A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS

[Darron Steele]

Now, it is time for you to think about some things. Per Colossians 1:18, the church is the body of Christ. Acts 5:14 examples how “believers were added to the Lord” (ESV) as now. God adds to the church per Acts 2:47b “the Lord added to them day by day those |who were being saved” (ASV|NASB). God adds all people who believe on Christ to Christ.

If you want to consider scripture, then consider the only 2 passages that tell us specifically how one gets into Christ ...

I have answered your passages.

Evidently, you have no answer for these, except to claim that they are `trumped' by others.

Your passages have been shown to be misinterpreted by you repeatedly, with the correct understandings of them presented to you. Further, they in no way `trump' these.

Scripture does not contradict itself. Scripture does not negate Scripture.

The passages I pointed you to tell how people get into Christ -- God adds them to Him when they believe.

Acts 2:41 "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls" (NASB). There is no contradiction with Acts 2:47 and 5:14. Those who received Peter's sermon had two independent consequences; they were baptized, and God added them to the church.

You `Acts 2:38' us a lot. It does not contradict the rest of Scripture. I quote: “Arrependei-vos, e seja batizado cada um de vós em nome de Jesus Cristo, para | remissão dos vossos pecados” (DA ERC|DA ERA). This more closely matches the form of the Greek in the New Testament whether you think it should be that way or not. Repentance is for remission of sins, and baptism is obligated from it. When we believe the Gospel, we repent of sin, and that belief in the Gospel gets us added to the Lord.

Acts 2:41 "So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls" (NASB). There is no contradiction with Acts 2:47 and 5:14. Those who received Peter's sermon had two independent consequences; they were baptized, and God added them to the church.

 

[Darron Steele]

If you compare I Cor 12:13, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."

I like this verse. It poses a problem for your perspective.

Per Mark 1:7-8, John the Baptist “preached, saying, `After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit’” (ESV). John baptized only with water, but Jesus Christ was going to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ would actually be involved with baptizing in both. John 3:22-3 says “After these things, Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized” (NASB). John 4:1 says “Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John” (NASB) and clarifies “although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were” (NASB).

Jesus maintained an aloofness to actually administering water baptism. He baptizes in His divine substance, and mortals baptized in a natural substance.

This is similar to the post-Crucifixion New Covenant. Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus portrayed as baptizing Christians in water; mortals are attributed the responsibility of baptizing in water throughout the New Testament. In the present New Covenant system, Christians baptize in water, while Jesus Himself does not. Jesus does, however, baptize in the Holy Spirit, as anticipated at Mark 1:7-8.

1 Corinthians 12:13 says “For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit” (ASV). All Christians are baptized “in one Spirit,” the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ does that, as anticipated at Mark 1:7-8.

Peter described an event of this. Acts 10:43b-4 says of Jesus Christ “through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.” (ASV). In recalling the event, Peter said “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized| in the Holy Spirit'” (ESV|ASV) at Acts 11:16. At Acts 15:8-9, he recalled it again "Acts 15:8-9, “And God, who knoweth the heart, |gave them evidence|, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV|NBV|ASV).

Per what Peter said, Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit and this was an instance of this. However, the baptism did not occur until after Peter saw this event. This occasion was of such importance it was rehearsed three times in Acts, and a major church decision was made on the basis of it.

Therefore, 1 Corinthians 12:13 works against your position. Christ baptizes us into the Holy Spirit when we believe, which is the same time He brings us into the church, per Acts 5:14 and 2:47.

 

[Darron Steele]

About the above -- rewrite last two paragraphs.

Per what Peter said, Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit and this was an instance of this. However, the water baptism did not occur until after Peter saw this event. This occasion was of such importance it was rehearsed three times in Acts, and a major church decision was made on the basis of it.

Therefore, 1 Corinthians 12:13 works against your position. Christ baptizes us into the Holy Spirit when we believe, which is the same time He brings us into the church, per Acts 5:14 and 2:47.

 

[BobRyan]

Good point. In Matt 7 Christ argues that bad fruit comes from bad trees and good fruit from good trees.

One who is a good tree produces good fruit. But if ten years from today that good fruit is seen to then be "bad" then at that future time the tree is once again "a bad tree" producing bad fruit.

Those who argue that the BAD tree produced GOOD fruit for ten years are turning a blind eye to the instruction given in Matt 7.

I see how this kinda relates to the OSAS solution debate that people argue here trying to use Hell as a kind of "purgatory" --

But how in the world does the baptismal regeneration topic fit in??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darron Steele]

BobRyan:

Mman introduced it in post #187, I think. Church of Christ polemicists are very baptism-fixated; it is often the single most important thing to them. They also commonly think, wrongly, that they are the only ones who `believe in baptism.' Therefore, they typically try to squeeze in some mention of baptism whenever they can -- even, as in this case, it would disrupt a conversation.

The point was raised to Mman that if we could fall in and out of Christ, and water baptism was point of salvation, then people should be getting rebaptized every time someone is `restored.' Churches of Christ do not do this, nor does Scripture ever example people who have converted to Christianity receiving multiple Christian water baptisms. Therefore, Mman's views on baptism and transitory salvation are inconsistent.

 

[mman]

BobRyan:

Mman introduced it in post #187, I think. Church of Christ polemicists are very baptism-fixated; it is often the single most important thing to them. They also commonly think, wrongly, that they are the only ones who `believe in baptism.' Therefore, they typically try to squeeze in some mention of baptism whenever they can -- even, as in this case, it would disrupt a conversation.

The point was raised to Mman that if we could fall in and out of Christ, and water baptism was point of salvation, then people should be getting rebaptized every time someone is `restored.' Churches of Christ do not do this, nor does Scripture ever example people who have converted to Christianity receiving multiple Christian water baptisms. Therefore, Mman's views on baptism and transitory salvation are inconsistent.

You are simply wrong. Your lack of scriptural evidence in your rebuttals is also very notable.

I have addressed the unnecessity of being re-baptized for the erring brother (or sister as it may be).

I am not baptism fixated. Baptism is no more or less important than anything else that is necessary to obtain the remission of sins, such as, repentance. It's just that most folks accept the commands and instructions in scripture concerning repentance, while they flat out reject the scriptures that deal with baptism. They are forced to twist EVERY plain passage in an attempt to "prove" that it doesn't really mean what it says.

Therefore, when Jesus said, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned," I teach that mean that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, and whoever does not believe will be condemned. If you reject repentance, then repentance is what I will focus on.

You've got a choice. Accept it for what it says. Try to twist it to mean, "Whoever believes and is saved will be baptized..." or dismiss it as either unauthentic or Jesus didn't know what He was talking about or was just kidding.

This command was carried out in Acts 2. Those believers in Acts 2:37 were not saved and need forgiveness of sins!

That is a simple point that nobody here seems to address. Here we have believers told to do something to obtain the remission of sins! They weren't told to believe, they already believed!!!!

What Peter told them is far different than what many folks say here. Most folks here would say, you don't have to "do" anything. You already believe, you are already saved. That was certainly not Peter's message. Peter kept with the commission given to him by Jesus.

What was the commission? We have 3 accounts as follows:

Mark 16:15-16 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 24:45-47 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

Matt 28:18-20 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

If you put all three together you have the following:

Teach, believe, repent and be baptized for remission of sins (saved).

This was to begin in Jerusalem. It did.

Acts 2:37 - In Jerusalem, the people had been taught and believed, because they were pricked in their heart

Acts 2:38 - Told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

They went everywhere preaching the word (Acts 8:4)

Philip preached Christ (Acts 8:5)

Those who believed were baptized (Acts 8:12)

Therefore preaching Christ includes instructions for water baptism!

Philip preached Jesus to the Eunuch (Acts 8:35). In the very next verse, we have the Eunuch's first question, See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized (Acts 8:36)? What was the pre-requisite? If you believe, you may.

Here again we have someone following Jesus' instruction, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Preaching Jesus comes with instructions for water baptism.

Here is what you CANNOT do!

You cannot find one passage or example that states that the new life begins prior to baptism.

You cannot show a scripture that speaks of getting INTO Christ that excludes baptism.

You cannot show where anyone who believed ever delayed in being baptized, even if it was the middle of the night.

You cannot show where any believer rejoiced prior to baptism!

I can show you what I believe in scripture!!! I can show you where the new life begins after baptism, that at baptism we are put into Christ, were people were baptized immediately and upon doing so, rejoiced.

 

[mman]

I like this verse. It poses a problem for your perspective.

Per Mark 1:7-8, John the Baptist “preached, saying, `After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit’” (ESV). John baptized only with water, but Jesus Christ was going to baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ would actually be involved with baptizing in both. John 3:22-3 says “After these things, Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized” (NASB). John 4:1 says “Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John” (NASB) and clarifies “although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were” (NASB).

Jesus maintained an aloofness to actually administering water baptism. He baptizes in His divine substance, and mortals baptized in a natural substance.

This is similar to the post-Crucifixion New Covenant. Nowhere in Scripture is Jesus portrayed as baptizing Christians in water; mortals are attributed the responsibility of baptizing in water throughout the New Testament. In the present New Covenant system, Christians baptize in water, while Jesus Himself does not. Jesus does, however, baptize in the Holy Spirit, as anticipated at Mark 1:7-8.

1 Corinthians 12:13 says “For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit” (ASV). All Christians are baptized “in one Spirit,” the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ does that, as anticipated at Mark 1:7-8.

Peter described an event of this. Acts 10:43b-4 says of Jesus Christ “through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.” (ASV). In recalling the event, Peter said “And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized| in the Holy Spirit'” (ESV|ASV) at Acts 11:16. At Acts 15:8-9, he recalled it again "Acts 15:8-9, “And God, who knoweth the heart, |gave them evidence|, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV|NBV|ASV).

Per what Peter said, Jesus baptizes in the Holy Spirit and this was an instance of this. However, the baptism did not occur until after Peter saw this event. This occasion was of such importance it was rehearsed three times in Acts, and a major church decision was made on the basis of it.

Therefore, 1 Corinthians 12:13 works against your position. Christ baptizes us into the Holy Spirit when we believe, which is the same time He brings us into the church, per Acts 5:14 and 2:47.

One simple point to disprove all you wrote. In Acts 2, they were not added when they first believed. Acts 2:37, they believed. Peter gave them no further instructions to believe, that was already evident!

I'm sorry. I strayed from the thread topic. I will repond no further concerning this on this thread.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan:

The point was raised to Mman that if we could fall in and out of Christ, and water baptism was point of salvation, then people should be getting rebaptized every time someone is `restored.' Churches of Christ do not do this, nor does Scripture ever example people who have converted to Christianity receiving multiple Christian water baptisms. Therefore, Mman's views on baptism and transitory salvation are inconsistent.

Well not that I believe in baptismal regeneration - but I have seen people who have publically left the church and chosen the world - come back and "be rebaptized".

Those Calvinists who believe in OSAS and ALSO hold to PERSEVERANCE "should" be promoting rebaptism all day long since they deny that the person ever was saved to start with when they are found to fail to persevere. So then when they eventually come back to God that kind of OSAS believer would have to assume that this person is now for the FIRST time born-again and should be "really Baptized" since the first baptism was supposedly a "fake".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Lacy admits that this "Hell is a kind of purgatory" invention that is getting tossed around here - is in fact a bogus effort to salvaiton OSAS so that one can ACCEPT the warning texts of scripture and "cling to OSAS anyway" --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1071763&postcount=58

 

[BobRyan]

question for the board.

I saw a recent thread on ME --

#1. is the argument I am refuting above being called ME??

#2. If so I do note that neither RC members nor SDAs support it - and in fact the RC position that DOES argue in favor of purgatory STILL does not go to the extreme of "hell is purgatory" nor even "the lake of fire is purgatory". So in that case even the RC position leaves hell and the topic of the LOF as the final disposition for the lost.

#3. Can someone post a link to the Board Management's position on ME?

Thanks.

in Christ,

Bob