He did not say they were saved by them.
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6 Myths of the Non-Cal Position
- Thread starter Sapper Woody
- Start date
He did not say they were saved by them.
So let me understand your position here. Jesus Christ is not allowed to visit anyone and preach the gospel to them? And He is not allowed to send an angel to anyone to preach the gospel to them. And He is not allowed to cause anyone to dream dreams concerning the Gospel? Is this your position?
convicted1
Guest
Oh? How about these dandies?
convicted1
Guest
That's not my position at all. That's the bible's position. Now it's your turn to prove God deals in the way you are stating it...
Uh that person is not Steaver. Anyway your use of the word "by" is inappropriate. Everyone gets save "by" the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Neither Steaver nor ITL believes otherwise.
convicted1
Guest
Steaver started it and he jumped in with his support. Birds of a feather...
Let it be noted your accusation against them is inaccurate.
Here is a good article in Christian Today...
http://www.christianitytoday.com/pa...per-suspicious-of-muslim-dreams-of-jesus.html
Notice all of the great comments from Christians at the end. Guess they are all mystics too.......
http://www.christianitytoday.com/pa...per-suspicious-of-muslim-dreams-of-jesus.html
Notice all of the great comments from Christians at the end. Guess they are all mystics too.......
You seem to misunderstand the use of the term "mystic". In fact conservative theologians refer to both Paul and John as mystics because of their direct revelation of God. To refer to someone as a mystic may not mean what you think it does.
Thanks Rev. Obviously Jesus does the saving. Can't believe I have to clarify that.
convicted1
Guest
I agree it is Christ who does the saving. I have never stated anything to the contrary. However, things are being purported on here that are foreign to the bible, imo.
The Canons of scripture are closed, and nothing is to be added or taken from it.
--'For I testify to every one hearing the words of the prophecy of this scroll, if any one may add unto these, God shall add to him the plagues that have been written in this scroll; and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'(Rev. 22:18,19 YLT)
Now, FTR, I am NOT accusing you or steaver of doing this, but rather, you're misapplying what happen during the times the bible was written with today. Adding to the bible has gotten us a world that has these religions:
--Buddhism
--Islam
--Mormonism
--Taoism
--Jainism
--SDA
--Muslim
--Shintoism
Just to name a few. I do NOT place you two in those groups, I hope you understand that.
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Doesn't matter what the comment sections says. It matters what the Bible says. Christian theology is not based on majority rule but on the absolute and infallible Word of God.
convicted1
Guest
:thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:
I certainly believe that men have dreams and visions of Jesus, but the only reason these people come to him is through the preaching/teaching of the gospel IN ADDITION to their dreams and visions, as dreams and visions are not sufficient to save.
According to Romans 1, the material creation also "speaks" to reveal what can be known about God, but that knowledge, also, is not sufficient to save. We can see God as creator through it, bit not savior.
Nice. :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
Here is a story of a Muslim conversion posted on another forum. You can easily see that there were many factors, over many years, in this person's life, not just dreams. You can also see that even a brand new believer can easily understand God's sovereignty in election.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I was Shi'i Muslim, who began having dreams and visions back in 2008.
That is where this road began. I don't know much of what the bible says. I have not owned one for very long. But I can tell you about Jesus - and who He is to me. I know, because He came to get me, where I was.
I believed in Islam, which makes this whole thing crazy really.
Now, I will tell you - my grandmother was a Christian. She prayed for me I know. But she died when I was still reasonably young, and I don't remember much if anything she said - other than amazing grace.
I would sing my own children to sleep with that song... it spoke to me somehow and I never forgot a word of it.
But, back to present day. I began having many dreams and visions, in all of them bad things were coming - and I needed to get ready. But.. I couldn't figure out what I needed to do. Only that there was something that life itself seemed to depend on, and it concerned my own spirituality.
Every avenue I took to "get myself ready" somehow, was not what was needed. More prayer, more anything... I was missing something important in my spiritual life and I couldn't figure out what. But everything depended upon getting it figured out.. and I was running out of time.
I asked sheikh after sheikh, anyone who might be able to help me interpret the dreams and help me to reach the state of spiritual readiness I needed to be in, before the really bad stuff started happening.
Because everything, it felt, depended upon me getting myself spiritually ready. Over the course of many years, I would try to set it aside when I felt I had reached a wall - and God would allow me to rest for a time. Then He would begin again, with the dreams and the visions. And back I would be, trying to figure out what I was missing, what "place" wasn't I in.
Then, a couple of years ago I found myself surrounded by Christians. And I would listen, and question, without it being obvious.. I don't know why really - I just did. I thought, maybe someone from them can help me figure out what God is trying to tell me to do, where the sheikhs couldn't.
Well I will be honest, I didn't learn much from them except for one. And he was sworn to me by a different oath between us a short time - and he couldn't answer many questions because of that. I married him, and that was why he swore to me to leave my religion and spirituality absolutely UN-influenced by himself.
So I got a hint here, and a hint there. And in time, I decided Christianity was correct. I still believed in Islam, but now I believed in Christianity too. Weird place. That was a couple months ago. I had prayed to Jesus and told him I believed I understood what He was, and that I accepted Him as my savior.
So okay, we are good. But... we aren't. Still that feeling, but more abated now. This leads me to my last dream. Where Jesus told me, in terms I could understand, what He is - to me... personally.
I didn't understand right after I woke from the dream. It took me a full 24 hours to wake up and say.. THAT was Jesus! That is what it means to be saved, THAT is what He is to me...
I haven't much stopped crying since. The whole thing is crazy...doesn't even seem real. But dream after dream, vision after vision, Jesus led me to HIM. He came and got me.. I didn't go to Him.
But I'm HIS... I belong to HIM... and He wouldn't let me go.
I posted that last dream, here on these forums, and had a perfect stranger tell me that the dream, and its interpretation, is Reformation Theology.
I did not know what Reformation theology was, so I Google'd it... lol.
But... for your information... this is the interpretation which I posted:
"None of us will make it into heaven. We cannot make it. All of us are "late".
BUT - Jesus is there, waiting for His own, to take us by the hand and vouch for us and clear all our obstacles. His Hand, and His word, will get us there.
We did not do it for ourselves. He does it for us. Because, we are HIS people - all who belong to Him.
He is like us, while still being different from us - and thus He calls us, HIS.
But heaven, we don't get alone. So ask HIM if you don't know.. if you belong to Him. But I have a feeling, is you are asking the question - then the resounding answer is Yes."
I cried after I realized that was Jesus in the dream, and that was what it meant to be saved... heck I'm still crying! I asked him into my heart as Lord and Savior, as I was guided to do by the Spirit.
That was on the 11th. Just a few days ago...
I received the Holy Spirit in Power in the last 24 hours...Last night...
This is as short as I can make my story! But only one thing I left out!"
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I was Shi'i Muslim, who began having dreams and visions back in 2008.
That is where this road began. I don't know much of what the bible says. I have not owned one for very long. But I can tell you about Jesus - and who He is to me. I know, because He came to get me, where I was.
I believed in Islam, which makes this whole thing crazy really.
Now, I will tell you - my grandmother was a Christian. She prayed for me I know. But she died when I was still reasonably young, and I don't remember much if anything she said - other than amazing grace.
I would sing my own children to sleep with that song... it spoke to me somehow and I never forgot a word of it.
But, back to present day. I began having many dreams and visions, in all of them bad things were coming - and I needed to get ready. But.. I couldn't figure out what I needed to do. Only that there was something that life itself seemed to depend on, and it concerned my own spirituality.
Every avenue I took to "get myself ready" somehow, was not what was needed. More prayer, more anything... I was missing something important in my spiritual life and I couldn't figure out what. But everything depended upon getting it figured out.. and I was running out of time.
I asked sheikh after sheikh, anyone who might be able to help me interpret the dreams and help me to reach the state of spiritual readiness I needed to be in, before the really bad stuff started happening.
Because everything, it felt, depended upon me getting myself spiritually ready. Over the course of many years, I would try to set it aside when I felt I had reached a wall - and God would allow me to rest for a time. Then He would begin again, with the dreams and the visions. And back I would be, trying to figure out what I was missing, what "place" wasn't I in.
Then, a couple of years ago I found myself surrounded by Christians. And I would listen, and question, without it being obvious.. I don't know why really - I just did. I thought, maybe someone from them can help me figure out what God is trying to tell me to do, where the sheikhs couldn't.
Well I will be honest, I didn't learn much from them except for one. And he was sworn to me by a different oath between us a short time - and he couldn't answer many questions because of that. I married him, and that was why he swore to me to leave my religion and spirituality absolutely UN-influenced by himself.
So I got a hint here, and a hint there. And in time, I decided Christianity was correct. I still believed in Islam, but now I believed in Christianity too. Weird place. That was a couple months ago. I had prayed to Jesus and told him I believed I understood what He was, and that I accepted Him as my savior.
So okay, we are good. But... we aren't. Still that feeling, but more abated now. This leads me to my last dream. Where Jesus told me, in terms I could understand, what He is - to me... personally.
I didn't understand right after I woke from the dream. It took me a full 24 hours to wake up and say.. THAT was Jesus! That is what it means to be saved, THAT is what He is to me...
I haven't much stopped crying since. The whole thing is crazy...doesn't even seem real. But dream after dream, vision after vision, Jesus led me to HIM. He came and got me.. I didn't go to Him.
But I'm HIS... I belong to HIM... and He wouldn't let me go.
I posted that last dream, here on these forums, and had a perfect stranger tell me that the dream, and its interpretation, is Reformation Theology.
I did not know what Reformation theology was, so I Google'd it... lol.
But... for your information... this is the interpretation which I posted:
"None of us will make it into heaven. We cannot make it. All of us are "late".
BUT - Jesus is there, waiting for His own, to take us by the hand and vouch for us and clear all our obstacles. His Hand, and His word, will get us there.
We did not do it for ourselves. He does it for us. Because, we are HIS people - all who belong to Him.
He is like us, while still being different from us - and thus He calls us, HIS.
But heaven, we don't get alone. So ask HIM if you don't know.. if you belong to Him. But I have a feeling, is you are asking the question - then the resounding answer is Yes."
I cried after I realized that was Jesus in the dream, and that was what it meant to be saved... heck I'm still crying! I asked him into my heart as Lord and Savior, as I was guided to do by the Spirit.
That was on the 11th. Just a few days ago...
I received the Holy Spirit in Power in the last 24 hours...Last night...
This is as short as I can make my story! But only one thing I left out!"
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convicted1
Guest
Brother Brian,
That testimony appears all 'warm and fuzzy' and all, but will it stand up to the scrutiny of the bible? Does God still operate that way after the Canons of scripture were closed in Rev. 22:18,19? I am not saying he doesn't have true salvation, I can't look inside and see the work(if He did the work) that He did in him.
Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Moroni the 'angel' and give the Mormon bible, already conveintly written in the KJV style. Mohammed was a 'prophet' for Allah. So I am on the fenceon that article...
That testimony appears all 'warm and fuzzy' and all, but will it stand up to the scrutiny of the bible? Does God still operate that way after the Canons of scripture were closed in Rev. 22:18,19? I am not saying he doesn't have true salvation, I can't look inside and see the work(if He did the work) that He did in him.
Joseph Smith claimed to have been visited by Moroni the 'angel' and give the Mormon bible, already conveintly written in the KJV style. Mohammed was a 'prophet' for Allah. So I am on the fenceon that article...
Brother Willis,
Yes, we all know about Joseph Smith and false visitations by satan disguised as an angel of light. This is why we must try the spirits, to see if they be of God. If one comes to you and says I had a dream and an angel appeared to me and said Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was crucified for my sins, and I should place my trust and faith in Him as my God and Saviour, would you call him a liar??
For all of Calvinism's bragging about God's sovereignty and providence it sure hates to see Him exercise it....
ok if your entire objection is based on the notion that God no longer uses dreams or visions to communicate to us then you have a long row to hoe.
Your insistence fails for two reasons:
1. No where in scripture does it say that dreams or visions will cease at the close of scripture.
2. The information discussed in the dreams and visions with regard to salvation is not new info that would add to scripture. The information discussed here is only that which is already found in scripture.
So your comparison to Joseph Smith fails. Maybe you should step back from your computer and gain your composure before posting any further on this subject.