A Balanced Calvinism

[preacher4truth]

Wrong.

The "it" in John 6:65 is speaking of coming to Christ. I know this because the Greek for "it" (which is not actually in the text as a separate word) comes from the verb "to be" (translated in the ESV as "is"). The being verb is in the 3rd person singular and refers back to "is able" which is also 3rd person singular.

The word in v. 63 you want "it" to point to (words) cannot be what it is referencing. It in v. 65 is singular and words in v. 63 is plural.

Frankly, you could not be more wrong about this if you tried.



Wrong.

The word at the beginning of v. 65 is not "therefore," it is "and." I know this because the conjunction κάι is the first word of v. 65.



Your entire premise here is wrong because you do not have John 6:63-65 correct.

The Archangel

Yep. This is exactly why he needs to get some training. It will (hopefully) take him from eisegetical, to exegetical analysis. As far as his belief "god" reacts to things because he doesn't know anything until it happens, well, that's another story.

 

[glfredrick]

Good words. Thank you.

The Archangel

I agree. I might add that the sinner who feels convicted (not knowing if he or she is of the elect -- how can we know that until we are adopted by God? -- comes because God has made that possible, both in Calvinism and Arminianism. Both have God's actions at the forefront of anyone who comes!

 

[glfredrick]

Here is your problem, you have your own set of definitions for words. I don't always do what I choose. If someone pulls a gun on me and asks for my wallet I will give it to him, but I did not choose to give it to him, I was forced or coerced.

If your definition of choice was true, then armed robbery would not exist. The lawyer for the robber could argue that he did not steal the money, the victim chose to give it to him.

This is why it is difficult to debate with you, you operate with an entirely different set of definitions from the rest of the world.

What if the man with the gun makes it a very desirable action? As in, you have a choice, you can give me your wallet and we'll both smile and walk away, or you can not give me your wallet and I will shoot you on the spot. Would it not be very desirable to give the wallet? Was not the life spared worth more than the discomfort of the moment?

 

[The Archangel]

I agree. I might add that the sinner who feels convicted (not knowing if he or she is of the elect -- how can we know that until we are adopted by God? -- comes because God has made that possible, both in Calvinism and Arminianism. Both have God's actions at the forefront of anyone who comes!

Yes. I would agree.

The Archangel

 

[Amy.G]

Baloney.

The therefore refers to the fact that they don't believe, and thus, are not His, and consequently won't and can't come to Him.

His sheep hear His voice. Those that are not His sheep, well, don't.

For this reason, they don't come to Him.

God wasn't surprised they didn't reject Him, as you would have us believe, winman.

Your theology is error. God knows all.

You should truly get some schooling to dispell your errors and inabilities to properly see context.

Nice try. :thumbsup: No trophy.

You do realize that there are many well educated pastors and teachers that disagree with Calvinism right?

Don't give me the you're too uneducated to understand scripture line.

 

[preacher4truth]

You do realize that there are many well educated pastors and teachers that disagree with Calvinism right?

Don't give me the you're too uneducated to understand scripture line.

I never gave that to you, that was for winman. And I never said uneducated, by the way, so get off your high horse. winman is the one who said he hasn't had training, thus I suggest school for him.

You do realize that many well educated pastors and teachers and laymen disagree with your arminianism right?

My only argument to you was your apples/oranges error. :thumbsup:


I won't limit God like the arminians do.

 

[Amy.G]

I never gave that to you, that was for winman. And I never said uneducated, by the way, so get off your high horse. winman is the one who said he hasn't had training, thus I suggest school for him.

You do realize that many well educated pastors and teachers and laymen disagree with your arminianism right?

My only argument to you was your apples/oranges error. :thumbsup:


I won't limit God like the arminians do.

You quoted me in your post, so I assumed it was directed to me to get some schooling. (check post #15)

And I am not an Arminian. I do not believe you can lose your salvation.

Don't tell me to get off my high horse! You know I ain't afraid to fight ya!

 

[preacher4truth]

You quoted me in your post, so I assumed it was directed to me to get some schooling. (check post #15)

And I am not an Arminian. I do not believe you can lose your salvation.

Don't tell me to get off my high horse! You know I ain't afraid to fight ya!

That's the only point you reject. Arminianism limits God.

You don't have to be skeerd to git whooped. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

That's the only point you reject. Arminianism limits God.

You don't have to be skeerd to git whooped. :laugh:

I don't really know if it's the only point I reject. I haven't studied it, but I do know that Arminians believe in loss of salvation. Arminians may limit God, but I don't. I believe God can create any kind of creature He wants. Even one with a free will.

 

[quantumfaith]

That's the only point you reject. Arminianism limits God.

You don't have to be skeerd to git whooped. :laugh:

pft,

That is simply your "opinion" that arminianism limits God, in fact, arminianism simply sees God's expression of His Sovereignty differently than do you. So I would ask that you not be condescending in that respect. Disagree yes, state your position yes. But please dont be condescending and pejorative to other believers that feel differently than you and who have been a member of the family of believers as long as you. Respect, disagree, but respect your brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I don't know of any texts that support the common idea of Free Will.

I think a search for balance between the two is a wild goose chase.

Respectfully, I think the pursuit of the Loch Ness Monster is a far more fruitful use of time.

What the Bible teaches is that men make choices. That does not mean that he has libertarian free will.

Thanks for your comments.
Whether you find Free Will in the Bible, or indeed anywhere else, will depend on what you think it is.

His ability to come is wholly dependent upon God's drawing.

Jesus said "None can come to me except my father draw him."

Who comes?

The ones the father draws.

John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

How many of the ones that the father draws will come? ALL of them.

Who doesn't come? Those that the father does not draw.

May I ask you a few questions in order to understand your position a little better?

I understand that you are Pastor of a church. In your preaching, do you ever tell folk to trust in Christ for salvation?

If someone comes to you asking how he can become a Christian, what do you tell him?

You rightly quote John 6:44 & 65 in support of man's inability to come to Christ. Do you think this inability is absolute or moral? An absolute inability is like me not being able to fly. A moral inability is like an alcoholic not being able to stop drinking, or a compulsive gambler not being able to stop betting.

BTW, for the avoidance of any doubt, I am what is called a Five Point Calvinist, just as Spurgeon and Bunyan were, though I am not an unreserved fan of Calvin.

Steve

 

[Winman]

What if the man with the gun makes it a very desirable action? As in, you have a choice, you can give me your wallet and we'll both smile and walk away, or you can not give me your wallet and I will shoot you on the spot. Would it not be very desirable to give the wallet? Was not the life spared worth more than the discomfort of the moment?

You have thrown away common sense.

Put it to the test, go rob someone with a gun and then tell the judge you simply enabled the victim to make a choice to give you his wallet.

I'd love to see how this argument would work for you in court.

 

[glfredrick]

You have thrown away common sense.

Put it to the test, go rob someone with a gun and then tell the judge you simply enabled the victim to make a choice to give you his wallet.

I'd love to see how this argument would work for you in court.

It does not surprise me that what I said makes no sense to you.

The argument would work very well in court, and we'd see yet another "choice" made. The Judge, operating under a view of the law (instead of personal choices) would "chose" to sentence the gunman to whatever the law dictates for his crime. It is within the realm of possibility that the judge could show mercy and simply let the robber off the hook, or even that the judge could show grace and reward the robber for his actions, but the most likely "choice" of the judge would be to fulfill the law and sentence the criminal.

Now, let's take a look at this allegorical picture in light of Scripture. God, supreme law giver and just judge, has a law that states most emphatically, "he who sins, dies." God cannot just "set aside" that law, for to do so makes God a liar, so indeed, the man (person) who sins, dies. In this, all humanity is without hope, for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." and "the man who says he has no sin is a liar..." We have sinned, and the penalty for our sin is death.

Where in this scenario comes a man, who simply petitions the just judge and receives not just mercy (his life) but also grace (a reward for actions that are un-deserving)? The sinner can petition God all he or she wishes, but they remain sinners, and the penalty remains death.

BUT... The Judge IS a just judge, who both loves and has mercy, and more so, grace. In order to not become a liar and violate the tenets of supreme law -- literally the fabric of the entire universe, sustained by the Word of this Just Judge -- the Judge Himself seeks to make a way to pay the penalty for those who have sinned -- their ONLY hope! And, so the Judge sends His only begotten Son, "who when the time was right was born of a woman, under the law..." to come to "set the captives free..." and "He who did not sin, became sin..." on behalf of all those who the JUDGE had previously written into His book of Life before the beginning of time.

When coming forward for sentencing, the Just Judge applies the substitutionary sacrifice of the Son in place of the condemned man and the condemned man is not only granted mercy -- left to live -- but also finds the full grace of the Just Judge and is "adopted" into the family of the Judge and give full rights as a son of the Judge, including an abundant life in the here and now and a new, glorified, eternal life in the true life to come.

Without the defeat of death, without the Just Judge finding a way to pay the death penalty for all those listed in the Book of Life, there is no hope, for the sinner cannot simply petition the judge and walk off free and blessed. It is the SOLE decision of the Judge as to whether to enact His mercy and grace -- not of the sinner.

 

[preacher4truth]

Aw shucks I got a pft from qaf. This has been your condescending attitude toward me since the time I suggested you may want to actually open your bible and get the answers versus when you didn't and misquoted it and embarrassed yourself. This is you proving exactly as to why Paul warned Timothy to not be ashamed and to rightly divide the scriptures. This earned me a how dare I tell you to open your bible and expose your mistruth pm. :laugh: :thumbsup:

What do the proverbs say about those as you who can't receive a rebuke? (you'll have to actually open to it and see.) You should seriously check that out and answer it. I see it would greatly help you turn around or simply leave you where it says you are. :wavey:

Now concerning your error that arminianism doesn't limit God you'll need to actually open your eyes and see that in fact they do and have done so on here. Get back to me when you're mature and humble enough to accept rebuke and instruction.

 

[Mexdeaf]

It does not surprise me that what I said makes no sense to you.

The argument would work very well in court, and we'd see yet another "choice" made. The Judge, operating under a view of the law (instead of personal choices) would "chose" to sentence the gunman to whatever the law dictates for his crime. It is within the realm of possibility that the judge could show mercy and simply let the robber off the hook, or even that the judge could show grace and reward the robber for his actions, but the most likely "choice" of the judge would be to fulfill the law and sentence the criminal.

Now, let's take a look at this allegorical picture in light of Scripture. God, supreme law giver and just judge, has a law that states most emphatically, "he who sins, dies." God cannot just "set aside" that law, for to do so makes God a liar, so indeed, the man (person) who sins, dies. In this, all humanity is without hope, for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." and "the man who says he has no sin is a liar..." We have sinned, and the penalty for our sin is death.

Where in this scenario comes a man, who simply petitions the just judge and receives not just mercy (his life) but also grace (a reward for actions that are un-deserving)? The sinner can petition God all he or she wishes, but they remain sinners, and the penalty remains death.

BUT... The Judge IS a just judge, who both loves and has mercy, and more so, grace. In order to not become a liar and violate the tenets of supreme law -- literally the fabric of the entire universe, sustained by the Word of this Just Judge -- the Judge Himself seeks to make a way to pay the penalty for those who have sinned -- their ONLY hope! And, so the Judge sends His only begotten Son, "who when the time was right was born of a woman, under the law..." to come to "set the captives free..." and "He who did not sin, became sin..." on behalf of all those who the JUDGE had previously written into His book of Life before the beginning of time.

When coming forward for sentencing, the Just Judge applies the substitutionary sacrifice of the Son in place of the condemned man and the condemned man is not only granted mercy -- left to live -- but also finds the full grace of the Just Judge and is "adopted" into the family of the Judge and give full rights as a son of the Judge, including an abundant life in the here and now and a new, glorified, eternal life in the true life to come.

Without the defeat of death, without the Just Judge finding a way to pay the death penalty for all those listed in the Book of Life, there is no hope, for the sinner cannot simply petition the judge and walk off free and blessed. It is the SOLE decision of the Judge as to whether to enact His mercy and grace -- not of the sinner.

Excellent. This would also parallel the story of the "prodigal son" also. Just finished reading MacArthur's 'A Tale of Two Sons' and the illustration of the Father's forgiveness to (and magnanimous reception of) his undeserving- and unsuspecting- son is awe-inspiring. It is the Father's choice to show grace, not the son's choice to receive it.

 

[charles_creech78]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. There have some things been said on the post that I don't agree with.

For one choose to save some and not other. I don't believe he does that. (Reason) God is no respecter of persons! To be clear in 2pe 3:9 its not his will that any of us perish! Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The saved are the elect so in this verse it is talking about anyone who calls on his name. 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Why then are some not saved? Because unbelief! Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? What report did they not believe? Jesus Christ : Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? They have no excuse!

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Who has heard of the father?

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. All have heard of the father but not all have obeyed the the truth! Gods not going to choose some to go to heaven then the rest would have a excuse to say to him well you did not choose me?
Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. God bless.

 

[Mexdeaf]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. There have some things been said on the post that I don't agree with.

For one choose to save some and not other. I don't believe he does that. (Reason) God is no respecter of persons! To be clear in 2pe 3:9 its not his will that any of us perish! Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The saved are the elect so in this verse it is talking about anyone who calls on his name. 1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Why then are some not saved? Because unbelief! Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? What report did they not believe? Jesus Christ : Joh 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
Joh 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? They have no excuse!

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Who has heard of the father?

Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. All have heard of the father but not all have obeyed the the truth! Gods not going to choose some to go to heaven then the rest would have a excuse to say to him well you did not choose me?
Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. God bless.

None of these verses refute the doctrines of grace- God bless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Martin,
In reference to jn 6:37-44 you said this;

There is one verse in which the two positions are actually side by side.

No,,,, not at all. In this section the teaching of grace demonstrates how God works to will and to do of His good pleasure.The "two sides" or two positions are not blended as they are mutually exclusive.
Those given by the Father do come.They come because God has made them willing,otherwise they would never come,
When we rejoice that they savingly come we understand that it is only the work of God that accomplishes this great salvation.
We do not have to somehow squeeze in man,and his supposed contribution,or anything he does, as if this is the key to salvation or we who believed are somehow able to figure out what others who perish could not.

7For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

 

[quantumfaith]

Aw shucks I got a pft from qaf. This has been your condescending attitude toward me since the time I suggested you may want to actually open your bible and get the answers versus when you didn't and misquoted it and embarrassed yourself. This is you proving exactly as to why Paul warned Timothy to not be ashamed and to rightly divide the scriptures. This earned me a how dare I tell you to open your bible and expose your mistruth pm. :laugh: :thumbsup:

What do the proverbs say about those as you who can't receive a rebuke? (you'll have to actually open to it and see.) You should seriously check that out and answer it. I see it would greatly help you turn around or simply leave you where it says you are. :wavey:

Now concerning your error that arminianism doesn't limit God you'll need to actually open your eyes and see that in fact they do and have done so on here. Get back to me when you're mature and humble enough to accept rebuke and instruction.

I will refuse in the future to interact with you, unless or until you can grow up a little bit. You are only exhibiting your lack of maturity and wisdom. Maybe you too one day will learn to be a bit more humble, something of which you accuse me.

I open my eyes, everyday. There are many things I have erred about in life, and many more to come. But this one thing, I do in fact refuse any chastisement from you in such childish, immature and prideful manners.

One day, we will both, KNOW the truth. On that day, I will, if wrong, consent, but never to the arrogance of which you throw personal assaults.

 

[webdog]

That's the only point you reject. Arminianism limits God.

You don't have to be skeerd to git whooped. :laugh:

...and calvinism telling God how He must be sovereign, and the needed steps to be such doesn't? Clearly the "limiting God" is in the eye of the beholder.

Another point I (and I believe Amy) rejects is the view God looks down through the corridors of time to see results (foreknowledge as defined by arminianism).