A Baptist History Question

Ebay seems to have a regular circulation on broken up sets of them. At the time of this posting, a bid of $17 stands with an hour left in the auction.

link to Ebay search

(the direct link did not work. This should take you to the search page. Just choose "books" and type in "Foxfire")

How many did they have in that set by the end? I had the set up to number eight. I enjoyed the log cabin building and the rifle making articles.

[ January 01, 2003, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Amazon also offers it used and new starting from $10.00.

lin k to Amazon

 

rsr, around here it was possum and swee'taters. Never had it; never wanted it. I killed a few possums in my time, but I had sense enough to sell the hide and throw away the meat!

A few more book recommends:
An Early History of Free Will Baptists (1727-1830); William F. Davidson; Randall House Publications; 1974 - http://www.allbookstores.com/book/0892650370
Frontier Religion: Elder Daniel Parker, His Religious and Political Life; Dan B. Wimberly; Eakin Press; 2002 - amazon.com
Primitive Baptists of the Wiregrass South: 1815 to the Present; John G. Crowley; University of Florida Press; 1999 - http://www.upf.com/Spring1999/crowley.html

The links are given simply for info on the books. Check around for pricing before purchasing anything.

 

My volume of The Foxfire Book says it was first published as articles in the Foxfire Magazine. It does not mention a series of books. Is it possible I have a first copy of the foxfire tales taken from the magazine? Did the series of books follow later on?

Hmmmmm 100 year old possum...or was that just the recipe? I always thought possum was from Australia and New Zealand.....did some bloke bring it to America?

Cheers,

Jim

 

The opossum is, I think, the only marsupial found outside that world down under. And, like some of us more peculiar Baptists, found mostly in the south. Actually, I think it ranges over much of the south, central and eastern U. S., as well as some in Central and South America.

I was just thinking - we certainly don't have much to do on this New Year's day!! Think I'll go to the store for a Coke and a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.

 

Boy, I am going to have to quit playing carpenter to keep up.

Jim. These are the same books. Foxfire was a student magazine that grew in popularity, and difficulty to obtain. As a result the articles were gathered into book format.

As for possum, they are native to North America, a marsupial, and a really strange critter. I once had a pet possum, caught it when it was a baby, and turned it loose, but it just hung around, so I started feeding it. But I am with Robert though, wouldn't eat one unless I was on the verge of starvation.

Robert, I have to agree on some levels about Dorgan's work. It does seem that we obscure Baptists types are completely ignored, ridiculed, etc. by mainstream Baptist authors/press. I just wish he had gone a bit deeper. I like Howard, really nice fellow, but I do wish he had gone deeper. His sympathy for his subjects has advantages and disadvantages. He does, however, treat his subject kindly, perhaps more than anyone else could or would.

Bro. Glen. I was thinking about a collection of URLs to online Baptist History sources and a select bibliography of history resources as well. It would be a useful thing to do, but would be time consuming. Perhaps I will give it a tackle later in the winter.

Jeff.

 

How closely connected are Primitive Baptists and Landmark Baptists? I am trying to categorize myself if I were living in the USA.

Jeff, you are prolly familiar with an old professor of mine from Kentucky, Dr. C.D. Cole. It was through him I was introduced to the Landmark idea, and suppose myself to be a landmarkist of sorts.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I like the way you worded this. That was what I was looking for and couldn't think of when making that post. That is exactly what I found refreshing in Dorgan's work - he obviously had not ignored them, neither did he ridicule them. But, yes, probably overly symphathetic at times.

Are you thinking of adding the collection of URL's to your site? Sounds like a great idea. Course it's easy for us to agree, since you're doing all the work! Well, I'm off to the store; can't keep back my chocolate, peanut butter, coke attack any longer.

 

Robert Vaughn wrote:

There are a couple that I haven't seen metioned here before that would be useful, if they can be found.

1st. Pilgrims of Paradox by Ruel Tyson and Dan Patterson, Smithsonian Institute Press. I think this was published in 1988 or there abouts. It is out of print. This one is not strictly a history but rather an ethnographic study. I should warn you that a good deal of their source material was provided by yours truly. Some of the names of people and churches were changed in this one to "protect the innocent." (Credit to Jack Webb's Dragnet for that line. ) All that material is now incorporated into the Southern Historical Collection at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

2. Sound of the Dove, by Beverly Patterson (wife of Dan Patterson above). This was published, if memory serves by the University of Illinois Press in the late 80s/early 90s, and I believe it is still in print. This book, and accompanying recording document hymnology of Appalachain Primitive Baptists. I am heard a time or two on their recording. A group of us sat down with her, at different times, and sang the entire Goble Hymn book for her tape recorder. She picked out a few of these for the recording. I think the only way to get the recording now is on cassette tape. It was originally produced so that one could get a tape or LP.

3. For a more purely historical approach, David Benedicts' 1848 work "History of the Baptists" is a classic, which seems to be generally ignored these days. I put part of it online on my website. I have an original copy of this one, and may eventually scan more of it to put online. I think it has been reprinted, but can't say this for certain.

There are several local associational histories of different Baptist denominations, of varying qualities out there. Some would have some limited appeal beyond their local geographic scope. I have several for this area (central Appalachia). Publications of local historical socities often will give a good sketch of individual churches, but those are difficult to track down, but are invaluable in preparing broader works.

I would like see a Baptist only work akin to Elmer Clark's Small Sects in America. I would like a fuller discussion of each group, how it came to be, their theological points of divergence, etc. Bro. Robert, you seem to be the man to create such a work. Hint,hint. I have a good bit on Appalachia, but when you are talking Texas, New York, or Illinois, I am ignorant.

 

Jim, caught your post before getting up to head out for that peanut butter cup. I don't think we could necessarily say that Primitive Baptists and Landmark Baptists are closely connected. The Landmarkers, in general, walked in connection with missionary/Southern Baptists for about 70 years longer than the Primitives (and some are still in the SBC). They do have very obvious interconnectedness on doctrines of church order, church authority, baptism, communion, etc., though, in my opinion, they sometimes get to the same place by a little different routes. A number of Landmarkers that embrace "Calvinism" eventually wind up among the Primitive Baptists. It seems that landmarkism as a whole was always less "Calvinistic" than Primitive Baptists, but were at least "Fullerites" initially. Many of them cast this off, and the American Baptist Association, for example, is very "anti-Calvinism."

 

Jim

I have heard of Dr. Cole, but don't know him. I attended secular universities, and wouldn't change a thing on that count.

Primitive Baptists and Landmarkers are similar, from what I understand of Landmarkers, but there are some differences. Primitive Baptists are typically referred to as hyper-calvinists, a term which I wouldn't agree with, but it is hard to fight. A few Primitive Baptists have a more traditional Calvinistic theology. All Primitive Baptists would accept TULIP as being accurate, but the devil is in the details. There are some differences in what TULIP truly means,and those differences can be problematic for some. I think most of the problems are in the ways ideas are conveyed rather than acutal differences.

There are differences in our sotierological (sp?) views with Landmarkers. We believe faith comes first, repentance second. As I understand it and I could be wrong, Landmarkers believe that repentance is first and faith second. Primitive Baptists are almost exclusively amillenialists in their end-time views, with a few partial Petrists. I don't think Landmarkers have a consistent view on this, but I could be wrong.

As for other differences, I think Primitive Baptists are more consistent from church to church in doctrine and practice than are Landmarkers. But this is my view, others might disagree.

At one time there was a group in Canada which we Primitive Baptists in America accepted as our equivalent there -- the Covanted Baptists of Canada, centered in Ontario. There may be a small remnant of them left, but last account I had of them they had fractured badly and were only occasionally holding services. In ENgland our equivanlent would be Gospel Standard Strict Baptists. I have been informed, but am imcompetent to say whether it is true or not that there is a German group which would approximate Primitive Baptists there. I have forgotten their name though. There are Primitive Baptist churches of varying orthodoxy in Kenya, Poland, Ukraine, India, and a good number in the Phillipines. Some of the more conservative Primitive Baptists in the U.S. wouldn't recognize any of these foreign groups, others would accept some, and not others.

In addition to these theological differences, there are considerable differences in practice. For example, Primitive Baptists don't have musical accompanyment with the hymns (so you don't have to worry about those drums with us. ). PB's don't have missionary boards, no Sunday schools, etc. We reject these as having no warrant in scripture. Others would disagree.

Hope it helps.

Jeff

 

Back to the wall paper. Don't cover me up when I come back.

Jeff

 

Hmmmmmm aside from the drums, I love the organ and piano in church services.

Dr. Cole was amil and calvinist to the core. He is gone now, but his booklets and sermons are still available. I am in touch with the church where he worshipped in the end.

I was taught that faith came before repentance, but that is a fine chain of events..in human terms, they prolly come so close together I wouldn't argue if someone said one came before the other. We sometimes confuse the divine acts and the human responses when we are draughting our theologies.

Cheers, and thank you,

Jim

Guess I am prolly a Baptist.....

[ January 01, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

Interesting, I was always taught that repentance precedes faith. Maybe you guys are "Campbellites" - they adamantly maintain that faith must precede repentance. Course they could just happen to be right for once (make that twice, they are right on the mode of baptism ). Seriously, however, I'm not sure that I understand it enough to know the difference. And if salvation is of the Lord, it all must come from Him anyway, and I'm sure He'll get them in the right order.

Another book recommend:
Local Baptists, Local Politics: Churches and Communities in the Middle and Uplands South; Clifford A. Grammich, Jr.; University of Tennessee Press; 1999 - http://www.netstoreusa.com/cubooks/157/1572330457.shtml
The main subject of this book is politics. But in this study, Cliff focuses on six small Baptist groups: Central Baptist Association, Duck River & Kindred Baptists, Old Missionary Baptists, Old Regular Baptists, Eastern District Primitive Baptist Association, and United Baptists. So the book provides some resources on these small, often undetected, groups of Baptists. These six groups were chosen over some others (such as Old Line Primitive Baptists) because for the most part they are confined to a small geographical area and tend to maintain consistent political characteristics within their groups.

 

Jim wrote:

There are some here who would probably dispute that. Some on here would dispute the sky being blue on a sunny day at none. I cheerfully ignore them, as I am sure they cheerfully ignore me.

That is one thing about the history forum that I appreciate -- it is a calm area, and rarely unfriendly.

Despite what most would contend, I suspect that all Baptists (and other CHristian denominations for that matter) have some mixture of truth and error in their doctrine and practice. As stated before the devil is in the details.

One scripture I try to think of daily is Paul's admonition that we see in part, know in part, and look through a glass darkly. I have never met another person, Primitive Baptist or otherwise I could completely agree with completely. But as long as the disagreements are done with kindness, I don't mind. One of these days, on the other side, it will all be made clear, and ultimately that is all that matters.

Sometimes I think we should discuss rules of decorum. One of ours is stated thusly: Only one member shall speak at a time, who shall rise from his seat and address the Moderator, and shall strictly adhere to the subject, in no wise reflecting on the person who spoke before, so as to make remarks on his slips, failings, or imperfections, but shall fairly state the case and the matter as nearly as he can so as to convey his light or ideas. I try to live by that standard. I don't always succeed, but I like that rule.

Jeff.

[ January 01, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

Robert can you give us the salient points of the book. Sounds promising.

 

I quite agree that the lads in here are very friendly, and that is refreshing. Part of my seminary training included public debate. Sometimes we had to defend the wrong side. This was hard and could easily provoke the opponent. Once the debate was over, we went to the kitchen area and enjoyed a cup of tea and good fellowship. This is how I like to deal with everything.

When I left seminary, I knew I had all the answers. Some fool thought up more questions and sidetracked my perfection. In ministry, I learned not to fight with anyone, but to listen carefully. If I can gently lead someone, then we both gain. If he/she decides that is not for them, then let it be.

Having said this, there are obviously some things on which there is no compromise, and on these I will stand firmly.....the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ as one example. We have too much in common to fight over the peripherals.

Now. Bob and Jeff: I have a book of sermons by T.T. Martin, of Heart's Harbor Tabernacle, Louisville, Ky....Can you tell me anything about him and his Baptist connection? The book is titled: Heaven, Hell and Other Sermons...Haven't a clue where I picked it up.

Cheers,

Jim