70 weeks described in Dan. 11

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

1827-1828​

Henry Drummond (Church of England), Edward Irving, and others, meet at Henry's Albury estate and crystalize a (eurocentric) historicist interpretation of Bible prophecy in the light of the French Revolution using the Bible's 'days'= years as the key to reconcile Scripture with history, such as -

"The 1260 years (sic.) of Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 ought to be measured from the reign of Justinian to the French Revolution".

1829-1833​

Edward Irving, Henry Drummond, and John Nelson Darby develop the 'pre-Tribulation Rapture' theory of Christ's Return. Darby (Plymouth Brethren) promotes the idea as part of a dispensational division of history. Through the Bible notes of a lawyer, C.I. Scofield, the Irving-Drummond-Darby 'pre-Tribulation Rapture' theory spreads among Christians to become the dominant End Time view in most evangelical and pentecostal circles.

1832​

Latter Day Saints (Mormonism) founder, Joseph Smith of America, says:
"I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following: Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter." (Doctrine & Covenants 130:14-15).
Joseph Smith declared: "I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written--the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old." (History of the Church, Vol.5, pp.336-37).

1833​

November 13: A large meteor shower is observed, which Ellen G. White (later, principal teacher of the Seventh-day Adventist movement) declares to be "the last of the signs of His (Christ's) coming" (1888:333/4).

1840​

Josiah Litch ('Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prohpecy', August1, 1940) predicts the end of Ottoman power to be August 11, 1840. Turkey's acceptance of the protection of the allied powers of Europe on that date is widely regarded as the prediction fulfilled, and so the historicist (Miller's method) prophetic interpretation gains great credibility leading to a wide acceptance of his 1844 prediction.

​

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

1844​

Joseph Smith dies without seeing the Lord's Return or his 85th birthday.

March 21: William Miller, encouraged by some clergy, calculates this date as Christ's Return based eroneously on Daniel 8:9-26. (See 1840). It fails and its 2300 'years' are recalculated from and to autumn rather than spring in 457 BC.​

October 22 (Jewish Yom Kippor): The Return of Christ predicted by Miller's Adventists (numbering about 100 000) fails again. ​

Ellen White later defends this date by blaming the churches of the time and God, saying that it was the church's view that the word 'sanctuary' in Dan.8:14 meant earth rather than heaven that led to the error (White 1888:352), and that "God designed tp prove His people. His hand covered a mistake in the reckoning of the prophetic periods." (White 1888:373). ​

She re-interprets this date as the beginning of a 'cleansing of the sanctuary' in Heaven instead, and commits herself to the Great Week model of prophecy (White 1888:659).​

1845​

The Seventh-day Adventist movement, guided by Ellen White, develops her doctrine of the 'mark of the Beast' as Sunday-worship under a papal Antichrist, in explanation of Christ's 'delayed' Return with a theory of a change in Christ's Heavenly ministry in 1844 AD. The United States of America is damned as the 'False Prophet' of the book of Revelation.​

1864​

Edward Irving's predicted Return of Christ fails (see 1825).​

1888​

Ellen White publishes 'The Great Controversy', teaching 6 000 years of Satanic activity (from Adam's fall to Christ second coming, page 673), the Great Week theory.​

1889​

Michael Baxter, editor of the Christian Herald, announces in his book The End of This Age about the End of This Century that 1896 would witness the Rapture of 144 000 devout Christians, and that the world would end in 1901.​

1896​

Baxter's Rapture does not happen.​

1901​

Baxter's Millennium does not come.​

1914​

Jehovah's Witnesses' predicted return of Christ fails, but they now change their teaching to an invisible Coming known only to true believers.​

1917​

May 13th: Three small children claim to have seen the Virgin Mary standing in an oak tree. On the 13th of each subsequent month until October crowds gather to see the vision but only the children claim to see her. They also claim that three prophecies are given, two revealed and a third kept secret in the Vatican(see May 2000).​

1959​

April 22nd: hundreds of 'Davidians' (a break-away Seventh-day Adventist sect) at their 77 acre compound at Waco, Texas, await the Return of Christ, watched by a large crowd and the media. The expectation is broadcast across the United States - and fails (see 1993, February 28th).​

1965​

July: self-styled prophet, William Branham, declares in response to a California earthquake: "The Scripture reader or even a--a believer knows that we are now at the end of the history of the world. There will be no use of writing it, because there won't be anybody to read it. It's at the end of the time. ..."​

1973​

Hal Lindsey publishes in his best-selling book 'Late Great Planet Earth' that there will be only one generation between Israel's new statehood and the End Time. Although he does not state the date he provides many of the arguments upon which the date 1988 is based.​

April,Rev. David Wilkerson claims a supernatural vision of imminent world-wide disaster of unprecedented proportions, economic collapse, famine, earthquakes, etc., in 'this generation', leading to Christ's sudden evacuation of Christians and the rise of Antichrist. 'More than one-third of the United States will be designated a disaster area within the next few years'. ​

Roman Catholic Sister Agnes Katsuko at Akito, Japan, receives a message from the Virgin Mary, saying 'Father God will inflict a punishment greater than the Deluge ... Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, sparing neither priests nor the faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead.' In anticipation of the year 2000. (TW Petrisko, Call of the Ages, Queenship, 1995, p.xxi)​

1978​

November 18th: 'Disciple's of Christ' church, 'Peoples Temple', Jonestown, Guyana, conducts a mass suicide of its 900 members (one third were under 18 years and so some probably murdered) because of a Federal investigation (they practiced suicide procedures several times over the years as a sign of loyalty to the church). Pastor Jim Jones had warned his followers that a disastrous period of fascism, race war, and nuclear holocaust was coming. In the year of the suicide 'Peoples Temple' was the highest contributing church to their denomination.​

​

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

1979​

'Les Propheties De Saint Malachie' (the prophecy of the popes) is published by journalist Daniel Reju, increasing apprehension of the end of the world at the end of the millenium. (See 1595).

1980s​

Edgar Whisenant (former NASA engineer) publishes his book, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988.
Hal Lindsey (of 'The Late Great Planet Earth') writes concerning the so-called 'Jupiter Effect' - 'what we can expect in 1982 is the largest outbreak of killer quakes ever seen in the history of planet earth along with radical changes in climate'.

1982​

Hal Lindsey's 'Jupiter Effect' prediction fails.

1988​

Charles Taylor, American prophecy teacher, advertises a Holy Land tour with the incentive that by staying in a hotel on the Mount of Olives, 'if this is the year of our Lord's return, as we anticipate, you may even ascend to Glory from within a few feet of His ascension.'
September 11/12 is expected as the date of the Rapture by Trinity Broadcasting Network, who cancel their regular programs and run videotapes instructing non-believers what to do if their families suddenly shoot up into the sky.
September 29/30 is published by Hart Armstrong (chairman of 'Christian Communications') as a Rapture Alert date in his publications.
October: Return of Christ as predicted by many Christian evangelicals fails (40 years (a 'generation') + 1948 (Israel's statehood) = 1988).
Christian evangelist George Curle predicts God's judgment on Antichrist in 1999, the Tribulation in 2002, and Christ's Return and the millennium of Israel in 2005: 'the third Exodus for Israel and believing Gentiles will be accomplished in 2005 AD'.

1991​

Cape Town Reformed church minister predicts the beginning of the great Tribulation 'op die laaste' by September 1995 and Christ's Return by 2002.

1992​

The Tami Church based in Seoul, South Korea, under pastor Lee Jang Rim, distributes the visions and prophecies of it's world-wide membership indicating the Rapture will happen 28th October 1992. (the Millennium will begin 7 years later in 2000 AD).
October 28th: 20 000 members of the 'Mission for the Coming Days' (Tami Church), spend the afternoon waiting for the Rapture, resulting in great public humiliation to Christians and the amusement of the world.
​

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

1993​

February 28th: Four American Federal Agents investigating illegal weapons are killed, 16 wounded, by 'Davidians' at Waco, Texas, thus initiating a siege of the premises (see 1959). The Davidians believe they are living in the days of the book of Revelation.

March 11th: President Clinton is appealed to jointly by Revd's Dunn (Baptist Joint Committee) and Kelley (National Council of Churches) to urgently demilitarized the Waco siege, as the 'Davidian' apocalyptic mentality would see it as 'validation of their fondest prophecies ... Whether it explodes or implodes, the result will be tragic for all'. ​

April 19th: 6.00 AM Teargassing of the Waco compound begins. Davidians fire at Federal Agents. ​

12.05 PM The Waco Davidian compound bursts into flame accompanied by explosions and gunfire. 74 Davidians are found dead, including 21 children (10 under five years old).

1995​

Roman Catholic newspaper 'Queen of Peace' (Pittsburgh Centre for Peace, Spring, 1995) announces concerning the nearing third millennium, 'The time has arrived' ... the long awaited 'Era of Peace' predicted at Fatima in 1917 is said to be about to occur. ... The Virgin's words indicate the face of the earth will be transformed. Like the ancient cities of Sodom or Gomorrah, some nations will even vanish. Others, like Russia, are promised to blossom with new splendour. Peace will rule and the Church will reign, Evil will be paralysed, and like an old well, it will dry up and almost vanish from the face of the earth.' ​

September: Rev. Malan's predicted start of the Tribulation and world rule of Anti-Christ fails (see 1991).

1997​

Marilyn J. Agee, with much Christian support, publishes her so-called Bible-based predictions, as:

1998

'most likely May'
Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Bride of Christ
2007
September 12
The end of this Age (Elul 29, 5767)​

September 13
The 2300th day of the Shortened Tribulation, Pre-Wrath Rapture of Tribulation Saints​

All Israel born-again in a day (who will live on into the Millennium) (Tishri 1, 5768).​

2008 April 6: the Return of our Lord Jesus Christ with His saints first day of Jewish Regnal Year (Nisan 1, 5768).
2008 May 30: Armageddon lasts 40 days and 40 nights, ends Friday (Iyar 25, 5768).
2008 May 31: true world peace, the Millennium, begins (Iyar 26, 5768).
November 6: Archbishop Ussher's prediction fails (see 1654). But, Dr James McKeever (editor of the End Times News Digest) declares that the 6000 years of the Great Week could end 'sometime between now and the year 2030'.

1998​

May: Marilyn Agee's prediction of the Rapture of Christians fails!
August 16: Samuel Doctorian announces to Christians at a Prayer Retreat on Patmos an encounter he had with the "five angels of the five continents" in his room on the island at 3:50 AM on Saturday June 20 1998 who revealed to him a program of world destruction starting immediately, during which the Christian church will be preserved. Financial crisis, nuclear holocaust, earthquakes over Asia killing millions, Australia will split and "a great part will go under the ocean". Nuclear weapons used in general war throughout the whole Middle East (which he describes as a continent) causes huge loss of life. In Europe earthquakes and flooding, "millions drown", Eiffel tower collapses, a "great part of Germany destroyed", etc. In Africa, from Cape to Cairo, earthquakes to change river flow and drown many. "There shall be a trembling of the earth like has not been seen since the creation. None shall escape the sword of the Lord". Millions die. "The final day has come. Judgment day is here." In the Americas millions die, the Atlantic and the Pacific join together, "the Amazon river turning into a great sea". "The angel said, 'It is our message. You are the instrument, the channel. What a privilege that God has chosen you to give this message to the nations.' I said, 'Lord, Thy will be done'."
What a pity that this ultimate message was entrusted to someone with such limited resources to tell the nations so that it was only announced 57 days later (more than eight weeks!). It could have helped many Christian pensioners to avoid loosing their life savings in the slide of many stock markets following the East Asian financial crisis of this year. Amazing!
September 20: Robert Blake 'This could see the start of the Final War, Armageddon, followed by the establishment of the Millennium in the year 2000.'


​

​

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

1999​

January 4th, The Interior Ministry of Israel orders the deportation of 11 members of an apocalyptic Christian cult under suspicion that they were planning to commit violent acts in Jerusalem at the close of 1999, Israel Radio, 'Kol Yisrael', reports. Three additional cult members will remain in Israel for questioning. The 'Jerusalem Post' reports that the Denver-based apocalyptic cult intended to provoke a shoot-out by opening fire on policemen, an act they believed would hasten the second coming of Jesus. A police statement said that "The arrests were carried out to protect certain sectors of the Israeli population and members of the cult themselves, who blindly follow" a leader who is now overseas. According to Israeli authorities, the leader, identified as Monte Kim Miller, has claimed that he is one of the final 'two witnesses' prophesied in the New Testament in Chapter 11 of the Book of Revelation, and is said to have told his followers that he would die in Jerusalem in December 1999 and be resurrected three days later.

July-August: A note on Nostradamus (Michel de Notredame)
Recent publications of Nostradamus' 'prophecies' as applied to whatever is the current public concern are largely inventions of the various commentators/publishers and bear little relation to his 1555 and 1558 Centuries. (The title 'Centuries' merely refers to the grouping of his rhyming quatrains and has no reference to time).

Evangelist Curle's predictions begin to fail. (see 1988).
July 7: Eileen Lakes - The pole-shift in July 1999 will immerse the world in the Water Baptism.(?) At 7 am GMT, according to Eileen, the world will turn 90 degrees to the right 'very instantly'. Perhaps her own surname inspired her.
August 24: Adrian Gilbert's astrological calculation of the End fails.
September 27: H.J. Hoekstra - The date of the Rapture! - Really?

See Apocalyptic Christian cults arrive in Israel (opens in own window)​

2000​

April, Friday 17, Uganda: Leaders of a dissident Catholic apocalyptic sect ('Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God') burn 470 followers to death. The subsequent investigation exposes several mass murders by the sect's priests, bring the total victims to above 900, and indicating that financial gain by the priests may have been the motive.

May: Astrologists' predicted apocalyptic disasters arising from a so-called "alignment" of the planets does not happen.
Saturday 13, Rome: The Papacy announces the content of the third and secret 'prophecy' of Fatima, being one of danger to the pope amidst a field of corpses. (see 1917).

September 6: Daniel Adam Millar - The peace accord between Israel and Palestine on September 13, 1993 marked the beginning of the seven-year tribulation. On September 6, 2000, the Antichrist will proclaim himself God, and begin the battle of Armageddon. (This Tribulation needs to be renamed!).
September 13: The House of Yahweh - The last seven years of human history began on September 13, 1993. Presumably, the final war will then begin sometime about September 13, 2000. (ditto).
Another widely predicted Return of Christ fails (Sir Isaac Newton, et al).

2001​

Jack van Impe - This year will see the start of the Great Tribulation. Political chaos, natural disasters, nuclear war and the worldwide rise of Islam will usher in mankind's final hour. (Apart from nuclear war, what's new?).

2002​

Predicted Return of Christ fails. (see 1991).
Michael Drosnin publishes his ELS 'Bible' code prediction of "world war", "End of Days" and "atomic holocaust" in the year 2006 AD (Year 5766 Rabbinic).

See: Bible Codes?​

2006​

According to Drosnin the world 'ends' in nuclear holocaust (or Drosnin's world if he were honest).

2007​

Another predicted Return of Christ is to fail. (Based on the 40 years, a supposed 'generation', after the 'Six Day War' of 1967 which brought the ancient Temple site under Israeli political control).

2013​

An asteroid larger than Jupiter will strike the earth. (If it's an "asteroid" it is in our solar system. If it's as large as Jupiter how come it is invisible?).

​

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And then there's the 2030 one I think attributed to Isaac Watts.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Interesting. But the main ones I know about weren't even on the list

88 REASONS WHY THE RAPTURE WILL BE IN 1988 (Wisenant, 1988) - predicts the final war (nuclear) starts on 25 Sept 1988 (the day I turned 45). The next 3½-years, the first half of the Tribulation Period, will be quite due to the nuclear winter. Unfortunately he forgets that due to the stress on Foreign Missions 1880-1970 there have been (since 19750 more nominal Christians in Africa than in North America.

The Myan (Central America) calendar ends abruptly in 2012.

To be continued

 

[Ed Edwards]

In early November 1993 the leader of Israel, Arafat, and Bill Clinton posed for a picture at the signing of a SEVEN YEAR peace treaty for Jerusalem &/or Israel. Obviously the Lord would come back in Nov 2000 at the post-tribulation only rapture. I'm a pretribulation rapture believer. I really get disappointed when the post-tribulation rapture happens and I miss it This comming wasn't mentioned in the list. Say, what kind of list is it? I haven't heard most of the listed ones and the ones I've heard of aren't mentioned. Maybe we live in different worlds?

There there was the Antichrist Sudam (title: 'antichrist', name 'Sudam') Webring (a ring of related web sites, each one pointing to the other) . This also was for November 2000 (it might have been mentioned in the list as expected in October 2000). Well, this antichrist only killed a few 100,000 people -- the 7-year tribulation has to be the worse thing that happens ever in the world (according to Jesus in Matthew 24:21).

 

[BobRyan]

I DO know who wrote this report on scripture --

me.

Dan 9:1-5 contains the 70 year timeline prophecy - no slicing and dicing -- no "inserting undefined gaps of time" into the timeline.

Dan 7 points to a 1260 year timeline "Times, Time and 1/2 time" - that are taken together and amount to 1260 years predicted for the dark Ages.

Dan 9 leading to the appearing of the Messiah - deal with the building of the wall and the city and also the time following until the Messiah.

456BC straight through to 27 AD "7 weeks and 62 weeks" still ONE contiguous group that is then followed by the 3rd contiguous segment - the last week.

ANY TIME you have the ENTIRE timeline lumped into ONE timeline as ONE number (70 weeks, 70 years, 1260 days, 2300 days...etc) it must ALWAYs be contiguous so that the single timeline reference continues to work as a timeline ruler.

obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

1829-1833​

Edward Irving, Henry Drummond, and John Nelson Darby develop the 'pre-Tribulation Rapture' theory of Christ's Return. Darby (Plymouth Brethren) promotes the idea as part of a dispensational division of history. Through the Bible notes of a lawyer, C.I. Scofield, the Irving-Drummond-Darby 'pre-Tribulation Rapture' theory spreads among Christians to become the dominant End Time view in most evangelical and pentecostal circles.

I don't recall Henry Drummond?? I teach the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. I show it from the Bible. All the books of the New Testament were written before AD0069 (not after 1829). In fact, here is my outlook, using three scriptures C.I.Scofield never used. {{in 1963 I married a nice Sister [in Christ] who had a Scofield. When Jesus came to get her in 1999, she promised to meet me when I die or at the pre-tribulation Rapture. Amen. (Sorry, she was dying then, so I didn't feel like telling her 'well some teach a post-tribulation rapture only, which at best is wierd' ) . }}

----------------------------------------

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

-----------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is some good pre-trib evidences:

http://www.invisionplus.net/forums/index.php?mforum=rij&showtopic=26

50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture

 

[antiaging]

You forgot this verse:
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Albert Barnes:

All things which are written may be fulfilled - Judgment had been threatened by almost all the prophets against that wicked city. They had spoken of its crimes and threatened its ruin. Once God had destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people to Babylon; but their crimes had been repeated when they returned, and God had again threatened their ruin. Particularly was this very destruction foretold by Daniel, Dan_9:26-27; “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.” See the notes at that passage.

John Gill:

For these be the days of vengeance,.... Of God's vengeance on the Jewish nation, for their rejection and crucifixion of the Messiah;

You'll find it a little more difficult here than :http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=94741

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


It is referring to the generation that will see the signs he spoke of. Those signs have not happened yet. That is the parable of the fig tree. Just like when you see the leaves it means summer is near, when you see the signs, then know it is near. The signs spoken of or future signs. They did not happen in AD 70.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

another version of the signs is in Matt. 24:29-31. They never happened yet.
It is the generation that will see the signs that Jesus was referring to.

Preterism contradicts so many scriptures throughout the bible, it is not even worth arguing about. It is simply incorrect.

Peter said the Earth and the works therein would be burned up.
Never happened yet.

 

[antiaging]

That is 100% correct!

ALL Bible prophetic timelines that are quantified are contiguous -- every single one without exception!.

In fact once you start slicing and dicing a numeric timeline such as the "70 year prophetic timeline" in Dan 9:1-5 OR the 70-7's timeline (490 year timeline) at the END of Dan 9 -- then the numeric ruler that it provides is made void.

Imagine having a 12 inch ruler with an undefined gap of space inserted into the middle. You could never use it to measure 1 foot!

So what then is the "excuse" used to slice/dice this section of scripture?

Now here is the truly sad part of the dispensational slicing of scripture in this case - EVERYONE agrees that the 490 year messianic prophecy found in Dan 9 is the MOST amazing - most blatant - most clear - most SPECIFIC Messianic prophecy in terms of TIME - predicting the exact time and nature of the work of the Messiah IN ALL of the OT.

YET the dispensational "slicing of Dan 9" carves it up in such a way that NONE OF THAT prophecy - no not one single year - is "allowed" to apply to the Messiah!!! How shocking! How sad!

in Christ,

Bob

The 70th week is written in the prophecy as being set apart from the first 69.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The "one week" in Dan. 9:27 is the 70th week. The first 69 weeks are before the death of Jesus, and the destruction of AD 70. Then it says desolations are determined. Get a concordance, look up desolations. It means the land is desolate of Jews, or the nation of Israel is scattered and not longer a nation during the time of desolations. All of those are mentioned before the 70th week, in 9:27. It just so happens that the desolation following AD 70 lasted a long time. From AD 70 to 1948.

The desolate at the end of 27 is when antichrist enters Jerusalem and sets up his throne there, 3.5 years before the end. The Jews will again be scattered out of the land. Like Jesus told them to flee when the abomination that makes desolate is set up by the antichrist.

 

[antiaging]

Here is some good pre-trib evidences:

http://www.invisionplus.net/forums/index.php?mforum=rij&showtopic=26

50 Evidences for the Pre-Trib Rapture

This entire discussion has been carried away from the original post.
Assuming the futurist point of view of the 70th week.
The main point of the OP was to show that The estate (legal position or title) that antichrist is to occupy is that of chief Roman pontiff. It is not a Seleucid estate. Dan. 11 goes to the end of the world. You need an estate that lasted from Julius Caesar to the end of the world to make Dan. 11 true. The estate of the Seleucid kings of Syria ended effectively when Tigranes took over the northern kingdom.
The only estate I see lasting that long is Chief roman pontiff. The same estate Caesar Augustus and Julius Caesar occupied.
I matched 4 kings in a row. Tigranes, Pompey, Julius Caesar and Augustus to those scriptures.
I say the raiser of taxes is Augustus and not one of the Seleucid kings of Syria.
The phrase "after certain years" in Dan.11:13 is an indeterminate amount of time. You need to compare the scriptures to historical kings and the events surrounding them, to see who it is referring to.
Daniel 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

I say the king with the great riches in Tigranes, the "after certain years" is a longer time break than most suppose, and the raiser of taxes is Augustus. And that makes the antichrist to be the last roman pontiff.
Who is roman pontiff now; the popes of rome.
You can trace the vile person in 11:21 to the end of Daniel 11 and to the end of the world; it is referring to the same man, the antichrist.
That estate must last till the end of the world. The estate of roman pontiff will last that long.

 

[Grasshopper]

Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

Who are "all the trees"?

Luke 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

John already told us the Kingdom was at hand:

Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

It is referring to the generation that will see the signs he spoke of. Those signs have not happened yet. That is the parable of the fig tree. Just like when you see the leaves it means summer is near, when you see the signs, then know it is near. The signs spoken of or future signs. They did not happen in AD 70.

Sure they did.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

Albert Barnes:

Upon the earth distress of nations - Some have proposed to render the word "earth" by "land," confining it to Judea. It often has this meaning, and there seems some propriety in so using it here. The word translated "distress" denotes anxiety of mind - such an anxiety as people have when they do not know what to do to free themselves from calamities; and it means here that the calamities would be so great and overwhelming that they would not know what to do to escape. There would be a want of counsel, and deep anxiety at the impending evils.
With perplexity - Rather "on account" of their perplexity, or the desperate state of their affairs. The Syriac has it, "perplexity or wringing of hands," which is a sign of deep distress and horror.
The sea and the waves roaring - This is not to be understood literally, but as an image of great distress. Probably it is designed to denote that these calamities would come upon them like a deluge. As when in a storm the ocean roars, and wave rolls on wave and dashes against the shore, and each succeeding surge is more violent than the one that preceded it, so would the calamities come upon Judea. They would roll over the whole land, and each wave of trouble would be more violent than the one that preceded it, until the whole country would be desolate. The same image is also used in Isa_8:7-8, and Rev_18:15.


Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

John Gill

and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by Hag_2:6 and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, Heb_12:26 whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ. The Jews themselves are sensible, and make heavy complaints of the great declensions and alterations among them, since the destruction of the temple; for after having taken notice of the death of several of their doctors, who died a little before, or after that; and that upon their death ceased the honour of the law, the splendour of wisdom, and the glory of the priesthood,


Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

John Gill

and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. The Arabic version reads it, "ye shall see", as is expressed by Christ, in Mat_26:64. Where the high priest, chief priests, Scribes, and elders, and the whole sanhedrim of the Jews are spoken to: and as the same persons, namely, the Jews, are meant here as there; so the same coming of the son of man is intended; not his coming at the last day to judgment; though that will be in the clouds of heaven, and with great power and glory; but his coming to bring on, and give the finishing stroke to the destruction of that people, which was a dark and cloudy dispensation to them: and when they felt the power of his arm, might, if not blind and stupid to the last degree, see the glory of his person, that he was more than a mere man, and no other than the Son of God, whom they had despised, rejected, and crucified; and who came to set up his kingdom and glory in a more visible and peculiar manner, among the Gentiles.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Gill

for your redemption draweth nigh; not the redemption of their souls from sin, Satan, the law, the world, death, and hell; for that was to be obtained, and was obtained, before any of these signs took place; nor the redemption of their bodies at the last day, in the resurrection, called the day of redemption; for this respects something that was to be, in the present age and generation; see Luk_21:32 but the deliverance of the apostles and other Christians, from the persecutions of the Jews, which were very violent, and held till these times, and then they were freed from them: or by redemption is meant, the Redeemer, the son of man, who shall now come in power and glory, to destroy the Jews, and deliver his people; and so the Ethiopic version renders it, "for he draws nigh who shall save you".

Albert Barnes

Your redemption draweth nigh - See the notes at Mat_24:33. This is expressed in Luk_21:31 thus: "the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" - that is, from that time God will signally build up his kingdom. It shall be fully established when the Jewish policy shall come to an end; when the temple shall be destroyed, and the Jews scattered abroad. Then the power of the Jews shall be at an end; they shall no longer be able to persecute you, and you shall be completely delivered from all these trials and calamities in Judea.
another version of the signs is in Matt. 24:29-31. They never happened yet.
It is the generation that will see the signs that Jesus was referring to.

No, an invention of dispies. "This generation" always refers to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking.

Preterism contradicts so many scriptures throughout the bible, it is not even worth arguing about. It is simply incorrect.

Then don't argue it.

Peter said the Earth and the works therein would be burned up.
Never happened yet.

John Owen
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.

Put away your Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye books and read some commentaries by men who lived pre-Darby.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Put away your Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye books and read some commentaries by men who lived pre-Darby.

1985: Tee Hee
1995:
2005: :laugh:

I use the KJVs NOT Lindsay, not LaHaye. I use the books of folks like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. I like the KJVs cause in 2 Thess 2:3 it says:

2 Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day* shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day* shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

*that day is the 'day of Christ' in 2 Th 2:2

Where as MVs are not as clear here:

T2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 (NIV = Today's New International Version /Zondervan, 2006/ ):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.[/FONT]This 'rebellion' isn't as easy to convince others what 'the departure' and 'the falling away' - the 'caught up' of 1 Thess 4:17 - the 'raptos' (Latin for the English 'caught up'). I HOPE i will still be alive so I can be there when we fall away from this old world of tribulation & woe ([FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind) right into the waiting hands of Jesus with my new body. :jesus:



[/FONT]

 

[peterotto]

Preterism contradicts so many scriptures throughout the bible, it is not even worth arguing about. It is simply incorrect.

That is how Dispys deal with those who disagree. You are simply not even worth arguing about.

How pathetic dispys have become.

 

[peterotto]

Luke 21:20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."

Who is ye?

Antiaging doesn't stick to his plain and simple interpretation. He keeps on skipping verses that don't fit.

 

[peterotto]

This entire discussion has been carried away from the original post.

Well let me ask again so we can stick to the topic. The 7 years of tribulation you speak of. Where in Revelation do you get it? Because there is no mention of the 7 year tribulation in Revelation.

There are two forty-two months period (11:2; 13:5), two 1260-day periods (11:3; 12:6) and one "time and times and half a time" (12:14), each adding up to 3.5 years. If these are counted consecutively , then they add up to 17.5 years, if they are concurrently , then each of these time periods are the same 3.5 years. Could you tell me how you get 7 year tribulation out of these verses? Which years go where in the 7 year tribulation?

 

[Grasshopper]

1985: Tee Hee
1995:
2005: :laugh:

I use the KJVs NOT Lindsay, not LaHaye. I use the books of folks like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. I like the KJVs cause in 2 Thess 2:3 it says:

2 Th 2:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes, for that day* shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sinne bee reuealed, the sonne of perdition,

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day* shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

*that day is the 'day of Christ' in 2 Th 2:2

Where as MVs are not as clear here:

T2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 (NIV = Today's New International Version /Zondervan, 2006/ ):
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.[/FONT]This 'rebellion' isn't as easy to convince others what 'the departure' and 'the falling away' - the 'caught up' of 1 Thess 4:17 - the 'raptos' (Latin for the English 'caught up'). I HOPE i will still be alive so I can be there when we fall away from this old world of tribulation & woe ([FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind) right into the waiting hands of Jesus with my new body. :jesus:

[/FONT]

I suppose I should have thrown in the name Thomas Ice for you Ed:

"I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism."

http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165

So now dispies are forced to say "apostasy" is actually a rapture. The absurdity continues.