7-11 vs. Modern

Don't you think you are ripping this line out of the context? Is Teresa really have a Holy Presence? Does she really have a "Very Word that is spoken" to you?

We can take any number of hymns, cut out two lines, and add to them what we may.

Amazing Kristina! How sweet the sound! Who saved a wretch like me!

I Love You, Kristina. And I lift my voice to worship you. (And who here hasn't "worshipped" the love of their live, eh?)

That's very disengenious of you there, Dr. Bob.

 

This "tripe" is found in very little - the fact that you would say that "Breathe" is a mere love song is ripping the lyrics out of context.

And you have the burden of proof in showing this is so.

 

The breathe song could be about any holy presence...if you were a buddhist,it could be for buddha...I like words that are more specific to the God I love who's Son laid down His life for us...his charcater,his attributes,etc.

 

That's like saying that if I tell my wife, "I love you," that I have to specifically say her name, just in case she might take it that I am talking about someone else. Kinda silly, huh?

 

Yes and no. You love your wife. She knows it. You tell her "I love you." You are talking directly to her. If you walk around the mall with her shouting "I love you, I love you", she's gonna know you're talking about her. But, imagine if all the men in the mall started shouting "I love you" at the same time. We would'nt know who loved who, unless they were specifically putting a name before or after it.

When I sing a song of worship or praise, whether it be a psalms, hymn or spiritual song, I want to know and those who are singing with me to know it's a song about Almighty God, Yahweh, Jesus Christ himself. Not that we do, but if all we sang were songs that have been dubbed the kitty, kitty songs, we could open our doors to any religion, any faith, to come in and sing. Everyone could worship their own god.

 

I think BREATH and DRAW ME CLOSE are songs not really fit for public worship. The songs never address who is being praised. Who is "YOU"? Yes, I am sure the writer means Jesus but one of my primary complaints with much Praise and Worship is a lack of emphasis on the Trinity in the song writing.

I am not anti Praise and Worship in that I think there are some good Praise and Worship songs that have a place in worship and that I like. Some of the reasons many people are anti Praise and Worship is the way they are sung or led by a music minister. I mean singing I LOVE YOU LORD chorus over, over, over, over and over again is irrating and boring.

I find these problems with MOST Praise and Worship songs

1. Lack of Theological Depth - A emphasis on a more Trinitarian theme plus more meat in the songs would help. I think if they cannot improve in this area, they should be just suppliments to the more theologically meatier Classic Hymns in worship. There is a place for simple Love songs to God in worship but songs should express theological truths in adoring God. Songs such as "And Can it Be?" "Holy, Holy, Holy" "O Worship the King" do express this but most Praise and Worship songs do lag in this area.

2. The Music Style is Dated - Most Praise and Worship songs are not really contemporary in that the music style seems more similar to 1970's and 1980's style music. It seems more related toward Baby boomers and Gen x to some extent. I have heard one Youth Director and a couple of otherc sources state that the new group of teenagers do not relate with it as well.

This is a interesting article regarding Rivermont Baptist Church in Lynchburg Va. This Church has a Contemporary Praise and Worship servic plus a Celtic style Liturgical service.

"The contemporary service is larger and the pews are filled with Baby Boomers who have become the established, middle-aged core of the congregation. For them, pop praise choruses and a chatty atmosphere have become normal. What was once "modern" is now strangely "traditional."

Meanwhile, said Prior, the Celtic service is attracting a unique blend of young adults, who are drawn by its beauty and mysticism, and the elderly, who appreciate peace and quiet. Church leaders refer to this as a gathering of the "pre-moderns and the postmoderns." What was once "traditional" is now strangely "innovative."

Post Modern Celtic Baptists /

 

I have not seen a Christian yet who did not understand who the words were meant for when corporately singing them in a service.

That's the way many people feel when they have to sing hymns with a repetitive chorus four or five times.

Praise and Worship isn't trying to be a theological treatise nor a creed. It is merely expressing worship to a Holy God. A praise and worship song saying, "For all that you've done, I will thank you" holds much more theological truth than people give them credit for. Theology can be expressed using simple words and messages.

Might I encourage you to listen to some of the newer stuff that is coming out, such as Chris Tomlin, the David Crowder Band, Ross King, and Delirious? Perhaps you just haven't been exposed to new-enough music?

That is awesome. I would love to go to a service like that. Worship isn't confined by a style - it is expressed through hearts.

 

I'd love to (although as of now, I haven't even been anywhere near the West. The farthest I've gone is seeing the Mississippi river - on this side). Thanks for the invite! keep the faith!

 

I think you are correct. That is the reason there is room for Praise and Worship in the Church. I however do not think it should be the most predominany form if it does not give a deeper theological message in it's content. I personaly believe Dr. Robert Webber of WORSHIP LEADER magazine's concept of a blend of Classical hymns along with Praise and Worship songs Plus Gospel Hymns (such as Victory in Jesus, Soon and Very Soon) is the best appoach that provides theological balance.

Thanks for the recommendation. You may be correct. I will check them out.

Here is a interesting article by Chad Hall Consultant to Innovative Churches, North Carolina
Baptist Convention (SBC) PLUS a shameless promo for my worship discussion group at Liturgical Baptists where it may be found and also the whole article may be found at Cool Churches


Right now we live in a shadowy, in-between period. It's not yet time
to abandon completely the late-modern worship style that is embodied
by Saddleback, Willow Creek and a host of others. In most contexts,
that style of worship is more appropriate than a totally postmodern
one. However, we should thank God for the (few) churches of today who
are fumbling about as they experiment with more radical approaches to
worship. While it's hip to do things that are new and flashy, these
pioneers are incorporating the past in order to be effective in the
future.

Characteristics of postmodern worship -- Well, here are some of my
guesses:

1. Images of ancient icons, statuary, paintings, etc. that are
randomly flashed on a screen

2. A station where worshippers can light a prayer candle and/or type
in a prayer that is. added to a prayer marquee that everyone can see.

3. Unpredictable Service. Modern = predictable. This is why
Saddleback or Willow Creek are so modern. Although they are
infinitely more interesting that your run-of-the-mill traditional
service, they are just as predictable. A regular attendee knows
exactly what the order will be (pretty much like last week's). The
cure for predictability will be planning. That is, worship leaders
will have to plan services in an effort to incorporate different
elements and different order each week. An option here might be for
worship leaders to have 25 or 30 different worship elements (drama,
sermon, music set, lighting of a candle, video clip, testimony, etc.)
from which they pull 5 to 10 to use in a given week.

4. Banners - a somewhat traditional aspect of worship that might just
make a big comeback. They help worshippers focus and surround them
with meaning.

5. Relationship-oriented elements in worship. The number one way to
experience the grace of God is through relationships. By encouraging
the formation of worship-based relationships, church leaders will
encourage worship to continue beyond the service. One radical idea is
a for-profit approach to worship where a person opens a small
business (coffee house, restaurant, barber shop, etc.) with the
intention of getting people talking about and experiencing Jesus.

6. Smells and bells. Experiential worship will engage all five
senses, and small sounds and smells can have a big effect. It's no
coincidence that aromatherapy candles are a huge market. As our world
gets more sterile, people long for smells that create a certain mood,
lest their world be mood-less.

7. Guided meditation. Seekers who show up for a contemplative service
will need (and long) to be guided in their prayers. The prayers will
still be their own, but guidance will help them head in the right
direction.

8. Multi-paced service. For the most part, modern services move at
one, uniform pace (either dirge-like slow or arena football fast).
Postmoderns might find it helpful to vary the service speed in order
to encourage contemplation that moves toward celebration in the same
service.

 

And Amazing Grace can be sung to Allah, are you gonna stop singing it? Didn't think so.

So we have two songs out of the top 25? 8%?
Actually, I would argue 4%, since Breath is fairly obvious. "word came down" "holy presence" You'd have to be pretty dense not to know who that's referring to, so it can't be called a "kitty" song without skipping over some of the lyrics.

And I agree about Draw Me Close. If it's used at the right time it can be good, and of course the reverse is true. Songs like this have to be used correctly, and a good worship leader certainly helps, for instance I've heard it done many times by adding Jesus to the very beginning, making "Jesus draw me close..." Works pretty well, and because it's a slow song it's easy to do. Oh, and this song should virtually ALWAYS go after another song or a Bible verse or prayer. It shouldn't be used as a call to worship or after offering or something.

So anyway, 4% of these songs are "Kitty." I think we can stop with the "I can't stand P&W because I could sing it all to my cat" junk. The only evidence provided has thus far shown that false, so lets let that die.

 

I think we should be diligent no matter what kind of songs we use. However, I would also urge that we be very careful about lumping all praise and worship as "kitty litter" songs.

 

An exact quote from Pete:

Yeah. Ummm, maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't call 4% an endless stream. I believe Pete's statement has been shown false based on the evidence presented thus far.

Yes, there are some bad P&W just like there are some bad hymns(Not that Draw Me Close is bad, it just has to be used correctly). Yes, we should be diligent in our choices. But no, we should not use such grossly inaccurate generalizations as the one used in the above quote.

 

Like I have said all along ....discernment,discretion,and wisdom are the answers for choosing music.

Some,just because it is contemporary and they llike the style,say that it is great...I think we are trying to say that some new songs are okay,but for the most part,the praise and worship songs lack depth(I did not say all songs). I agree there are some hymns not doctrinally good either.

It is funny that a lot of the songs sung in churches today and the most popular ones are the ones lacking depth and biblical accuracy...there are excellent ones out there,why are they not *popular* hmmmmm...that's a thought. Maybe because people like the light,carefree,non convicting feel good music and then we are back at *give them what they want* instead of what they really need.

Molly

 

Your statement that "the most popular ones are the ones lacking depth and biblical accuracy" has been proven false. One (and maybe two, being lenient) of the most popular praise and worship songs have had criticisms on this board. Unless you can find more examples, your statement is resoundingly incorrect.