70 weeks described in Dan. 11

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Indeed the "times of the gentiles" are not included at all in the 70 weeks (490 year Messianic timeline starting in the 5th century BC) that points us to the time of the Messiah.

Next.

GE
Yes! Then because that cannot satisfy people's curiosity they resort to 'futuristic' predictions about totally irrelevant fancies like some 'tribulation' of seven years etc.

 

[antiaging]

That is correct.

The fact is that no numeric timeline prophecy in all of scripture can be sliced and diced with undefined gaps of time "inserted" and still preserve the prophetic timeline of 70 years (as is the case in Dan 9) or the timeline of 490 years (70 weeks of years) as also in the case of Dan 9.

Obviously.

The OP asks no questions but simply assumes that the 490 years of Dan 9 are in some way mentioned in Dan 11.

then in a recent post the 1260 years of Dan 7 (also mentioned in Rev 11 and 12) - there we have the single span of 1260 years (the Dark Ages) mentioned again and again -- but just mentioning it - does not cause it to "happen over and over again".

It only happened once.

in Christ,

Bob

The 70 years in Dan. 9 are conscerned with the nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem. You can see that in Dan 9:24. Moreover it is referring to the time period going from the time when Dan. is under the reign of Medo-Persia till the end of the world when the everlasting righteousness is broght in.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Dan. 11 is also referring to what happens to Israel, and also Jerusalem during the same time period going from Medo Persia to the end of the world on into Dan. 12.
[chapter breaks are arbitrary]

So it is definite, the 70 weeks are described in detail in Dan. 11.
It is not just an assumption as you suppose.

Also, since all 70 weeks must happen on Israel as a people and on Jerusalem, they can only happen when Israel as a people are living in the land of Israel.
Israel was not living as a nation in the land of Israel from AD 70 till 1948, which is why the last week the 70th is separate from the other.
It says desolations are determined before the last week is spoken of. Those desolations lasted in history for over 1900 years. It ended when Israeli people again lived in the land as a nation in 1948, and later in control of Jerusalem, 1967.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The phrase "desolations are determined" separates verse 26 from verse 27 by over 1900 years. [The "one week" in 9:27, is the last and 70th week.]

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

antiaging:
"The 70 years in Dan. 9 are conscerned with the nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem. You can see that in Dan 9:24. Moreover it is referring to the time period going from the time when Dan. is under the reign of Medo-Persia till the end of the world when the everlasting righteousness is brought in."

GE
"The 70 years in Dan. 9 are ... referring to the time period going ... till the end of the world when the everlasting righteousness is brought in." "...the end of the world when the everlasting righteousness is brought in."

No; "everlasting righteousness" has been 'brought in' with Christ, by Christ, in Christ, "once and: for all"!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yes, and with Christ, by Christ and in Christ, 'the end of the world' is usshered in, and its being 'brought in', finished! 'The fulness of time' fully had come in Jesus Christ; we today, live, in the last days; we might say, in the very last day of the world! For what would we else have prayed, "Come Lord Jesus, yes come!"?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

antiaging:
"Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The phrase "desolations are determined" separates verse 26 from verse 27 by over 1900 years. [The "one week" in 9:27, is the last and 70th week.]"

GE
By what principle? Only by ignoring and contradicting the very thing you have quoted, Daniel 9:27, "And He (Christ) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week He (Christ) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He (Christ) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." Christ "finished" Himself having been sacrificed and in resurrection being offered that very thing here spoken of whereby the oblation shall cease!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards,
How do you get this: "Your point has Jesus committing the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION? Maybe it's all your American abbreviations I cannot make out. But I'm sure as stated here, it's not what BobRyan says! (If I find it impossible to disagree with BobRyan, I'm flabbergasted by what could cause you to disagree with him!)

 

[peterotto]

Those desolations lasted in history for over 1900 years. It ended when Israeli people again lived in the land as a nation in 1948, and later in control of Jerusalem, 1967.


The phrase "desolations are determined" separates verse 26 from verse 27 by over 1900 years. [The "one week" in 9:27, is the last and 70th week.]

Antiaging is date setting the end of the world. He belives, yet he won't admit, 2018 is the year. Antiaging believes a generation is equal to either 40 years or 70 years, if you take the plain and simple approach. That is, 1948 plus 70 brings us to 2018. The question for antiaging is, when 2018 comes and goes with no tribulation or return of Jesus for His saints, will he then leave the erroneous Dispensational theology? Time will tell.

 

[antiaging]

antiaging:
"The 70 years in Dan. 9 are conscerned with the nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem. You can see that in Dan 9:24. Moreover it is referring to the time period going from the time when Dan. is under the reign of Medo-Persia till the end of the world when the everlasting righteousness is brought in."

GE
"The 70 years in Dan. 9 are ... referring to the time period going ... till the end of the world when the everlasting righteousness is brought in." "...the end of the world when the everlasting righteousness is brought in."

No; "everlasting righteousness" has been 'brought in' with Christ, by Christ, in Christ, "once and: for all"!

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


The 6 events in verse 24 have not yet been fulfilled. They will be fulfilled at the return of Christ in the future, at the end of the age.

Israel as a nation, the Jews that accept Jesus as Messiah, will experience these events at Christ's return. As it says, "thy people and thy holy city". --Israel as a nation. Reconciliation was done on the cross, but Israel as a nation has not experienced this covering for sin. Everlasting righteousness has certainly not happened to Israel as a nation, nor for the rest of the world for that matter. It will happen when Christ returns and Satan is bound a thousand years. [Satan is only let loose for a brief season once more and the transgressors will be destoyed rapidly, at the end of the thousand years.-- no more sin after that.]

Verse 24 has yet to happen on Israel as a nation, Daniel's people.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Gerhard Ebersoehn: //How do you get this: "Your point has Jesus committing the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION?//

// ... in the midst of the week He (Christ) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations He (Christ) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, ... //

This (which isn't scripture) shows Christ causing the desolation of abomination (DoA)

The Bible says (would be nice ot know which version???)
//Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.//

Here is the way I read it:

"Daniel 9:27, interperted. 'Antichrist' is the one NOT MESSIAH mentioned in Daniel 9:26. This PRINCE's people destroy Jerusalem (Romans in AD0070). Messiah the Prince's people would be Jews, not Romans.

And he (Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Sorry Brother Gerhard Ebersoehn, you attribute future events of the Antichrist to past events of the Christ. That is bad theology, bad doctrine, and bad echatology.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Just getting to the basic point that "you can not slice up timelines inserting 1000's of years of undefined non-specific time gaps into them" is the incredibly modest point of "agreement" that I was looking for on this thread and in our case we seem to have that GE. So indeed -- that's one.

I am content with just trying to get people to come around on that one point - without even worrying about going on to more detailed points such as the exact year they choose to believe that the timeline starts or ends in predicting the coming of the Messiah.

That simple basic point alone - is controverted to the last breath it seems.

in Christ,

Bob


[\quote]

GE
Yes, a sad state of things. Strangest to me is WHY? What, could be the reason Christians cannot accept the 70-week prophecy does not apply to Christ? Not even while the Christian will ever admit all the Scriptures point to Him and in HIM, are fulfilled? WHY not, this most obvious of almost all prophecy?

Indeed what "have they lost" by simply allowing the greatest Messianic prophecy in all of the OT to "REMAIN INTACT" without abusing it to the point of "inserting 1000's of years of undefined space into iit" and thus destroying it's 490 year teimline.

What "element of theiir theology" would be missing"

What "benefiit" do they get out of "removing the Messiah from the Messianic prophecy of the 490 years"??

The result of taking out the 7 years at the END of the 490 years -- is to remove all that the Messiah DOES after the time of the Messiah is predicted to start at the end of the 483 years that preceed it.

And WHAT purpose does that serve for them???

That is what no one is explaining NOR are they explaining why they think this ONE TIMELINE should be sliced and diced with undefined gaps of time when such a thing CAN NOT be defended either here or with any other numeric timeline prophecy in ALL of scripture.

Imagine inserting "1000 of years of undefined length time" in the 3 days and 3 nights predicted or the 1260 years predicted or the 2300 years predicted or the 70 years of Jeremiah predicted or the (7 weeks and 62 weeks and 1 week) of Dan 9 OR of the 400 years of Genesis give to the "Amorites" -- NONE of these timelines will survive having 1000's of years of undefined time GAPS inserted into them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The 70 years in Dan. 9 are conscerned with the nation of Israel and the city of Jerusalem. ...
Also, since all 70 weeks must happen on Israel as a people and on Jerusalem, they can only happen when Israel as a people are living in the land of Israel.
Israel was not living as a nation in the land of Israel from AD 70 till 1948, which is why the last week the 70th is separate from the other.

1. ALL Scholars freely admit that the 490 year timeline prophecy perfectly predicts the coming of the Messiah - to teach the gospel and die for our sins. ALL of them start the timeline sometime future to Daniel -- some time in the days of either Ezra or Nehemiah. (Pick whatever point you will).

2. ALL scholars admit that THE significant aspect is THE WORK OF THE MESSIAH for mankind and ALL agree that IF you do not abuse the timeline and slice it into discontiguous segments - it runs out LONG BEFORE 70 A.D.

3. In your argument above you freely note that if the timline were to extend beyond 70AD we would have the problem of the Southern Kingdom (Judah ) no longer being in existence.

Admitting to these facts ALONE would convince the objective unbiased reader to then take on the task of trying to find the correct application of the 490 years IN that timeline that include the time predicted for the first coming of Christ.

We may debate the various ways to work out that solution - but how in the world could we start by simply slicing up the timeline with undefined GAPS of time inserted into it "as the inclination suites us" when we all know that NO such method IS EVER used in ANY timeline prophecy in ALL of scripture???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

//What "element of theiir theology" would be missing"//

Somebody guessed "the ability to predict the Second Coming of Jesus".

Wrong.

I believe Jesus when He said:
Mark 13:32-33 (KJV1611 Edition):
But of that day and that houre knoweth no man, no not the Angels which are in heauen, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.


While I do know the beginning eventand ending event, I know only the approximate time of the beginning of the gap. I sure don't know the time of the end of the gap - even Jesus doesn't know. Caveat: nothing precludes Jesus and us to know AFTER the even what the date was.

The gap between the end of the 69th Week of Daniel and the start of the 70th Week of Daniel is called the 'Time of the Gentiles". I also call it the "Church age" for it is when the Time line for the Jews is suspended until the 'fullness of the Gentiles", the Gentile Church. That is the start. I think the gap started when the Holy Spirit came down and the Jews rejected the stone of the corner: the Messiah Jesus. The 70 Weeks of Daniel are about Jews & the promises God gave them. The gap between the 69th and 70th week is about Gentiles.

God even promised Abraham, that all families of the Earth would be blessed in Abraham. This blessing comes through Messiah Jesus, is coming through Messiah Jesus, and will come through Messiah Jesus. The gap will end, the 70th week will start when Jesus comes to get His mostly Gentile church (includes some Messanic Jews).

I believe that the date of the start of the gap was just before Jesus Died on the cross, perhaps the day the 69th week ends. dates for this vary. I think it happened during the Passover Feast, AD 0033, but I understand variations of that might be correct also. I sure don't know when Jesus will come to get his mostly Gentile Church in the pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection.

Some say // There is no Rapture = silent/sneaky coming of Jesus for His mostly Gentile Church//

I agree. the event will be so noisy that the DEAD HEAR IT and wake up from the dead (an event called RESURRECTION). That is pretty noisy. I even have deaf friends whom I remind the first thing they will hear is either Jesus calling them & putting on a new body that isn't deaf OR if Jesus taries and they die: then the first thing that deaf Saint will hear is Jesus calling them out of the Grave.

Anyway, I don't doubt some are so sluggish as to believe that Jesus might show up after every saint gets tortured to death; why can't those who believe that believe that God has some wonderful plans for the mostly Gentile Church AND to fulfill the earth ownership promises of God to Abraham, Jacob, Yisrael, Judah, King David, etc?

I also have a writing that shows the plan for the largely Gentile Church was GOD's PLAN 'A'. God's plan for the Jews was God's PLAN 'B'. Will post on request. This post is around this board somewhere - keyword is FOUNDATION.

\o/ Praise Hasheem! \o/

\o/ Glory to the Lord ! \o/
​

 

[Ed Edwards]

//3. In your argument above you freely note that if the timline were to extend beyond 70AD we would have the problem of the Southern Kingdom (Judah ) no longer being in existence.//

The independent kingdom of Judah ceased to exist long before 70AD. The kings quit ruling in Judah right before the 70 CONTIGUOUS YEARS of exhile predicted by Jeremiah.
(Jeremiah didn't divide up his time-line like Daniel did).

 

[antiaging]

1. ALL Scholars freely admit that the 490 year timeline prophecy perfectly predicts the coming of the Messiah - to teach the gospel and die for our sins. ALL of them start the timeline sometime future to Daniel -- some time in the days of either Ezra or Nehemiah. (Pick whatever point you will).

2. ALL scholars admit that THE significant aspect is THE WORK OF THE MESSIAH for mankind and ALL agree that IF you do not abuse the timeline and slice it into discontiguous segments - it runs out LONG BEFORE 70 A.D.

3. In your argument above you freely note that if the timline were to extend beyond 70AD we would have the problem of the Southern Kingdom (Judah ) no longer being in existence.

Admitting to these facts ALONE would convince the objective unbiased reader to then take on the task of trying to find the correct application of the 490 years IN that timeline that include the time predicted for the first coming of Christ.

We may debate the various ways to work out that solution - but how in the world could we start by simply slicing up the timeline with undefined GAPS of time inserted into it "as the inclination suites us" when we all know that NO such method IS EVER used in ANY timeline prophecy in ALL of scripture???

in Christ,

Bob

It predicts His first coming. The 70th week is not included in that. It is the first 69 weeks that give a time table of His first coming. There is no exact timeline for the Second coming. The 70th week is involved in that.

All scholars do not admit that the 70 weeks ran out. What is predicted in 9:24 has not been fulfilled yet. It is future to when the 70th week happens. Many believe, as I do, that the 70th week is a future 7 year period. The reason being that all 70 weeks must happen on Israel as a nation and the city of Jerusalem as stated in 9:24. Israel was desolate and not a nation from AD 70 till 1948, which is why the 70th week could not happen for all that time. The AD 70 destruction follows after the death of Messiah, and the period of desolation [Israel not a nation and its people scattered] followed that. The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, and the desolate period is spoken of before the 70th week as stated in the prophecy.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The one week in 9:27 is the 70th week. It is separated from the other 69 weeks by the destruction of AD 70 and the period of desolation which lasted till 1948 or 1967 when the Jews again gained control of Jerusalem.

Jews returned to Israel after World War 2. Israel became a nation about 3 years later. War, in verse 9:26 could be a possible reference to WWII, since the desolation lasted till then.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR:
" ALL Scholars freely admit that the 490 year timeline prophecy perfectly predicts the coming of the Messiah "

GE
How much I liked your assumption you cannot possibly substantiate it!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Antiaging is date setting the end of the world. He belives, yet he won't admit, 2018 is the year. Antiaging believes a generation is equal to either 40 years or 70 years, if you take the plain and simple approach. That is, 1948 plus 70 brings us to 2018. The question for antiaging is, when 2018 comes and goes with no tribulation or return of Jesus for His saints, will he then leave the erroneous Dispensational theology? Time will tell.

GE

Or, a sooner Return! What then?!

 

[BobRyan]

//3. In your argument above you freely note that if the timline were to extend beyond 70AD we would have the problem of the Southern Kingdom (Judah ) no longer being in existence.//

The independent kingdom of Judah ceased to exist long before 70AD. The kings quit ruling in Judah right before the 70 CONTIGUOUS YEARS of exhile predicted by Jeremiah.
(Jeremiah didn't divide up his time-line like Daniel did).

Actually (As Moses and Jacob predict) the first time that they did not have a person in David's line ruling was in the days of the birth of Christ -- yet as Christ points out - "Israel existed" during his day.

But 70 AD brought in a very different situation. Hadrian actually made it impossible for a Jew to live in Israel for 500 years.

Pretty devastating!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

antiaging:
"The 6 events in verse 24 have not yet been fulfilled. "

GE
Not yet been fulfilled?! What then did Jesus become man for, suffered death and was resurrected???

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Christ, "MADE AN END OF SIN"!

 

[BobRyan]

//What "element of theiir theology" would be missing"//

Somebody guessed "the ability to predict the Second Coming of Jesus".

Wrong.

I believe Jesus when He said:
Mark 13:32-33 (KJV1611 Edition):
But of that day and that houre knoweth no man, no not the Angels which are in heauen, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.


While I do know the beginning eventand ending event,

Hint: The 490 years of Dan 9 predicts the first coming of Christ not the second (as all Bible scholars agree) and it can not be chopped into pieces.

I know only the approximate time of the beginning of the gap. I sure don't know the time of the end of the gap - even Jesus doesn't know.

There is no gap at all in the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 just as there is no gap in the 70 years nor in the 490 years nor between the 7weeks and the 62 weeks of the 490 years nor between the 62 weeks and the 70th week.

I.e -- this couldn't be any easier!

in Christ,

Bob