Featured A challenge to both Calvinist and Non-Calvinist

The Pharisee in Luke 18:11-12 might fit the bill. But I can name loads of sinners who are elect. The God I know is the One who justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5).

I'm glad you understand this.

You are all over the place with your ordo salutis.
Fact 1. God justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5 again). So you do not have to be righteous to be in Christ.
Fact 2. 1 Cor. 2:14. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.' Therefore, 'No one can come to Me unless the father who sent Me draws Him' (John 6:44). So unless God does a work on someone's heart he cannot believe on Christ for salvation.
Fact 3. God pre-destined sinners to salvation before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13 etc.).
Fact 4. Elect sinners were given to Christ to save at least before the incarnation (John 6:39 etc.) and probably in eternity past.
Fact 5. Elect sinners are not justified until they believe (Isaiah 12:1-3) and therefore are under God's judicial wrath until that time.
Fact 6. When guilty sinners repent and trust in Christ, God declares them righteous (ie. justifies them) because Christ has taken away their sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). They are then 'sealed' by the Holy Spirit to the Day of Redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14).

Conclusion: We can therefore see that there are two works of the Holy Spirit necessary for someone to be saved. There needs to be a work of the Spirit in order for anyone to believe (cf. Matthew 16:17; Acts 16:14). But this is not justification, salvation or sealing because these things do not happen until the time that someone believes.

 

Been there... done that.

NASB -
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

So then the lost person believes and confesses without being regenerate first -- and this "results in salvation"?? Do you have a Calvinist text saying it? Because I think we have a few denying it.

Speaking of having people speak for themselves -- Who calls themselves a "hyper-Calvinist"??

 

The Bible is quite clear that no one is able to believe on Christ to salvation without the Holy Spirit doing a work upon his heart first, and there is nothing in Romans 10:10 that denies that. Repetition is tedious; have a look at my post #42.

No one calls himself a Pelagian, but there are a few of them about.

Do you know this hymn?

'Long my imprisoned spirit lay
fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quickening ray;
I woke- the dungeon flamed with light.
My chains fell off, my heart was free.
I rose, went forth and followed Thee.'

That was written by Charles Wesley, an Arminian. He did not deny that there must be 'prevenient grace'- a work of God the Holy Spirit upon the heart of a man before he can believe. His error was in thinking that this grace can be resisted.

BTW, reference the NASB translation, check out the marginal note. There is no Greek word translated 'resulting in.' The NKJV rendering is more accurate (eis = 'unto'), not that it matters much.

 

[Yawn] Calvinism says nothing of the sort. Just read my post #42. There aren't very many long words in it. You can do it if you try. And try to remember this: CHRIST JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY.

 

No text says that.

What the Bible says is "The Holy Spirit convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 an of course we know that through the Holy Spirit God "Draws ALL MANKIND unto Him" John 12:32.

This does not mean that all mankind are "born-again" or that they have to experience the New Birth before they can repent.

Romans 10:10 confirms this "not born-again" idea since not all the world is born-again.

 

So then the lost person believes and confesses without being regenerate first -- and this "results in salvation"?? Do you have a Calvinist text saying it? Because I think we have a few denying it.

Speaking of having people speak for themselves -- Who calls themselves a "hyper-Calvinist

Fine then I stick with my "born-again, regenerated-first" insert into Romans 10 as the Calvinist position since your disown of other Calvinists as being outside the camp of Calvinism - is not anything that they themselves claim -as even you admit.

They are Calvinists by their own confession and look just like Calvinists to the rest of us. Even you have a hard time trying to avoid the regenerated-first argument in your responses about Romans 10.

You can't have it "both ways"

 

NASB -
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

until you read Romans 10:10 from the NASB and recall that the NASB is a more accurate, more literal translation than NKJV that you quoted.

εἰς eis, ice; a primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered),

== an awkward way to say "resulting in" would be this: "to or into (indicating the point reached or entered)"

 

I keep quoting them but there's none so blind as those that won't see.
Try Matthew 11:25-27; Matthew 16:17; John 6:44; Acts 13:48; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

So why is not everybody in the world convicted of their sin and drawn to Christ? Or do you think they are?

I can agree with you that all mankind is not born again. Yet without being 'born again' no one will either see or enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3, 5), so what advantage is there in those who are not born again repenting?

 

Romans 10:10 only says this in your imagination. No one believes in Christ unless the Holy Spirit does a work on his heart, but no one is justified until He repents and believes. Can you understand that?

Some people seem to believe that the Holy Spirit is some sort of one-trick pony and has only one operation on a person.
In A.W. Pink's fine work on the Holy Spirit, which can be found on-line, he has 32 chapters including the following:
The Spirit Regenerating
The Spirit Quickening
The Spirit Enlightening
The Spirit Convicting
The Spirit Comforting
The Spirit Drawing
The Spirit Working Faith
The Spirit Uniting to Christ
The Spirit Indwelling
and so forth.

Some thoughts on the Ordo salutis based on Romans 8:29-30. To foreknow means much more than simply knowing beforehand; it is that wonderful Biblical use of the word 'know' meaning to know with love (eg. Amos 3:2 etc.). God's love for His chosen people in eternity past causes Him to predestine them for salvation (Ephesians 1:4-5). Everyone who is predestined by God to salvation is effectually called by God at some time in their lives. A large congregation may listen to a gospel sermon, but perhaps just one or two are affected by it; or someone may hear a portion of scripture, or perhaps just look at the beauty of nature and it sets him on a train of thought which will eventually lead him to Christ. This is the effectual call. It is the first movement of God upon the unconverted spirit and as such it is entirely sovereign and monergistic. The subject, the unconverted person has no part in it. It may be thought of as the moment of conception of the New Birth, the implantation of spiritual life.

This call leads to awakening or quickening, when men and women begin to think seriously about the things of God for the first time. Conviction is a further step along the road, when awakened souls come to see themselves as sinners under the just condemnation of God. Now conviction is not just having a bad conscience or a sense of shame- many unsaved, non-elect people have that. Those who are truly convicted by the Holy Spirit see their sin as God sees it- in all its vileness and wickedness in rebellion against the Creator- and they come to understand the justice of God in sending sinners to hell.

Then, finally, they come to understand from the word of God (whether preached or read) that Jesus Christ has done everything necessary to reconcile them to God and is standing ready to receive them. They repent and believe, whereupon God justifies them (that is, He judicially declares them righteous since Christ has paid the penalty for their sin upon the cross) and glorifies them by seating them with Christ in the heavenly places (Eph. 2:9; Col. 3:3).

 

You fail to understand. There is a believing that does not result in salvation (Acts 8:13, 20-21). I am usually quite a fan of the NASB, but here it is unsatisfactory.

 

NASB -
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

1. The text says believing and confessing results in salvation.
2. The belief that results in righteousness - is true and not in-name-only.

I think it is safe to go along with the Bible on this one.

 

Why would you think that??

1. God so Loved the World that He gave..
2. "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for our sins only -- but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
3. "God is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3
4 "God sent His son to be the Savior of the world" 1 John 4:14

So then when you say "foreknow" is loving -- no doubt since God "so loved the World"

But to cram even more into it - via extreme inference would not be "sola scriptura" anything.

 

They are ... but they also have free will to resist.

Many steps - drawn, convicted, free-will choice to respond, believe, repent, confess, be Baptized, live the Christian life, die having persevering firm until the end Romans 2

 

Always safe to go along with the Bible But not to take one text, in one translation and bounce up and down on it like a trampoline. The devil can quote a text of Scripture. The truth is not found in 'it is written,' but in 'it is written again' (Matthew 4:5-7).

 

The Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation, not only for the sins of Jews like John, but for Gentiles, Greeks, Arabs and Americans, for men and women, rich and poor, slave and free (Galatians 3:28. Note the use of the word 'all' in v26 and its qualification in v.27). If He were the propitiation for every single person in the world, every single person in the world would be saved because God would be propitiated towards them.

Note also the qualification in 2 Peter 3:9. 'The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us*. not willing that any [of us] should perish but that all [of us] should come to repentance.'
God's longsuffering is directed towards His elect. Not one of them will perish, but all will come to salvation (John 17:2 etc.).
[*Some texts have 'you' instead of 'us' but that does not affect the basic meaning]

'What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?' (Romans 9:22-24). Salvation is not restricted to one nation only, but has come to the whole world.

 

John 6:39. 'This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing but raise it up at the last day.'

There is no question of those whom God has given to the Son to redeem resisting salvation. Not even one will be missing.

Read Revelation 7:9-10. What is it that the great crowd cry? 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' Salvation does not belong to us to accept or reject. Left to ourselves we would always reject it (eg. John 3:19). Praise God for Irresistible grace!

 

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not"

Isaiah 5 - “And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 “What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?


Matt 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

The reason that Calvinism struggles with these texts - is that it cannot figure out how God could possibly know who would accept vs who would reject - without first "rigging the system" so it comes out that way. God says He is not doing that - and thus gets the outcome "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" - so not "just the good outcomes".

This does not take away from the fact that as an all-knowing God He knew the outcome.

 

Context is so very important when quoting scripture.
Anyone can find a prooftext for their presupposition.
The question is: Are we willing to wrestle with the tension that is God and His work?