT what YOU want – rather it is what God CAUSES – period. No need to “ask”..

Yet here we see Christ again appealing to CHOICE, to REASON, to conclusion based on EVIDENCE - instead of simply “causing” what HE wants. Classic Arminian model.


68 Simon Peter answered Him, ""Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.
69 ""We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.''
70 Jesus answered them, "" Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?''
71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

Here we see “sovereign choice” and yet – man’s choice is in play EVEN at the level of the 12.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[T.U.L.I.P.]

T.U.L.I.P.:

I would like to challenge anyone subscribing to the first set of points mentioned(should you like a modification discuss this with me) to make a list of 50 passages of scripture supporting your position, each followed by a one (1) sentence commentary , with a brief commentary at the end and after you post your list I will post mine.

T.U.L.I.P.:

Once again; brief, one sentence commentary-the point here is to let Scripture speak for itself so the less said the better

I must ask this question, BobRyan, Can you read?

T.U.L.I.P.

I can't stand discussions over Calvinism that result in the Arminians running out of Bible and reverting to philosophy, emotionalism, and logic to make their often shallow points

I have made it clear, BobRyan, from the beginning that I, in fact, did NOT wish to discuss emotion, philosophy, logic, etc but rather Bible: However, your first post was nothing but exactly that- appealing to emotion rather than to unmistakable Biblical statements!!

It is very clear from your posts that you are, in fact, not interested in Biblical doctrine and actually learning; but rather wnning a debate!

T.U.L.I.P.:

to make a list of 50 passages of scripture, each followed by a one (1) sentence commentary supporting your position

I don't recall mentioning that I started this topic to debate! Also, note that I said scripture supporting your position

BobRyan:

Which one are you arguing? I just need to know if I need to which list of texts to give - to address one of those errors vs the other.

Once again making my point that you are not interested in Biblical doctrine but rather WINNING a DEBATE

BobRyan, I'm simply not interested in debating you. Please either post scripture references with BRIEF ONE SENTENCE COMMENTARY after EACH REFERENCE: NOT AFTER EACH SENTENCE or please leave.

Thank you

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by T.U.L.I.P.:
However, your first post was nothing but exactly that - appealing to emotion rather than to unmistakable Biblical statements

Welcome to the "world of Bob", T.U.L.I.P. It won't get any better.

 

[BobRyan]

TULIP --
BobRyan, I'm simply not interested in debating you. Please either post scripture references with BRIEF ONE SENTENCE COMMENTARY after EACH REFERENCE: NOT AFTER EACH SENTENCE or please leave.

I have to admit - I did not expect you to be ill tempered before we actually got started.

I gave you about a "dozen" variations. From 14 texts followed by a brief comment t0 1 or 2 texts followed by a comment. You have the entire spectrum - and all you come up with by "response" is that???

What is your response "supposed" to be? Dialogue?? I agree it certainly is not making a "point" as might expected in "debate" but what is your "purpose".

I have given entire chapters. I have given 12 texts from a chapter - I have given you everthing but one text snippets.

Were you looking for the one-text-snippet model?

I can do that as well - if that is what you "prefer".

I have asked you to clarify your position with something like "clarity" as in the case of deadman.org. Did you "do" that?

This just isn't that hard.

So far we are 3 texts into my set of 50 (and I have given about 70 verses in those 3 texts) - and have made over a dozen Aminian points in them -- and you are "complaining" that my 3 texts do not contain "enough Bible" that I have "run out of scripture" in the first THREE texts of the 50.

Are you claiming to have packed more scripture into YOUR first 3 of Your 50? If so, I look forward to reading the list that you post. It should be very rewarding.

I am going to provide a few more One Chapter examples of the Arminian position that scripture itself has made and then will get to smaller sets of 2-4 verses that make only 1 Arminian point in each set of 2-4.

However - you seem to be crying "uncle" before the list really gets started.

Is this a bit more scripture than you had planned on from the Arminian POV? You seem a bit surprised.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ken is right about one thing - the scripture position for Aminianism will continue to build - massively. The case for Calvinism will not "get better" as the Bible verses continue to weigh in on the Arminian POV as found in scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Text #4 of 50.

Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

23 ""For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24 ""When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25 ""But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

26 ""So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27 ""And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

28 ""But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, "Pay back what you owe.'
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked”.

35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God's Word commands us to Endure. Conditional Results IF we Endure/Persevere.

Is it addressing the problem “Some think they must persevere to be preserved faithful to the end by God. This is a silly worry – so stop worrying about it”. (as some of our 4 and 5PT Calvinist friends might insist)

Is it saying “Some think they must TRY to persevere and we are here to tell you -That is not true. God takes care of that for you. That is not for you to worry about. If you are saved you will persevere no need to think about it as IF you might not”.


Read carefully to see the problem the text is addressing – see IF it matches what 4 and 5pt Calvinism expect.
.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has ENDURED until the end that WILL be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard LEST we drift away from it .



Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house WE ARE, IF we HOLD fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. .


Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that FALLS AWAY from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, IF WE HOLD fast the beginning of our assurance FIRM UNTIL the end,



Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have NEED of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you ARE SAVED, IF you HOLD fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.



Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He WILL NOT SPARE YOU, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness; OTHERWISE you also will be cut off.
23And they also, IF they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in AGAIN.



Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 – Eternal life to “he who overcomes”

Rev 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap eternal life IF we persevere
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will REAP IF we do not grow weary.


Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one WHO ENDURES TO THE END, he WILL be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has ENDURED to the END who WILL be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for AS LONLG AS you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


God's Word giving Real Warning - to Endure/Perservere.

2Peter 2:20-22
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''


Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open same.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.


John 15:1-5 failure to persevere in bearing good fruit results in destruction by fire.

Luke :8 – Four ground types – Rocky and Thorny ground – spring to life and then fail to persevere Life from the Dead – but then it dies out “again”.

Luke 8
11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation [/b]fall away.[/b]

(The totally depraved “can not fall” they have no place to fall to.)


14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God LOVES ALL -

The good news - gospel given before the cross to Abraham "Gal 3:6-8" and it is the same that is preached today Heb 4:1-2.

And it's purpose in Isaiah as in Matt 24 - is to "Go into all the world" for "God so LOVED the world…yes Really!" and He himself "is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance…yes Really!" therefore "he calls ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent….yes Really!" and accept the ONE atoning sacrifice that was made for our sins "And NOT for our sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD…yes Really!" for "JUST as in Adam ALL died - so in CHrist shall all be justified".
The solution offer is as vast and as encompassing as the PROBLEM.


For God so LOVED the WORLD that HE GAVE HIS ONLY begotten Son - that WHOEVER believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH". John 3:16

God SO loved the world that - "HE is NOT WILLING for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3:8 - and so He extends THIS LIFE

God SO LOVED the World that "HE CALLS ALL MEN everywhere to REPENT" Acts 17:30

God so LOVED the World that "HE died for OUR SINS and NOT for our sins ONLY but for those of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2


2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Rom 3:23 ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Acts 17:30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”


Gentiles Hear Good News
Acts 10:34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)

2Cor 5:14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

1Tim 2:3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

1Tim 4:9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. 10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

1John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

1John 2:1 And if anyone sins, we have an £Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

John 12:32 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die

John 12:46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

1John 5:19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

John 3:14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 ""This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 "" For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
21 ""But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.''

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

John 1:9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name

John 1: 29The next day he saw* Jesus coming to him and said*, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 16:7 I will send Him to you. 8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Matt 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44“But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46“For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47“If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matt 11:27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29“Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30“For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

John 6: 32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6: 51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

Isaiah 45:21 And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

Isaiah 55
The Free Offer of Mercy
1 “Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2 “Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance.
3 “Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David.
4 “Behold, I have made him a witness to the peoples, A leader and commander for the peoples.
5 “Behold, you will call a nation you do not know, And a nation which knows you not will run to you, Because of the LORD your God, even the Holy One of Israel; For He has glorified you.”
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

Hebrews 2: 9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Rev 3: 20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock (God's PART); if anyone hears My voice and opens the door (MANS PART), I will come in to him and will dine with him (God's PART), and he with Me.
21‘He who overcomes (Man's PART), I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne (God's Part)

Telling the church that He is in fact standing at the door so anyone (who presumably has not opened the door and so is not in the church now because they have not yet decide for Christ) - in no way imposes a restriction on Christ's unrestricted statement above.

I am getting dangerously close to the 50 text limit here - but I just have a few more points to make about God "caring for" and "sorrowing over" the wicked.


In Christ,

Bob