629 reasons why I'm a Calvinist

getting back to the OP, would anyone care to let me know if they have read through the verse list? Or if they have an equally daunting list that disproves Calvinism?

 

Thank you very much mman for a very intelligent and well-thought out response! THIS is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see done more. Point/counterpoint from scripture. I'll comment on each verse as I see it in context. This may be a long post, so bear with me


• Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Comment: Receiving the word is not the same as accepting Christ. Having the word take root in your heart IS accepting Christ. In this verse, the affliction and persecution arose and for this they fell away. But what do we learn in 1 Corinthians about God's dealings with His children in affliction?

1Cr 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

The ones that truly ARE saved WILL be able to bear it because God has promised to make a way to bear it. Again here:

2Cr 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

If weakness and falling caused us to lose our salvation, why would Paul glory in it? Why would Paul's infirmities be something that is Christ-honoring if salvation was lost? The answer is- it cannot be. The infirmities of a believer glorify God because He will raise us up in power. The seed that did not raise up was only showing superficial joy- and proved it was not true from the beginning by falling away. Only unbelievers can ultimately succumb to temptation time and again.


• Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." - The only way one can be severed is if he were once connected.

Comment: I don't know what translation you are using, but here is the same verse in the KJV-

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

That is far different than the passage you just quoted. The meaning of the passage is quite plain in the KJV- if you are relying on the works of the law to save you, you are making Christ of none effect and grace is worthless to you. Also note that Paul is speaking to Jews in general (saved and unsaved) which means his words are not specifically aimed at believers. If they were, this verse could possibly mean you can lose your salvation. But the audience reveals the intentions behind the words.


• John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Comment: There is no indication here that Christ is speaking of the fires of hell. Cross reference Christ's words here with 1 Corinthians 3:13-

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Christ is speaking of the fruits of salvation, and if someone is not producing fruit, his works will be burned up. It makes no Biblical sense whatsoever that Jesus would be telling us we can go to hell after being washed under the blood. What worthless blood it is if such a thing were possible!


• Romans 11:19-23 "You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again."

Comment: Again, there is no indication Paul is speaking of eternal damnation when referring to being 'cut off.' Most likely, he is referring to fellowship. When a believer sins, he falls from fellowship with God and is 'cut off' so to speak. This passage is relating to Israel and the same thing happened with them. God did not ultimately cast out Israel, but He surely turned his back on her when she sinned. Just as God will never cast off His people Israel, He will never cast off His bride, the church.


• Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Comment: Spurgeon preached an entire sermon on this passage. I recommend you read it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1119891794-7332.html


• Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Comment: This verse merely says the people in question have received 'knowledge of the truth'- not the truth itself. It's very similar to the knowledge of good and evil. What you know CAN hurt you. If a person KNOWS the way of salvation but does not accept it and willfully sins, he is in greater danger of judgement than one who was simply ignorant.


• Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

Comment: There is no indicator in this verse that 'those who have faith' can shrink back to destruction. There appears to be two groups: The just and the unjust. Let's look at it in the KJV:

Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

There are those that are just and live by faith, and those that do not.

Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The just are not those that draw back unto perdition, but those that believe unto the saving of the soul. These verses do not prove you can lose your salvation; they demonstrate that there are only two groups of people: Saved and lost.

• Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

Comment: Believers can be misled and deceived. It happens a lot nowadays. They will never lose their salvation though.

• 1 Timothy 1:18-20 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"

Comment: I've witnessed believers shipwreck their lives too. It's a sad thing to see. But they did not lose their salvation.

Pro 24:16 For a just [man] falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

• 2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

Comment: These verses lack a reference to eternal security in them. It merely says these men have gone astray in their eschatology. If every person who was misled in eschatology had lost their salvation, what a sad state we'd be in! There is no apparent evidence these men 'lost' their salvation. They were misled and then in turn misled others.

• 1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

This has happened time and time again- but not to believers. Catholicism is an example of men who 'fell away from the faith' and produced a new religion. The Catholic church began as an offshoot of the true church. The same thing happens with many of the cults of today: A man who was raised in a Christian home or environment turns his back or distorts the faith, and pays attention to false doctrines. The verse doesn't say these people were believers- it says they have turned from the faith. Which faith? The Bible-believing Christian faith. They have turned to a 'new faith.' Reading down the chapter you can see some of the things they turn to such as forbidding to marry, abstaining from meats and so on. These sound like things the Catholic church does.


• 1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

Comment: Astray, yes. Losing their salvation, no.

• 2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

Comment: Forgive me for pasting in a few paragraphs from gotquestions.org, but it is very good material:

The first interpretation is as follows: In Revelation 5:9 we see that men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation are "purchased for God" by the blood of Christ. The most common definition of being "purchased" by God in Scripture refers to being God's redeemed possession through the blood of Christ. If a man is purchased by the blood of Christ, then that man will unquestionably go to heaven (as we will see in the discussion of Perseverance of the Saints.) So, either these men who deny the "Maker who bought them" have lost their salvation, or there is simply a title given to these men due to a prior confession that they are now apostatizing from. These men have claimed to be believers. So, in an outward sense, they are labeled as being "bought" by God. If a person claims to be a true Christian, there is no other category to fall under except "bought." These men confess to know and be purchased by Christ. Are they? They are not. These men now apostatize, revealing that they were never believers (1 John 2:19), create heresy, and deny the Maker who bought them, that is, they deny the prior confession that they were bought by God. If you claim to be a Christian, then you are indeed labeled a Christian (one who is bought), whether you truly are or not. The wording of 2 Peter 2:1 is making that type of statement. These false prophets are denying the Maker who bought them, or are removing themselves from the label "Bought by the Maker." This is the first possible interpretation of this verse.

The second interpretation is rooted in the Greek wording of "Maker." The word "Maker" in 2 Peter 2:1 is the Greek word "despotes," a word that is hardly ever used to describe Christ. When Christ is addressed as "Master," it is always the word "epistates." Otherwise, "despotes" is used to describe the Father. What difference does this make? Well, the definition of "bought" can be different depending on who the subject of the statement is. If the subject is Jesus Christ then “bought” is likely referring to the atonement. If the subject is the Father, then "bought" could describe the ownership and Lordship of God over all creation. Being "Master" for God the Father means that nothing has come about apart from Him (Daniel 4:28-32). For these false prophets to deny the "despotes" that "bought" them could simply be referring to God's centrality in their existence, whether acknowledged or not. It could be stated, ".denying the Maker who made them." Sound far fetched? The justification for this interpretation comes from Deuteronomy 32:6: (referring to men of Israel who depart from God's ways - very similar to 2 Peter) "Do you thus repay the Lord, O foolish and unwise people? Is not He your Father who has bought you? He has made you and established you." It seems clear that to be "bought" in the sense of Deuteronomy 32:6 indicates ownership and provision from God. Also, Peter is likely writing to Jews in 2 Peter 2:1. So, to describe these apostate Jewish false prophets in the way Moses describes apostate Israelites is fitting. The audience would have had a clear picture as to the state of those apostatizing from such a description. Most theologians take this latter interpretation. Nevertheless, 2 Peter 2:1 cannot be used to deny Limited Atonement.


• 2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

Comment: Fall from steadfastness? Yes. Fall from salvation? no.

• 2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

Comment: Verse 8 refers to losing your reward. That is confirmed by the wood, hay, stubble verse we looked at earlier. Verse 9 refers to abiding in the teachings of Christ- and actually proves final perseverance. Those that abide are the saved ones, those that don't are not.

• 1 Timothy 6:9-10 "But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith, and pierced themselves with many a pang."

Comment: Notice that those who get rich do not necessarily plunge into ruin and destruction- they fall into temptation and a snare which plunge men into destruction. Also notice that these men have wandered away from the faith, but there is no mention that they have lost their salvation. I've wandered myself once, but God never lost His grip on my soul and His blood never lost efficacy.

• 2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.""

Comment: As I stated before, it is better to be ignorant, then to know the way of righteousness and reject it. But simple head-knowledge isn't enough to save a man and that is the point here: For those who pretend, their final state is worse than the first because they KNEW what the truth was and still rejected it.

• James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins." (this is not saving his "soul" from physical death - so it is saving his soul from spiritual death. - A passage could not be more clear that one of the brethern can stray from the truth which results in spiritual death).

Comment: The word translated soul is psuche and we get our word 'psyche' from it. It appears 58 times in the NT as 'soul' but 40 times as 'life.' Either way, this word psuche is referring to the person himself (his life and being) not just simply his neverdying soul. If you replace the word 'soul' with 'life' in the verse, you come up with a translation that fits context better, and poses no problem to eternal security.

• Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."

Comment: Not a reference to salvation but service. God will take the specific church out of place if it is not repenting of it's deeds.

• Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

Comment: The book of life is the book of those who are living. If a believer grieves God, he may be taken from the book of life (the living) so that he cannot soil Christ's name any longer on earth.

• Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"

be steadfast immovable: 1 Cor 15:58

Comment: Just because you can move or be deceived doesn't mean you can ultimately apostasize or die in your sins as a Christian.

If these qualities are yours...2 Pe 1:5-11

Comment: Read the passage through. It is speaking of fruits, not ways to lose salvation.

we will reap if we do not grow weary: Gal 6:9

Comment: Growing weary is not equal to losing salvation.

be faithful unto death and I will give crown of life: Rev 2:10

Comment: Perseverance of the saints.

practice these things and God will be with you: Phil 4:9

Comment: Fellowship with God, not salvation.

Weak brother may perish - 1 Cor. 8:11

Comment: The word for perish is apollumi and it means 'to destroy' not 'to die and go to hell.' This verse is speaking of destroying a weaker brother by your testimony or decisions. It has nothing to do with his salvation.

Fall into condemnation - James 5:12

Comment: The word for condemnation is hupokrisis and we get our word 'hypocrisy' from it. The NT translates hupokrisis as 'hypocrisy' 5 times and as 'condemnation' once. I think this is a mistranslation.

Be moved away from the hope - Col. 1:21-23

Comment: Moved away from hope of the gospel, but not losing salvation.

Depart from the living God - Heb. 3:12

Comment: Losing fellowship and falling astray.

Can be a castaway - 1 Cor. 9:27

Comment: The word for castaway is adokimos and it also translates out as reprobate or rejected. This is referring to usefullness in service, not salvation.

Can become accursed children - 2 Pet. 2:14

Comment: This verse is referring to unbelieving false teachers. 'that cannot cease from sin' is a description of an unbeliever not a believer.

Whether you accept my understanding of these verses is moot. The point is that I am reading the Greek text underlying the passages and there are at least 2 interpretations of each verse- which means mainline doctrine cannot be founded upon them (especially when there are scores of verses to the contrary).

Praise the Lord for a salvation that is so strong, weak sinful man cannot earn it, break it, or lose it! God gets so much more glory in eternal security than He would if we could fall from grace.