A Biblical Theology

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
With respect to your question, election and salvation are two different things. All elect are unsaved until they come to God in faith. 2 Tim 2:10 is irrefutable proof that the elect still need to be saved.

The "salvation" of which Paul speaks in that text is salvation from sin and doctrinal error. We know that for because:

A. Paul would never speak of an unbeliever as "elect" because the Bible everywhere represents all unbelievers as being non-elect.

B. If Paul was talking about "elect unbelievers" no amount of endurance on his part would make an iota of difference in whether they obtained their salvation or not.

C. Paul told Timothy in his first letter that by taking heed to himmself and his doctrine he would "both save thyself and them that hear thee" which obviously can't be talking about the new birth since Timothy and the flock he was left to oversee were already born again believers.

D. The context of II Timothy chapter 2 is pastoral care, not evangelism.

Mark Osgatharp

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Pastor Larry]

The "salvation" of which Paul speaks in that text is salvation from sin and doctrinal error.

What other kind of salvation s there in this context? Salvation (soteriology) is about salvation from sin. And Paul clearly states that eternal glory (heaven) comes for those who have it. There is no mention of doctrinal error here.

A. Paul would never speak of an unbeliever as "elect" because the Bible everywhere represents all unbelievers as being non-elect.

Bad argumentative technique. You assumed your conclusion and then discounted that which disproves it as talking about something. The Bible does not represent all unbelievers as being elect.

Eph 1:4 and 2 Thess 2:13 both talk about those who were elect from the beginning or foundation of the world. Since there were no believers then, there could be no elect. Yet God said there was.

2 Tim 4:10 talks about elect who need to come to salvation.

B. If Paul was talking about "elect unbelievers" no amount of endurance on his part would make an iota of difference in whether they obtained their salvation or not.

Why? His endurance in preaching the gospel was necessary because the elect are saved in response to the preaching fo teh gospel.

C. Paul told Timothy in his first letter that by taking heed to himmself and his doctrine he would "both save thyself and them that hear thee" which obviously can't be talking about the new birth since Timothy and the flock he was left to oversee were already born again believers.

Different context, differen topic.

D. The context of II Timothy chapter 2 is pastoral care, not evangelism.

Not really. The context is endurance in teh ministry. Paul is telling Timothy to endure.

In short, Mark, you assume you are right and then, when faced with a passage that contradicts you, you say it is talking about something else. That isn't a good way to debate or arrive at conclusions.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
How does this rout Calvinism?

Because Jesus said that those who don't believe are not His sheep while Calvinism says that some people who don't believe are His sheep.

You have two different words in mind. The word in Rom 5:11 is katalagge which means to put in friendship with. The word for atonement is the word-group hilaso-. It means to propitiate, or to appease.

"Atonement" is an English word that is used only once in the King James Version of the New Testament, Romans 5:11. As you have admitted,Romans 5:11 means "reconciliation." The English word "Atonement" meant reconciliaiton in 1611 when the King James Bible was translated and that is why they used it in Romans 5:11.

If you look at a common Websters College dictionary it will tell you that the first and obsolete meaning of "Atonemnt" is "reconciliation." "Atonement" is not a mistranslation of the text, it is simply a word whose meaning was modified in the English language after the King James translation was made.

With that understanding I can say that I definately believe in "limited atonement" - because the reconciliation is limited, according to Romans 5:11, to those who have received it.

Usually, the way it is put is that true believers don't "finally" fall away.

I might agree with that if by "finally" you mean "in the resurrectin".

That not withstanding, I have heard and read Calvinists who teach that believers don't fall away period. I heard a young Calvinist student from Southern Seminary preach in Ohio a couple of months ago and he said that if (among other things) you smoke cigarettes and don't feel bad you might not be saved. I have heard and read many such things from Calvinists.

By the way, the same man also said that Christ took on Himself the sins o"f all who would believe on Him", though some of the Calvinsts in this forum deny that Calvinism teaches Christ's death was not sufficient for all.

I'll stand with John who said He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Because Jesus said that those who don't believe are not His sheep while Calvinism says that some people who don't believe are His sheep.

You presented two different issues here. As I recall, without looking, Jesus said those who don't believe, don't believe because they are not his sheep. He is giving causation there.

"Atonement" is an English word that is used only once in the King James Version of the New Testament, Romans 5:11. As you have admitted,Romans 5:11 means "reconciliation." The English word "Atonement" meant reconciliaiton in 1611 when the King James Bible was translated and that is why they used it in Romans 5:11

If you look at a common Websters College dictionary it will tell you that the first and obsolete meaning of "Atonemnt" is "reconciliation." "Atonement" is not a mistranslation of the text, it is simply a word whose meaning was modified in the English language after the King James translation was made.

But we are not concerned with English words, since they are not what God inspired. We are concerned with the meaning of the words that God inspired, and what word best communicates that today.

With that understanding I can say that I definately believe in "limited atonement" - because the reconciliation is limited, according to Romans 5:11, to those who have received it.

That would be confusing though, since you are making up your own dictinary there

. Better to use words in their usual sense.

I heard a young Calvinist student from Southern Seminary preach in Ohio a couple of months ago and he said that if (among other things) you smoke cigarettes and don't feel bad you might not be saved.

He is right. You might not be saved. If you go and commit adultery, you might not be saved. There are any number of things we could plug in there. The statement itself is true. If you get up in the morning, you might not be saved.

By the way, the same man also said that Christ took on Himself the sins o"f all who would believe on Him", though some of the Calvinsts in this forum deny that Calvinism teaches Christ's death was not sufficient for all.

You would have to ask what he means by "took on Himself." Ask him if he believes more would have been required if God had chosen to save everybody. If he says "No" to that question, then he believes in the sufficiency of the atonement. But not having heard him I can't say. And yes, there are some Calvinists who differ slightly on that point. I disagree with them, as do most.

I'll stand with John who said He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Then we Calvinists will welcome you to our side, since we have believed that for centuries.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Cassidy;

Yes, thank you for proving my point. The reason they don't believe is because they are not of His sheep. His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

Yet they heard him tell them that.
Sometimes we have to look a little harder.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Notice that in verse 29 that they are already given to Him. Which means they were already His.
We are not His sheep until we are given.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
What other kind of salvation s there in this context? Salvation (soteriology) is about salvation from sin. And Paul clearly states that eternal glory (heaven) comes for those who have it.

You said that "eternal glory" means "heaven" but Paul didn't say that. Read the context. It is about eternal reward for faithfulness.

"And if a man also strive for the masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully."

But you said,

There is no mention of doctrinal error here.

By stark contrast, Paul said,

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Now don't tell me that some of the elect believers at Ephesus didn't need some deliverence from sin and error. Paul said they did.

Paul is telling Timothy that he endures all things to fight these heresies and deliver God's people from them, and that Timothy should do the same.

As a matter of fact, Paul told the elders at Ephesus that after he left wolves would enter in not sparing the flock and admonished them to "feed the church of God" which He has purchased with His own blood (Acts chapter 20).

The Bible does not represent all unbelievers as being elect.

But Jesus said, "But ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."

I say it is you who has assumed your conclusion and have tried to force Jesus' and Paul's words into it.

Eph 1:4 and 2 Thess 2:13 both talk about those who were elect from the beginning or foundation of the world.

This says that God chose believers in Christ as a class of people. Only those who actually believe are in Him and therefore personally elected.

2 Tim 4:10 talks about elect who need to come to salvation.

But what "salvation" did they need? If they were elect they were alredy believers because only beleivers are elect. The salvation they needed was salvation from doctrinal error as the context clearly shows.

Why? His endurance in preaching the gospel was necessary because the elect are saved in response to the preaching fo teh gospel.

.

If Calvinism is true, then no amount of obedience or disobedience on my part will make one ounce of difference in anything.

In short, Mark, you assume you are right and then, when faced with a passage that contradicts you, you say it is talking about something else. That isn't a good way to debate or arrive at conclusions.

What you have done is taken one sentence that sounds like it supports your philosophy and ignored the whole context.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[2BHizown]

Mark said: If Calvinism is true, then no amount of obedience or disobedience on my part will make one ounce of difference in anything.


This is antinomianism and is addressed by Paul in Romans 3, Paraphrasing, If we're covered with grace why dont we all just sin freely, isnt that o.k.?
We obey our Lord out of love for Him and great gratitude for all HIs mercy and grace, not because we live in fear of consequences if we dont!

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
Sometimes we have to look a little harder.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Notice that in verse 29 that they are already given to Him. Which means they were already His.
We are not His sheep until we are given.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

Thank you for, once again, proving my point for me.

vs 26, the ones who don't believe are not His sheep.

vs 27, the ones who are His sheep hear His voice and follow Him.

vs 28, and, after they hear His voice, and follow Him, He gives them eternal life.

vs 29, and they will never perish.

Just like we have been saying all along.

You argue in favor of Calvinism better than most of the Calvinists here!