A "Calvie" Explanation of Regeneratio...

[skypair]

... along with my "Freewillie" reply for your consideration.

There are two important components at this point that I think are helpful: 1. Monoergism 2. Synergism.

Monoergistically, when the gospel is preached, the Spirit moves and brings regeneration and conviction. As a sinner I am convicted of my sins and see my need for the Savior.

OK. I think most Calvinists claim that God works monergistically THROUGHTOUT the process of drawing one to salvation. Yours seems more practical and honest.

What I believe you are actually saying* is that through the gospel there is a knowledge of sin on your part and also the knowledge of need of a Savior. It is clear that this knowledge could take you either direction -- belief or unbelief -- right?

What must I do becomes the necessary question? the faith and repentance that I now exercise are evidence of my regeneration and are gifts given to me that I must now exercise.

Good ----- EXCEPT all you have is KNOWLEDGE so far. Knowledge alone doesn't regenerate. I think you would agree, right? Even the "non-elect" have knowledge if they heard what you heard.

The critical link that I see connecting KNOWLEDGE to FAITH and REGENERATION is RECEIVING that knowledge rather than refusing it. Here's where the "what must I do?" comes in. Repentance is evidence of my receiving the knowledge of the truth/gospel and for my repentance I am regenerated and receive the spiritual gift (1Cor 12,:9) as you say, of faith.


*But let's suppose you believe that the "conviction" of sin and need of a Savior is your conversion -- is evidence of the Holy Spirit coming into you in the indwelling power of regeneration. Perhaps you are saying that. That's more logical than any Calvinist's explanation I've heard so far. BUT John tells us that the Holy Spirit "will convict the WORLD of sin, or righteousness and of judgment." Everyone is convicted -- or at the very least many more than believe on Christ, wouldn't you agree??

So no -- the conviction itself is not regeneration. It merely puts the knowledge in your hands that enables you to repent and then receive regeneration and faith.

And I appreciate you "prying open" the "dogma box" inside of which any sense of how regeneration takes place for a Cavlinist has been hidden.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

... along with my "Freewillie" reply for your consideration.

OK. I think most Calvinists claim that God works monergistically THROUGHTOUT the process of drawing one to salvation. Yours seems more practical and honest.

What I believe you are actually saying* is that through the gospel there is a knowledge of sin on your part and also the knowledge of need of a Savior. It is clear that this knowledge could take you either direction -- belief or unbelief -- right?

Not to trivalize your response to my qoute but I think you have seriously mistaken my quote.

No where do I gave the impression that a person can choose to believe or not believe. A regenerated person always chooses to believe (John 6:35-40, 65; e.g. of Lydia, Acts 16:14f)

Good ----- EXCEPT all you have is KNOWLEDGE so far. Knowledge alone doesn't regenerate. I think you would agree, right? Even the "non-elect" have knowledge if they heard what you heard.

This is not "Good" because this is not what I believe. Regeneration precedes faith is what I believe.

The critical link that I see connecting KNOWLEDGE to FAITH and REGENERATION is RECEIVING that knowledge rather than refusing it. Here's where the "what must I do?" comes in. Repentance is evidence of my receiving the knowledge of the truth/gospel and for my repentance I am regenerated and receive the spiritual gift (1Cor 12,:9) as you say, of faith.

Regeneration precedes repentance. When the gospel was preached, the Spirit, working through the gospel, through regeneration brought about conviction of sin (Jas 1:18; 1Pet.1:23; John 16:8)

*But let's suppose you believe that the "conviction" of sin and need of a Savior is your conversion -- is evidence of the Holy Spirit coming into you in the indwelling power of regeneration. Perhaps you are saying that. That's more logical than any Calvinist's explanation I've heard so far. BUT John tells us that the Holy Spirit "will convict the WORLD of sin, or righteousness and of judgment." Everyone is convicted -- or at the very least many more than believe on Christ, wouldn't you agree??

So no -- the conviction itself is not regeneration. It merely puts the knowledge in your hands that enables you to repent and then receive regeneration and faith.

And I appreciate you "prying open" the "dogma box" inside of which any sense of how regeneration takes place for a Cavlinist has been hidden.

skypair

You have made too much of what I said. I concur wholeheartedly with classic Calvinism; Like Spurgeon, I too think it is only a nickname for what the Scriptures teach on the issue.

Neither am I a modern Calvinist, whatever that is. You have seriously mistaken what I am and what I believe. I am sorry.

 

[skypair]

Not to trivalize your response to my qoute but I think you have seriously mistaken my quote.

No where do I gave the impression that a person can choose to believe or not believe. A regenerated person always chooses to believe (John 6:35-40, 65; e.g. of Lydia, Acts 16:14f)

I know that. I was not quoting you at that point -- I was inferring what might take place within you at the point of "efficacious calling" when you heard the gospel. I was going with the thought that we have to know something in order to be saved or even regenerated.

This is not "Good" because this is not what I believe. Regeneration precedes faith is what I believe.

And I agreed to that order. I can't imagine what your protest is on this. I stuck with the order you gave me of efficacious calling -- regeneration -- faith.

I can only think that you want to withdraw from any efforts at "unity of the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ," Eph 4:13, which we Christians are supposed to aspire to till we all "come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" -- and to close up the "dogma ('I don't get it') box."

You know what dogma is, right? It's beliefs you must hold without any explanation or understanding of them in order to maintain your "theological purity." That's how Jim Jones' ministry took off -- to Jonestown.

Regeneration precedes repentance. When the gospel was preached, the Spirit, working through the gospel, through regeneration brought about conviction of sin (Jas 1:18; 1Pet.1:23; John 16:8)

How could it? You can't be "born again" until you have made a spiritual turn from your own efforts and from the world system. What you're (Calvinism) talking about is "new wine in old skins!" New patch on the old garment!

OK, I'll give you a chance. Connect the dots for me: the gospel is preached --- the Spirit works regeneration -- we are convicted. (Wasn't that my second scenario? At what point am I -- my mind, emotions, and will -- "engaged" in this process?

Classic Calvinsim says that you hear the gospel and the non-elect don't. Wouldn't regeneration come before the gospel if that is the case? So that regeneration allows you to "hear" and others not? Or does "hearing" really mean "thinking" about it long after you heard the gospel?

You have made too much of what I said. I concur wholeheartedly with classic Calvinism; Like Spurgeon, I too think it is only a nickname for what the Scriptures teach on the issue.

I apologize. I thought we were going to try to understand each other and to understand how Calvinism works (as I have already described how free will works). Shame on me for thinking a Calvinist has any interest at all in anything but protecting his reputation in this world. Are you a preacher by any chance?

Does it bother you at all that, under your theology, the Holy Spirit enters into a body that hates God? who is NOT committed to God or the new covenant with Him? into a "totally depraved" body? Please document for me how this could be true.

Sorry beforehand if I sounded a little harsh but you were, apparently, you are now more concerned about losing face than about finding truth.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I know that. I was not quoting you at that point -- I was inferring what might take place within you at the point of "efficacious calling" when you heard the gospel. I was going with the thought that we have to know something in order to be saved or even regenerated.

And I agreed to that order. I can't imagine what your protest is on this. I stuck with the order you gave me of efficacious calling -- regeneration -- faith.

I can only think that you want to withdraw from any efforts at "unity of the knowledge and faith of Jesus Christ," Eph 4:13, which we Christians are supposed to aspire to till we all "come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" -- and to close up the "dogma ('I don't get it') box."

You know what dogma is, right? It's beliefs you must hold without any explanation or understanding of them in order to maintain your "theological purity." That's how Jim Jones' ministry took off -- to Jonestown.

Even you would agree that we ought to be dogmatic at times. If that were not the case, we would have no footing, much less engage in a discussion. But we must not be dogmatic about everything.

How could it? You can't be "born again" until you have made a spiritual turn from your own efforts and from the world system. What you're (Calvinism) talking about is "new wine in old skins!" New patch on the old garment!

The actions you described are not true of classic Calvinism and what the Scriptures teach. It is impossible for a dead person in sin, who does not seek God, who is hostile to God, to his own efforts turn to God (John 1:12, 13; Rom 3:9-12; 8:7, 8). That sounds pelagian or even semi-pelagian to me. Not even an Arminians would aver what you have stated.

OK, I'll give you a chance. Connect the dots for me: the gospel is preached --- the Spirit works regeneration -- we are convicted. (Wasn't that my second scenario? At what point am I -- my mind, emotions, and will -- "engaged" in this process?

Classic Calvinsim says that you hear the gospel and the non-elect don't. Wouldn't regeneration come before the gospel if that is the case? So that regeneration allows you to "hear" and others not? Or does "hearing" really mean "thinking" about it long after you heard the gospel?

Then you do not know what classic Calvinism is. You are assuming you know, but you demonstrate that you do not know.

At this point, there is the general gospel call, but only the elect hears that internal call because of the work of the Spirit, who quickens the dead to hear the gospel. The Spirit always works with the word (2 Thess.2:12, 13; Jas 1:18; 1 Pet 1:23).

I apologize. I thought we were going to try to understand each other and to understand how Calvinism works (as I have already described how free will works). Shame on me for thinking a Calvinist has any interest at all in anything but protecting his reputation in this world. Are you a preacher by any chance?

First, I believe that Calvinism is just a nickname for what the Scriptures teach on the matter of salvation, sanctification and glorification. And if I believe it is biblical, and I do, like every other Calvinists, then we must defend it.

Does it bother you at all that, under your theology, the Holy Spirit enters into a body that hates God? who is NOT committed to God or the new covenant with Him? into a "totally depraved" body? Please document for me how this could be true.skypair

It does not body at all what a Sovereign God chooses to do (Eph 1:3-14; Rom 9-11; Isa. 55:8, 9). What bothers me is failing to trust and obey him, when I should.

 

[skypair]

Even you would agree that we ought to be dogmatic at times. If that were not the case, we would have no footing, much less engage in a discussion. But we must not be dogmatic about everything.

Being dogmatic is insisting we are right especially when we KNOW something. Dogma is insisting someone believe something for which we have or give no proof.

The actions you described are not true of classic Calvinism and what the Scriptures teach. It is impossible for a dead person in sin,[/quote] Truth is, Calvinism doesn't even know what "dead in sin" means. Know why? Because they don't distinguish between the soul and the spirit of a man. "Dead in sin" is SOUL death. The SOUL is the part of our nature that communes with God. That is clearly dead after one sins -- "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." Ezek 18.

So what about the spirit? does the spirit die on account of sin? Do the mind, emotions, and will die? Here's a test for you: When YOU sinned, did you a) go insane or b) lose touch with God?

Correct answer: Our mind, emotions, and will are still alive and cabable of choosing good or bad. To be dead in our spirit would be to be 1) brain dead or else 2) insane or mentally retarded. We are still, therefore, fully capable of responding to God's drawing and He draws ALL men, John 12:32.

At this point, there is the general gospel call, but only the elect hears...

OK, second chance -- why did you perceive that you could hear but others couldn't hear the gospel? If the Spirit ALWAYS works with the word, why did it work in you and not in others? Aren't you saying that you believed the word is why you "heard" it and others didn't?

I want you to consider the issue of the soul very seriously because Calvinism ignores the distinction and is, therefore, unlearned regarding the depravity of man and what his remaining abilities are.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

Being dogmatic is insisting we are right especially when we KNOW something. Dogma is insisting someone believe something for which we have or give no proof.

The actions you described are not true of classic Calvinism and what the Scriptures teach. It is impossible for a dead person in sin,

Truth is, Calvinism doesn't even know what "dead in sin" means. Know why? Because they don't distinguish between the soul and the spirit of a man. "Dead in sin" is SOUL death. The SOUL is the part of our nature that communes with God. That is clearly dead after one sins -- "The soul that sinneth, it shall surely die." Ezek 18.

So what about the spirit? does the spirit die on account of sin? Do the mind, emotions, and will die? Here's a test for you: When YOU sinned, did you a) go insane or b) lose touch with God?

Correct answer: Our mind, emotions, and will are still alive and cabable of choosing good or bad. To be dead in our spirit would be to be 1) brain dead or else 2) insane or mentally retarded. We are still, therefore, fully capable of responding to God's drawing and He draws ALL men, John 12:32.

OK, second chance -- why did you perceive that you could hear but others couldn't hear the gospel? If the Spirit ALWAYS works with the word, why did it work in you and not in others? Aren't you saying that you believed the word is why you "heard" it and others didn't?

I want you to consider the issue of the soul very seriously because Calvinism ignores the distinction and is, therefore, unlearned regarding the depravity of man and what his remaining abilities are.

skypair[/QUOTE]

I am not one who tends to be contentious. You have assumed the worst already of Calvinism. I see no need to continue in this discussion. There's no edification for me at this point in this one. God bless.

 

[skypair]

I am not one who tends to be contentious. You have assumed the worst already of Calvinism. I see no need to continue in this discussion. There's no edification for me at this point in this one. God bless.

So there is no edification in the truth?? That's a pretty sorry day, indeed!

Your theology is fatally flawed and you don't want to know about it, Sgt "I hear nothing" Schultz? :laugh:

So the fact that Calvinism "innoculates" millions against the preaching of the gospel is alright with you?

Like a doting mother, Calvinism says, "C'mon, honey. If you believe what I am saying, you don't have to actually 'do' anything. You're 'elect' already." That's not dangerous?

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

So there is no edification in the truth?? That's a pretty sorry day, indeed!

Your theology is fatally flawed and you don't want to know about it, Sgt "I hear nothing" Schultz? :laugh:

So the fact that Calvinism "innoculates" millions against the preaching of the gospel is alright with you?

Like a doting mother, Calvinism says, "C'mon, honey. If you believe what I am saying, you don't have to actually 'do' anything. You're 'elect' already." That's not dangerous?

skypair

I'm sure that TCGreek did not for one moment mean that there is "no edification in the truth". Rather, I understood him to be saying that he finds no edification in this discussion because you persist in telling Calvinists what they believe, even after he and several others on this Board have assured you that that is not what they believe. If that is indeed what he meant, I agree with him.

 

[TCGreek]

I'm sure that TCGreek did not for one moment mean that there is "no edification in the truth". Rather, I understood him to be saying that he finds no edification in this discussion because you persist in telling Calvinists what they believe, even after he and several others on this Board have assured you that that is not what they believe. If that is indeed what he meant, I agree with him.

Thank you, David Lamb. It is as simple as that.:thumbs:

 

[skypair]

I'm sure that TCGreek did not for one moment mean that there is "no edification in the truth". Rather, I understood him to be saying that he finds no edification in this discussion because you persist in telling Calvinists what they believe, even after he and several others on this Board have assured you that that is not what they believe. If that is indeed what he meant, I agree with him.

Dave -- I am asking him a question, sir. How does the Holy Spirit change the heart of the totally depraved. There is NO, I REPEAT NO, accusation in that. Either he knows or he doesn't. If he can't explain it, I'm sure he can tell me so himself.

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

Dave -- I am asking him a question, sir. How does the Holy Spirit change the heart of the totally depraved. There is NO, I REPEAT NO, accusation in that. Either he knows or he doesn't. If he can't explain it, I'm sure he can tell me so himself.

skypair

I'm sure he knows (insofar as God has revealed in His Word.) But when I said what I did about you persisting in telling Calvinists what they believe, I was not referring to your questions, such as "How does the Holy Spirit change the hearts of the totally depraved?" I meant your statements about Calvinism, such as:

"Calvinism doesn't even know what "dead in sin" means."​

"Calvinism "innoculates" millions against the preaching of the gospel"​

"Like a doting mother, Calvinism says, "C'mon, honey. If you believe what I am saying, you don't have to actually 'do' anything. You're 'elect' already."​

I am sure that if someone were misrepresenting what you believe, you would want to set the record straight.

 

[skypair]

I'm sure he knows (insofar as God has revealed in His Word.) But when I said what I did about you persisting in telling Calvinists what they believe, I was not referring to your questions, such as "How does the Holy Spirit change the hearts of the totally depraved?" I meant your statements about Calvinism, such as:

"Calvinism doesn't even know what "dead in sin" means."​

"Calvinism "innoculates" millions against the preaching of the gospel"​

"Like a doting mother, Calvinism says, "C'mon, honey. If you believe what I am saying, you don't have to actually 'do' anything. You're 'elect' already."​

I am sure that if someone were misrepresenting what you believe, you would want to set the record straight.

I'm sure of one thing --- I would defend my faith. Wouldn't you? Isn't that what Philadelphia does (Rev 3:10)?

Perhaps these issues are things TC has not even thought of. If so, I say, "Get your armor on man! The enemy (not me) is at the gates!"

skypair