A Calvinist, Mr. Dave Prepense, feels that he should join a church and after visiting many, many church websites over the years and after much research he settles on Grace Church. He likes the name and the fact that it is non-denominational. He has a meeting with the associate pastor, Pastor Taylor, for the purposes of an informal get together, a personal introduction, and preliminary membership interview.
After some pleasantries the discussion gets down to the subject at hand.
Pastor Taylor: “Tell me, Dave, are you a Christian?”
Dave: “Well, I exhibit the fruits of the spirit as described in Galatians. Since only believers can do that I consider myself a Christian. Nobody can really know they are of the Elect, though, until they pass, so it’s up to God to determine that.”
Pastor: “Can you point to a time in your life when you became a believer?”
Dave: “Do you mean like a specific date?”
Pastor: “A specific date would be great, but it could be a period of time, like sometime in July of 1996 or something like that.”
Dave: “Well, that depends on whose frame of reference you are relating it to. From God’s standpoint I’ve been a believer since before the foundation of the world, but from my standpoint I suppose it was 20 to 15 years ago. It was at this time that I discovered I was living out a lot of the fruits of the Spirit as mentioned in Galatians. I can’t nail down a specific year, though, as it was really sort of a slow realization that, hey, I could be part of the Elect.”
Pastor: “So, you can’t point to a specific incident or time when you repented and were converted because you believed in Jesus’ finished work on the cross?”
Dave: “As I said, I’ve been a believer from the time the earth was created. It says that in the Bible. At some point in my life, probably 20 years ago I was given a new heart, and with that the ability to believe, but really I can’t narrow it down to a specific year. Nobody can decide to become a Christian.”
Pastor: “Interesting. Previously you said you were a believer from before the foundation of the world and just now you said you were a believer from the time the earth was created. Which is it?”
Dave: “It depends on which translation is being used. I would put it at ‘before the foundation of the world’, as it says in the ESV. Pastor, when did you become a believer? Can you point to a specific time?”
Pastor: “Yes, I can. So, Dave, do people become Christians, or are they always Christians and they realize it at some point in their life?”
Dave: “Again, that depends on whose point of view you take. I believe that people are elected to salvation and this happens before the foundation of the world so, yes, for elected people, believing in Christ is inevitable, just a matter of time.”
Pastor: “So the thousands at Pentecost that Peter implored to ‘repent and be baptized that your sins may be blotted out’, or when Peter says, ‘repent and be converted’, or when the Bible says, ‘God commands all men everywhere to repent’, it really means that you should discover you are one of the Elect and start acting like it?”
Dave: “Well, I wouldn’t put it like that, but I suppose that’s a crude approximation.”
Pastor: “Dave, have you been baptized?”
Dave: “I don’t think the question should be whether or not I’ve been baptized, I think the question should be do you require baptism for membership in your church?”
[to be continued…]
After some pleasantries the discussion gets down to the subject at hand.
Pastor Taylor: “Tell me, Dave, are you a Christian?”
Dave: “Well, I exhibit the fruits of the spirit as described in Galatians. Since only believers can do that I consider myself a Christian. Nobody can really know they are of the Elect, though, until they pass, so it’s up to God to determine that.”
Pastor: “Can you point to a time in your life when you became a believer?”
Dave: “Do you mean like a specific date?”
Pastor: “A specific date would be great, but it could be a period of time, like sometime in July of 1996 or something like that.”
Dave: “Well, that depends on whose frame of reference you are relating it to. From God’s standpoint I’ve been a believer since before the foundation of the world, but from my standpoint I suppose it was 20 to 15 years ago. It was at this time that I discovered I was living out a lot of the fruits of the Spirit as mentioned in Galatians. I can’t nail down a specific year, though, as it was really sort of a slow realization that, hey, I could be part of the Elect.”
Pastor: “So, you can’t point to a specific incident or time when you repented and were converted because you believed in Jesus’ finished work on the cross?”
Dave: “As I said, I’ve been a believer from the time the earth was created. It says that in the Bible. At some point in my life, probably 20 years ago I was given a new heart, and with that the ability to believe, but really I can’t narrow it down to a specific year. Nobody can decide to become a Christian.”
Pastor: “Interesting. Previously you said you were a believer from before the foundation of the world and just now you said you were a believer from the time the earth was created. Which is it?”
Dave: “It depends on which translation is being used. I would put it at ‘before the foundation of the world’, as it says in the ESV. Pastor, when did you become a believer? Can you point to a specific time?”
Pastor: “Yes, I can. So, Dave, do people become Christians, or are they always Christians and they realize it at some point in their life?”
Dave: “Again, that depends on whose point of view you take. I believe that people are elected to salvation and this happens before the foundation of the world so, yes, for elected people, believing in Christ is inevitable, just a matter of time.”
Pastor: “So the thousands at Pentecost that Peter implored to ‘repent and be baptized that your sins may be blotted out’, or when Peter says, ‘repent and be converted’, or when the Bible says, ‘God commands all men everywhere to repent’, it really means that you should discover you are one of the Elect and start acting like it?”
Dave: “Well, I wouldn’t put it like that, but I suppose that’s a crude approximation.”
Pastor: “Dave, have you been baptized?”
Dave: “I don’t think the question should be whether or not I’ve been baptized, I think the question should be do you require baptism for membership in your church?”
[to be continued…]
