99.9% of all Catholics Going to Hell

When I first joined this site, I thought 'Baptist' was another word for Christian. Go figure.

 

I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. It has to do with "following Apollos".

I understood you to be saying:

"That any who do not follow Apollos are allowed to post ANYWHERE on a BaptistBoard is "grace"."

 

Dr. Bob, I would like to let you know that what you said to Grant was VERY uncalled for, and unneccesary. Catholicism has many beliefs that I, as a Lutheran from the LCMS do not agree with, but they have Jesus Christ in their hearts. How can you claim that most of them are condemned to an eternity in Hell when many people from all denominations are not saved? There are Baptists, Methodists, even Lutherans who do not hold Jesus Christ in their hearts. There are Catholics the same way, but I know for a fact that it is not more than 15% of them who aren't saved! Maybe even less! This sin you have comitted could have easily been omitted. It has unrighteous to claim that believers of Catholicism are condemned from the start, so rethink your ways, and apologize to the Catholics.
It was immature and unjust, so I hope you see to it that you ask for forgiveness.
God Bless,

Brady

 

Would you not say that that statement in itself is "uncalled for." Have you persoally interviewed one billion Catholics to see whether or not they have Jesus in their hearts. I have personally seen Catholics sacrifice chickens to a statue of Mary. That is idolatry, not Christianity. Every Catholic I have every personally witnessed to (over a hundred), with the exception of those on this board, not one has ever had a clue what it means to be born again, or to be saved. Not even a house full of "brothers" had any understanding of Biblical salvation. They were all lost. None of them "had Jesus in their heart. The 99.9% is very accurate in my experience in over 30 years of witnessing to all kinds of Catholics of vatious Catholics from different backgrounds.
Your statement is very unfounded. It is a judgement. You have JUDGED the heart, just as much as Dr. Bob has, and even worse. You have made the wrong judgement. You have assumed these poor lost people are saved, when indeed they are lost and in need of a Saviour. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. Because of your judgement, you will falsely conclude that there is no need of evangelism. After all, why carry out the Great Commission to one billion people if the one billion are already saved??
DHK

 

DHK:

Anyone sacrificing chickens to a statue of Mary is not Catholic following the teachings of the Catholic Church. They would have been practicing pagans, possibly mixing some aspects of Christianity into their belief system.

From reading Protestant history books on Christianity, I understand in Africa after Baptists and other missionaries give bibles and instruct people in their faith, if they leave, many people tend to not follow what would be considered a Christian faith, but start mixing in their paganism.

They call these "African Independent Churches".
According to non-Catholic Eerdman's Handbook to the History of Christianity most of these African Independent Churches are usually Bible-centered. They occur where the whole Bible is available in the local language.

The independent churches seek direct continuity with the New Testament period. They also often continue traditions from pre-Christian religion and culture. The independent churches reflect the concerns most pressing to local people, concerns which were not necessarily those picked out by missionaries.

Many have polygomy, witchcraft, charms fetish etc. as well as breaks with tabacco, alcohol, and gambling. They are frequently mixtures of Christian and traditional elements.

Ongoing support (not giving them a bible alone) is necessary to keep the Christian faith with any group of people. People interpret those Scripture any which way if not guided by the Church, and without enough clergy to instruct and teach.

God Bless

 

That's also (I'm guessing) Santeria. It certainly isn't Catholicism.

If your friend who's butchering chickens claims to be a Catholic, I hope you'll let his pastor know what's going on so that your friend can receive some appropriate (and apparently extremely badly needed) Christian correction!

I promise I'll do the same if I encounter anyone acting similarly while claiming to be Baptist.

Mark

 

I agree that Christians are to be found not only in those external church communions which teach the Word of God purely in every part (The Evangelical Lutheran Church), but also where, along with error, so much of the Word of God still remains that men may be brought to the knowledge of their sins and to faith in the forgiveness of sins, which Christ has gained for all men.

However, to state some specific figure for any Christian denomination is not scriptural. We simply urge all Christians to leave heterodox denominations (e.g. Baptist, Roman Catholic, etc.) and join a church-body where the gospel is purely taught and the sacraments rightly administered.

 

Anyone sacrificing chickens to a statue of Mary is not Catholic following the teachings of the Catholic Church. They would have been practicing pagans, possibly mixing some aspects of Christianity into their belief system.
</font>[/QUOTE]I know it is not the official teaching of the Catholic Church as per the Catechism. But it is sanctioned by a Bishop. It is not much different than what goes on here near Lac Ste. Anne, once a year, a Lake about 20 miles from here. It has special supposedly "healing powers" because of the Great White Spirit of the aboriginals many years ago. Yet hand in hand the Catholis and aboriginals go to be healed and spiritually blessed by dipping themselves into this water, now blessed yearly by a Catholic priest. Here we have Catholicism and the pagan Aboriginal religion working together supposedly worshiping the same God ("the Great White Spirit"?)
What God do you worship?

http://www.peace.mb.ca/00.Native/nlrnz07.htm

http://www.lsap.omi.ca/

 

Some Catholics leaders in the past and may also be today as messed up as our Binny Hinn. Yet we would not want someone to judge non-Catholicism based on that idiots fraudulant ministry.

 

Anyone sacrificing chickens to a statue of Mary is not Catholic following the teachings of the Catholic Church. They would have been practicing pagans, possibly mixing some aspects of Christianity into their belief system.

From reading Protestant history books on Christianity, I understand in Africa after Baptists and other missionaries give bibles and instruct people in their faith, if they leave, many people tend to not follow what would be considered a Christian faith, but start mixing in their paganism.

They call these "African Independent Churches".
According to non-Catholic Eerdman's Handbook to the History of Christianity most of these African Independent Churches are usually Bible-centered. They occur where the whole Bible is available in the local language.

The independent churches seek direct continuity with the New Testament period. They also often continue traditions from pre-Christian religion and culture. The independent churches reflect the concerns most pressing to local people, concerns which were not necessarily those picked out by missionaries.

Many have polygomy, witchcraft, charms fetish etc. as well as breaks with tabacco, alcohol, and gambling. They are frequently mixtures of Christian and traditional elements.

Ongoing support (not giving them a bible alone) is necessary to keep the Christian faith with any group of people. People interpret those Scripture any which way if not guided by the Church, and without enough clergy to instruct and teach.

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Kathryn

You have a very “western” view of Christianity in Africa

Since you used the present tense in your post, I will assume that you think that is it as predominant practice among Christians in Africa

I hope you did not imply that Africans Christians need the tutelage of the missionaries that brought them the gospels (missionaries that happen to be from the West)


Few things needs to be clarified

The Christian faith is not a matter of tradition, (i.e. my father was of such and such denomination and held such and such beliefs, so am I)

It is a mater of a personal and living relationship with Christ that start it the New Birth

When this central fact is forgotten, what is produced is nominal Christianity
And nominal Christians invariably will mix up their religious “Christian” traditions with other values and practices present in their cultures

For some nominal Christians (and it is far from being the majority) in Africa, it will be some of the very things you mentioned (i.e polygamy, witchcraft, charms fetish etc. as well as breaks with tobacco, alcohol, and gambling)
For some nominal Christians in the West, it will be secular humanism, eastern mysticism, acceptance of immoral behavior like homosexuality, horoscopes, “white” magic, spiritism and all the Miss Cleo you could thing about and so on

Nominal Christians no matter where they are tend to be syncretist since their faith has no real roots

However, genuine Christians in Africa are well aware of the danger and the unbiblical nature of polygamy, witchcraft, charms fetish etc. as well as breaks with tobacco, alcohol, and gambling.

They no need support or mentoring from Western missionaries (or from anywhere else) in general


I am a second generation Christian in my family and like most Born again Christians in Africa, I was not led to the Lord by a missionary (Western or other), nor were my parents or the people that preached the gospel to them
99.999 % of genuine conversions are the result of what you will call “native” evangelism


Now, Africans, just like Koreans are sending missionaries in the West
(As a Student in Belgium, I did much the work of a missionary without the official title)

What is my point?
“The natives” if they are genuine Christians do not need babysitting no matter where they are located (In Africa or in the West). The “locals” are the best suited to help the “locals”

(this does not exclude the need of proper training and more outside presence in non “Christianized” countries but one must remember that the only countries in Africa for example that would qualify are Muslims countries and even there, the locals are critical in training and sustaining any work)

The nominal Christians no matter where they are located (In Africa or in the West), do not need additional “support”, they need to come to the true knowledge of Christ
Then they will realize that whatever baggage they where bringing along with their nominal Christianity (whether secular humanism, eastern mysticism or animism) is in total contradiction with the Gospel of Christ


Such is the universal message of the Gospel for all times and all generations

Sincerely,


Alain

 

Bob to Dr. Carroll of EWTN -

Dr Carroll replies

Continued responses from Warren Carroll

 

Two words: Invincible ignorance.

Catch up on official church doctrine.

 

Dear DHK,

Perhaps you're thinking of different articles other than the ones you linked? I don't see any mention of chicken-butchering in either one -- or of anything "not much different" than chicken-butchering for that matter. (I did see a mention of some folks drying meat, presumably to preserve it to eat -- do you think making beef jerky is akin to chicken sacrifices?)

Nor, in either article, did I see any mention of a "Great White Spirit," nor of anyone expecting healing because of a "Great White Spirit" (or a spirit of any other color, great or small, except the Holy Spirit.)

Instead, your first article speaks of a lake where Native Americans once gathered in the summer to hunt buffalo. (What a surprise -- finding buffalo near a water source). It speaks of Christian missionaries who "quickly gained a reputation for bravery, goodness and holiness. In plagues, they cared for the sick and comforted the dying, asking nothing in return. They stood between warring parties, with bullets whistling around them, and brought an end to the fighting. They preached the Gospel everywhere, and many came to believe in Christ." (Which part of that troubles you? Or is it just that they were Catholic?)

It goes on to say that nowadays a bishop (presumably a Catholic one) "blesses the waters of the lake. These waters are to recall the new life received in Baptism, and to be a source of blessing for all the people. After this simple prayer, hundreds of the faithful, from the aged to little children, wade into the blessed water or immerse themselves in it. The occasion is solemn and prayerful and yet fulled with the joy of children splashing in the water. Not only is the water seen as a spiritual sign of renewal and life, but many people have testified to having received healing in it as well." (So, we have folks prayerfully recalling their baptisms, and some asking God for healing. Not a "White Spirit" in sight.) The "sobriety pledge," which is next mentioned, should surely warm the hearts of all Baptists of the non-imbibing sort.

Your other article gives a nice account of the themes of the gathering in recent years -- horrible, pagan themes!!!! Things like:

1997: Faith in Jesus Christ (eek!)
1998: Hope & the Holy Spirit (those heathens!)
1999: I will never forget you my people (Isaiah 49) (Oh no!)
2000: In this year of jubilee you shall return, everyone of you... (Lev 25:13) (Scandalous!)
2001: God said to Noah: "I am establishing my covenant with you and with your descendants after you..." (Genesis 9:8) (Shocking!)

It then provides the schedule of events for this year -- let's see, lots of Masses in various languages, morning prayer, anointing of the sick (a la the Epistle of James), stations of the cross (recalling our Lord's death and resurrection). No chickens being snuffed, no white spirits -- nada, zilch, zippo.

Actually, it sounds like a very nice event. Maybe I'll go next year.

Mark H.

 

Bob --

You seem to be doing a great disservice to both Dr. Carroll and to the truth in your recent post. You appear to have attributed a large quotation from your own question to Dr. Carroll, and claimed it was in fact part of his answer and not part of your question. That appears to simply be false. Am I looking at the wrong question? Here's a link:

Bob's question and Dr. Carroll's answer

You also have gutted Dr. Carroll's actual answer by omitting the following:

I hope I'm missing something, or that you were just being sloppy in your quotations. But using the search function at the EWTN website, I simply can't find the language you try to attribute to Dr. Carroll in any of his statements -- they look to be your own words. If so, please acknowledge them as such. If I'm missing something, please point me to it.

Mark H.

 

I deliberately clarified that Catholics sacrificing chickens was done in a third world country. The last time I checked Canada wasn't a third world country yet. It is progressing at about the same rate America is toward that direction with the amount of abortions, homosexual unions, divorce rates, etc. that are happening. But thus far we are not there yet.

If you read my post you would have noted that I specified that there was a place about 20 miles from where I lived, i.e. Edmonton, Canada, where such pagan practices took place as I have described in the links provided. Apparently you did not read closely enough. Nor do you see what I see first hand.

I will spell it out for you.

--Notice how involved the “First Nations” aboriginal peoples have become in the celebration of the mass. These people are not necessarily Catholic. Stony First Nation aboriginals don’t give up their old way of life. It is syncretism. They adapt it to Catholicism.

--There is a reason why this lake was originally called “Spirit Lake” and why early traders called it “Devil’s Lake.” The syncrestic Catholics come along and combine the power of the devil with the power their “god” and work so-called “miracles of healing” by throwing some water on the Lake, and blessing it. That blessing is not from the God of the Bible.
DHK

 

Hi DHK,

I'm still not following your argument. Perhaps it's because I'm not familiar with the "First Nations" tag, which I assumed was just a name attached to various Native American groups.

Anyhow, first you say:

So, here you're complaining because some of the folks who are attending a Catholic Mass might not really be Catholic? It's not like we check ID's at the door or anything -- everybody's welcome. Although we're certainly not responsible for the quirky beliefs of all who wander in, if they're not Catholic.

Next you quote your first article:

OK, so far so good. Then you comment:

Well, apparently it was called "Devil's Lake" because of its storms. Your article doesn't theorize about the reason for the "Spirit Lake" name -- although why it matters escapes me. Apparently it's now Lac Ste. Anne, which is fine by me.

Um ... who are we talking about here? "Real" Catholics, or the "not necessarily Catholic" folks you mentioned before? And what, in either of your articles, is the source for the rest of this diatribe?

Let's see ... the Catholics who "came along" were those missionaries -- you remember, the Gospel preaching ones who converted people to Christ? The lake has no "power of the devil," it just has bad weather that caused it to be called "Devil's Lake" by some early white pioneers. The "God" of Catholics is the "God of the Bible" -- and I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that when the Bishop says a prayer of blessing over the water, he says it in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. (Sound familiar? Check Matthew's Gospel.)

And if God chooses to make this an occasion for healing some folks, I say that's fantastic. It sort of reminds me of Naaman in 2 Kings. Or did you think the "God of the Bible" couldn't use water as an occasion for healing?

I've got to say, DHK, that I've read your articles closely, and you're seeing things that just aren't in them. Do you have a particular bone to pick with these "First Nations" folks for some reason? As far as I'm concerned, Catholic or not, if they want to come to Mass they're welcome (and so are the rest of you).

Mark H.

 

I would like to add to Mark's post about what you said DHK:

If the Lake did belong to Satan as you claim, Catholic clergy do not like to leave “things” like lakes, or springs or people to Satan.

They prefer to call on the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirt, and ask God to Sanctify what belongs to Him. Jesus Christ Himself sanctified the water when He used it in His own Baptism. Did some Greek pagan group before Jesus' Baptism think those waters belonged to them?___could be.

God causes “all things” to work together for good, to those who are called according to His purpose. God works through “things” for His own purposes___grace.

God Bless

 

An interesting hypothesis. Then where would you put these three teachings on the very subjects that if you do not belong to the Catholic Church you will definitely go to hell?!

 

DHK, I'm surprised at you.

Don't you know there is only one God?