OldRegular
Well-Known Member
They really need no explanation since they do not exist in the manner dispensationalists believe.
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A Case for Israel as God's Chosen People
- Thread starter Thermodynamics
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They really need no explanation since they do not exist in the manner dispensationalists believe.
Pilgrimer
Member
Hello Hank,
But why do you keep making this distinction between “redeemed Israel and the Church?” That would be like making a distinction between Jesus and the Trinity. You can’t rightly make a distinction between Jesus and the Trinity because Jesus is part of the Trinity. In the same way you can’t rightly make a distinction between redeemed Israel and the Church because redeemed Israel is part of the Church. To make that kind of distinction implies that the Church is a Gentile only Church, which is the Dispensational model that maybe you are still laboring under. The Church is not just Gentiles, it is all the redeemed of all peoples of all time, including Jews, from Adam to the end of the world.
Now I agree with you that the New Jerusalem consists of two distinct elements bound in the Spirit (beautiful way of putting it, by the way) but those two distinct elements are not the redeemed nation of Israel and the Church, but . . . the redeemed nation of Israel and the redeemed nations of the Gentiles, that is where the true distinction is made, but these two distinct elements, redeemed Jews and redeemed Gentiles, together make up the one Church! The One Body! The One Bride! The One Faith! The One Building/City/Temple of God. Two distinct elements, Jews and Gentiles, one Church.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
But why do you keep making this distinction between “redeemed Israel and the Church?” That would be like making a distinction between Jesus and the Trinity. You can’t rightly make a distinction between Jesus and the Trinity because Jesus is part of the Trinity. In the same way you can’t rightly make a distinction between redeemed Israel and the Church because redeemed Israel is part of the Church. To make that kind of distinction implies that the Church is a Gentile only Church, which is the Dispensational model that maybe you are still laboring under. The Church is not just Gentiles, it is all the redeemed of all peoples of all time, including Jews, from Adam to the end of the world.
Now I agree with you that the New Jerusalem consists of two distinct elements bound in the Spirit (beautiful way of putting it, by the way) but those two distinct elements are not the redeemed nation of Israel and the Church, but . . . the redeemed nation of Israel and the redeemed nations of the Gentiles, that is where the true distinction is made, but these two distinct elements, redeemed Jews and redeemed Gentiles, together make up the one Church! The One Body! The One Bride! The One Faith! The One Building/City/Temple of God. Two distinct elements, Jews and Gentiles, one Church.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The early Church in its New Testament form was composed primarily of redeemed Israelites!
I have enjoyed your posts and agree in general. However I don't understand the rationale for speaking of the New Jerusalem as composed of two distinct elements, particularly given your remark: "redeemed Jews and redeemed Gentiles, together make up the one Church! The One Body! The One Bride! The One Faith! The OneBuilding/City/Temple of God. Two distinct elements, Jews and Gentiles, one Church." I would stop after "The OneBuilding/City/Temple of God."
In Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Jew and Gentile are built together into the Church, not built separately and then brought together.
OK pilgrim, I think this is exactly where we differ. My view is as I had stated earlier that redeemed Israel is distinct from but different than the Church. The Church is distinct and different than redeemed Israeland the two comprise New Jerusalem.
Yes, in my venue it would be improper to compare Christ to the Trinity since He is a member of the Trinity. In my view New Jerusalem corresponds to the Trinity as related to total unity of essence of redeemed Israel and the Church.
HankD
Pilgrimer
Member
Indeed, the Church originally was composed exclusively of Jews. The Pentecost of the Gentiles did not occur until 10 years after that of the Jews, in late 40 A.D. with the conversion of Cornelius and his friends. Then it was in late 41 or early 42 that the Jews actually began to preach the Gospel to Gentiles when those who had been scattered after the martyrdom of Stephen and had gone to Antioch began to share the Gospel with the Grecians living there and saw so many converted that when word reached Jerusalem the elders sent Barnabas to Antioch who confirmed God’s work among the Gentiles and went and brought the Apostle Paul back to Antioch to help with the work (see Acts 11:19-26). But even after that, we still see the Apostles, even Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, always going first the synagogues and preaching the Gospel first to the Jews. During those early years multitudes of Jews were saved and added to the Church.
To use the analogy offered by Hank, we can see the distinction within the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and yet we know there is but one God. In the same way, there is a distinction made in the Scripture between the redeemed of Israel and the redeemed gentiles and yet there is but one Church. The distinction is not one of value, that is, God does not love the Jew more than the Gentile, but the distinction is one of position, the Jews do and forever will hold a unique position within the Church . . . after all, it was through the Jews that Christ was born. And it was the Jews who brought the Gospel to the nations, and who, through their testimony (the New Testament Scriptures) brought the nations to God. It was the Apostles and Prophets, Jews all, who are the foundation upon whom the Church is built.
Actually, the Jews, like foundation stones, were built first, and then the Gentiles were added to them, as the verse you quoted above states where Paul said to Gentiles: Now therefore ye (Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints (the redeemed Jews), and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone ; In whom all the building fitly framed together growth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye (Gentiles) also (in addition to Jews) are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
So clearly Paul is telling Gentiles that they were built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, which were Jews.
And that is also what is shown in the Revelation of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Christ, that the gates of that city have the names of the 12 tribes of Israel and the wall of the city had twelve foundations with the names of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb.
And in chapter 14 and 7 the Revelation reveals the redeemed of Israel, 144,000 of them, who stood on Mt. Zion with the Lamb whereas the redeemed of the Gentiles are shown in chapter 7 immediately after the 144,000 and are referred to as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues . . .”
So I think there is clearly a distinction made in Scripture between the Jewish saints and the Gentile saints within the Church, and like Paul’s analogy of the body of Christ being like a human body, one is the eye and another the hand, but all have their place and their part to play and all together are one body.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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Pilgrimer
Member
Then how do you explain Acts 2 which speaks of those first few thousand Jews who were saved being "added to the church" (see verse 47) if Jews are not part of the church?
And in Acts 5, when Ananias and Sapphira withheld money and lied about it and were struck dead. The Scripture says "and great fear came upon all the church . . ." (verse 11). But this happened in 31 A.D., 9 years before the conversion of the first Gentile, Cornelius, in Acts 10.
And in Acts 8 we have the story of the persecution of "the church which was at Jerusalem" (see verse 1), which would have been the Jewish believers, and Paul making havoc of "the church" (verse 3), which at this time, 37 A.D., was composed solely of Jews, Cornelius hadn't been saved yet.
Also, in Revelation 21:2 and 9 the New Jerusalem is called "the bride" of Christ, but isn't the Church the Bride of the Lamb?
Again, I believe there is only one Church, one body of Christ. Granted, it has different members, but still, in the end, it is one body, now two.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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Time out everybody. Go listen to the April 23 podcast http://nicenecouncil.com/media/display.pl?media_file=89
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The above proves to me that there are not two distinct elements in the Church. Any city has of that time had foundations and gates. They were built as a unit, not separate entities and then joined. This is clearly demonstrated in the Verse from Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
I disagree completely with your interpretation of the references to passages from Revelation. The 144,000 in Revelation 7 cannot represent Israel since all twelve tribes are not mentioned. These are those sealed by the Holy Spirti. All believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit, not just Jewish believers. Furthermore, there is nothing that indicates the great multitude is composed only of Gentile believers.
As for the 144,000 on Mt Zion: In Hebrews [verses 12:22-24] the heavenly Mount Zion is identified as the Church. I believe that the 144,000 represent the Church on earth at any time in history as do the 144,000 in chapter 7, Mount Zion represents the power of the Lord Jesus Christ who is still sovereign over His creation..
OK, In my view those Jewish believers after the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 who were part of that baptism will be part of the church or have dual citizenship.
Again, this seems like the debates of old RE:Angels dancing on the head of the proverbial pin.
Also, again and admittedly, many of these elements concerning the distinction between redeemed Israel and the Church have overlaps in the subsets and some of the distinctions are miniscule.
But whatever the final analysis of the details:
Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
We are distinct from one another (and will be in eternity) yet one entity through the Spirit.
Call that entity what you will, New Jerusalem, Body of Christ, Bride of Christ, or the Church.
Personally I prefer the New Jerusalem, the City built without hands.
The 12 gates signifying the 12 tribes of Israel, the 12 foundation blocks signfying the 12 apostles, with Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.
HankD
If there "ONE SIN" that will condemn more people than all the other sins, it's the same sin Israel committed,
They "Believed" the "LIE" that "THEY" had the scriptures/God all figured out and didn't need "EARS TO HEAR" anymore about the Scriptures/God,
Not even when "GOD IN PERSON" was trying to teach them.
All the different "doctrines" in the world are "Evidence" of "EARS THAT DON'T HEAR",
and a "SIN" few are willing to confess.
As a "HUMAN BEING", you're no different than "Jews",
If Satan can "DECEIVE" them into believing a lie, no "ears to hear",
He can deceive you as well, flesh is flesh, Pride is Pride, Carnal minds are Carnal,
The problem with all "humans".
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Actually I am a spiritual Jew [Romans 2:28,29; Colossians 2:11].
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Hank D, Pilgrimer,
Who do the 24 elders in Revelation 4, 5 represent? Please note there are 24, not 12 and 12.
Who do the 24 elders in Revelation 4, 5 represent? Please note there are 24, not 12 and 12.
Excellent question OR (as usual).
I would have to say that the 24 elders are a metaphor for the yet to be fully revealed 12 gates and 12 foundations and what they represent concerning the New Jerusalem. Later in Revelation 21 a more detailed representation is revealed.
I know in these passages of chapters 4 and 5 of Revelation they are not divided into 12 and 12, but I don't personally believe that this summary view disqualifies a later representation which looks at the redeemed body of humankind in a slightly more detailed way.
HankD
Pilgrimer
Member
Hello Old Regular,
You and I are perhaps the closest in our eschatology, but we do have some different ideas about the place of the Jews in the Scriptures.
Actually, ancient walls, and even stone walls today, are built in the manner I’ve been pointing out that the Scripture speaks of. First the foundation is laid, and then the courses of stones are laid upon that foundation, row upon row, up and up until the building is complete, which is why this New Covenant “Temple” God is building is referred to as something that is living, indeed, it is growing. Every soul that is saved is another living stone added to this glorious work of God. And if God is till adding living stones to His Temple, then it obviously is not finished yet. I am reminded of what was written by the post-apostolic writer, “The Shepherd of Hermas” in his vision where he asks the woman about the return of the Lord, and she says, “Can’t you see that the tower is still being built? When the tower is finished being built, then the end comes.”
The whole point of all this is . . . that is what the Scripture speaks of, that the “Church,” the body of Christ, the “tabernacle” where God’s dwells with His people, the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem, which Paul also says is the New Covenant, these are all various descriptive images of one thing . . . the people who make up the household of God. Yes, much of it is spoken of in spiritual terms, using spiritual imagery, because that’s the way we all appear in the spirit . . . a beautiful, shining city set on a hill where the Father and the Lamb are enthroned. That is true of each of us as individuals, and of all of us corporately. Granted, we certainly don’t appear that way in the flesh, in fact, in the flesh we appear as a rather disjointed, quarrelsome, mish mash of so many different ideas and customs that there doesn’t appear to be any unity at all. But it’s not our dress or our customs or our mode and manner of worship or our thinking or even our understanding that binds us, it’s the Spirit that we walk in, that is where the Church is one. So I believe all these things we are looking at in the Scriptures are intended to show us ourselves and our relationship with God as we appear in the spirit.
I understand your objection, but I don’t understand your reasoning behind it. Revelation 7:4 says “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” And yet you say this is not a vision of the redeemed of Israel?
And then the Scriptures goes on to say, “After this (after the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel) I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues …” I take that to be a reference to the gentiles who are saved.
No one said God has built two churches and joined them together. The point was that, contrary to the Dispensational model, Israel is already part of the Church and is in fact the very foundation of the Church which was laid first before any Gentiles were added to it. This is both taught in the Scripture but is also what the history of the New Testament shows actually happened in the early years of the beginning of the Church.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
You and I are perhaps the closest in our eschatology, but we do have some different ideas about the place of the Jews in the Scriptures.
Actually, ancient walls, and even stone walls today, are built in the manner I’ve been pointing out that the Scripture speaks of. First the foundation is laid, and then the courses of stones are laid upon that foundation, row upon row, up and up until the building is complete, which is why this New Covenant “Temple” God is building is referred to as something that is living, indeed, it is growing. Every soul that is saved is another living stone added to this glorious work of God. And if God is till adding living stones to His Temple, then it obviously is not finished yet. I am reminded of what was written by the post-apostolic writer, “The Shepherd of Hermas” in his vision where he asks the woman about the return of the Lord, and she says, “Can’t you see that the tower is still being built? When the tower is finished being built, then the end comes.”
The whole point of all this is . . . that is what the Scripture speaks of, that the “Church,” the body of Christ, the “tabernacle” where God’s dwells with His people, the Bride of Christ, the New Jerusalem, which Paul also says is the New Covenant, these are all various descriptive images of one thing . . . the people who make up the household of God. Yes, much of it is spoken of in spiritual terms, using spiritual imagery, because that’s the way we all appear in the spirit . . . a beautiful, shining city set on a hill where the Father and the Lamb are enthroned. That is true of each of us as individuals, and of all of us corporately. Granted, we certainly don’t appear that way in the flesh, in fact, in the flesh we appear as a rather disjointed, quarrelsome, mish mash of so many different ideas and customs that there doesn’t appear to be any unity at all. But it’s not our dress or our customs or our mode and manner of worship or our thinking or even our understanding that binds us, it’s the Spirit that we walk in, that is where the Church is one. So I believe all these things we are looking at in the Scriptures are intended to show us ourselves and our relationship with God as we appear in the spirit.
I understand your objection, but I don’t understand your reasoning behind it. Revelation 7:4 says “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” And yet you say this is not a vision of the redeemed of Israel?
And then the Scriptures goes on to say, “After this (after the 144,000 of all the tribes of the children of Israel) I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues …” I take that to be a reference to the gentiles who are saved.
No one said God has built two churches and joined them together. The point was that, contrary to the Dispensational model, Israel is already part of the Church and is in fact the very foundation of the Church which was laid first before any Gentiles were added to it. This is both taught in the Scripture but is also what the history of the New Testament shows actually happened in the early years of the beginning of the Church.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
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Pilgrimer
Member
Perhaps it would be interesting to consider that it was the majority of the Jews who erred, led by the established religious authorities, doctors of the Law, "teachers" who should have known better.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
Pilgrimer
Member
Well, we know for sure who 12 of them are . . . the Apostles of Christ, and that's based on Jesus telling them that they would sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel (see Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:29-30), which is what is said in the Revelation of the 24 elders.
So the question is who would the other 12 be?
If one believes, as I do, that the faithful Jews of the Old Testament are also saved by the blood of Christ same as we are (seeing as how there is only one way of salvation), then the other 12 would most likely be the 12 heads of the 12 tribes, who were the "princes" and "rulers" of Israel under the Old Covenant. Thus all the faithful of all time, Old Testament and New Testament, are all represented.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I agree. My point they are called the 24 elders, not 12 elders and 12 elders.
I would also point out that there is one good olive tree [Romans 11] consisting of believers of the Old Testament era and believers of the New Testament era, not two vines twisted together.
It is also worth noting that all believers of the Old Testament were not descendants of Abraham, and I am not talking about proselytes. If you make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles just where do these people fit.
This starts out with hyper-dispensationalism, but you can find out
What I think about the "Separation" of the Church and Israel.
By clicking on that link..
(Please fast forward past the singing!)
What I think about the "Separation" of the Church and Israel.
By clicking on that link..
(Please fast forward past the singing!)
Exactly, Christianity is "following" the same pattern that led to Israel's destruction,
and it's for the "same reason, same sin".
For whatever reason, pride/ignorance, people look at Israel as a "history lesson", rather than a "Spiritual lesson" to learn from,
so the history is being repeated.
Excellent question OR!
I would say that there was a distinction of the promised seed from the very beginning.
So those from before the formation of the Nation of Israel who were of the semitic line would be included in Israel.
Adam, Shem, Arphaxad, Salah, Eber (from whence we get "Hebrew"), Reu, Sereg, Nahor, Terah, Abram (Abraham), Issac, Jacob (Israel).
All others were "Gentiles".
Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.
HankD
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