A Challenge to prove...

[Ray Berrian]

Tyndale1946

My parents willed my birth. Human agents. I invited Christ into my life. I did not feel coerced into entering the faith of Jesus. I was the human agent willing my spiritual birth.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
My parents willed my birth.

Ah, there's the point, Ray. The person being born doesn't will it. The parents bring it about. God brings about the new birth as the heavenly Father.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[Ray Berrian]

It is very true that God brings about the new birth. It is not of human generation--'not of blood.' It does not take place because we can will it into existence--'nor of the will of the flesh.' We cannot help participate in the bringing about of new spiritual life. Being adopted into the family of God is solely ministered by the Triune Godhead.

On the other hand, we become the sons of God only as we receive Christ and yield to Him as God, it is then, that He gives the power/dynamite/authority to become the children of God. [John 1:12-13]

Calvinists believe that He gives the spiritual power--ministers it and then because of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit--that person believes and trusts the Son.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Calvinists believe that He gives the spiritual power--ministers it and then because of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit--that person believes and trusts the Son.

Amen.

Ken

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Scott J that doesn't sound like Calvinism to me!... What part of TULIP don't you understand?... There is a great chasm between our will and Gods will. The way I understand Calvinism that God gives us the will and according to Total Depravity the will given is irresistible because the man is dead... Body, soul, and spirit! He gives us the will and the to do! Now where does mans will fit in... in reference to Eternal Salvation?... Brother Glen

I don't think I disagree with anything you wrote here and am pretty sure that I understand TULIP and the Bible.

Total Depravity- man is wholly incapable of any good...including faith or a decision to choose Christ.

Irresistable Grace- the elect will by the providence of God and power of the Holy Spirit hear the gospel and accept Christ as Saviour without exception.

I was simply trying to point out "how" this occurs. It is not like the programming of a robot but rather like the saving of a drowning man. Not that he chooses to be saved but God has certainly given him a natural desire not to drown that manifests itself. When a person is genuinely enlightened by the Holy Spirit only one outcome is possible but it is not a matter of force in the sense that many here try to make it.

[ July 24, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

[tyndale1946]

All I and Ken and all the other brethren of the Calvinist persuasion are saying is that the man you are talking about has no ability because he is DEAD!... Now how many idioms of DEAD are there?... The reason he has the will and the to do is because he is saved already and not to be saved... I don't see it as you do... He is not drowning he is DEAD!... Ezekiel 16 will tell you how dead he is!... Brother Glen

 

[Eric B]

Hunt and others have pointed out that if "dead" is going to be taken to that extent, then the person can't sin or reject God either.
Plus, in the analogy of the drowning man, this "death" (having drowned already) is what happens when the person who was "drowning" was not "saved", and thus corresponds to Hell. Now for someone in Hell, nobody is arguing that He can get out, so your concept of "DEAD" can fit better that situation. But the living sinner is not in Hell yet.
This shows there are at least different levels of "spiritual death", which are being confused.

[ July 24, 2002, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Eric B,

Good post.

There are millions of 'dead sinners' who have heard the Gospel and know what they have to do to be saved, but would freely admit that they are not in the Kingdom. They have the mental ability to understand, and for many of them they are under conviction, but have not yet yielded their lives to Jesus. The Light has shown into their lives. These people still remain in their lost condition because they like their lives the way they are right now, apart from Christ.

The Calvinists concept of 'dead' is a clever hid-out that we will not allow them to use. Christ has ' . . . lighted every one who has come into the world.' Dead does not mean annihiliated.

 

[russell55]

I was the human agent willing my spiritual birth.

You don't see a conflict between that statement and John 1:12,13:

...who were born.....not of the will of man?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Eric B:
Hunt and others have pointed out that if "dead" is going to be taken to that extent, then the person can't sin or reject God either.

Being "dead" they are already alienated from God and under His wrath. They don't have to do something to to be in that position. The first Adam put us in that position to start with.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[TomMann]

it would grieve me deeply if i thought God programmed me for salvation...i leave robots to science..the more ive learned about Calvinism the more of an error in theology i see it to be. saved by grace i pray we share in common.

So it would grieve you deeply if you did not get some credit for your salvation.....

I take no credit.... My role in my salvation was that I did all the sinning. Christ's role in my salvation was that he did all the saving.

 

[tnelson]

Eph.2:1
And you He made alive,who were dead in trespasses and sins,
Eph.2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph.2:3
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

by His Grace
mike

 

[doug44]

TomMann....i take no credit whatsoever for my salvation....it is a gift from God.....im not worthy to be saved...none of us are...but Christs death on the cross and resurrection makes those who believe and trust in Him worthy...only by the Grace of God...

 

[doug44]

Calvinists have this thought stuck in their head that we none Calvinists are trying to take credit for our own salvation....the only credit goes to God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. i do believe Gods word does say..."For it is by grace that you are saved, and not of yourselves" The power to save us is Gods alone...as said countless times over...God lets us exercise the free will to choose eternal life...By believing and trusting in Him for salvation....the death,burial and resurrection by Jesus Christ the son of God made possible the only way to be saved from our sins...

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by doug44:
The power to save us is Gods alone

But you're saying He can't exercise that power unless we say, "O.K.". Power that can only be exercised with someone else's say so is in practice no power at all.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

 

[doug44]

the issue is pretty well becoming redundant...have a good day Calvinists...Arminians...Spurgeonites...Samsonites...Canaanites...etc. etc. when others see me or think of me all i want to be seen or remembered of me is that i lived for Christ..that is my hearts desire....I am a born again Christian...

 

[doug44]

Ken...wasnt avoiding answering your last post...ive answered your question a few times before..thats why i said the subject is getting redundant....take care...

Concerned Christian,
Doug

 

[pinoybaptist]

Originally posted by doug44:
TomMann....i take no credit whatsoever for my salvation....it is a gift from God.....im not worthy to be saved...none of us are...but Christs death on the cross and resurrection makes those who believe and trust in Him worthy...only by the Grace of God...

And you are saying, of course, that you believe and trust in Him because you have the capacity to do so on your own. No need for God to regenerate (quicken) you first, no need for God
to give you the faith to trust Him, no, you have it all by yourself, thank you.
You have to agree to what I said, Doug, because if you don't then your statement that you are not worthy to be saved would amount to empty air.
Anybody able to repent of his sin on his own, to choose between God and Satan on his own, deserves salvation, because such a one will not want to go to hell, therefore he will choose salvation with no help at all from the One who is Life.
But, then, the scriptures clearly state man is unable to act outside the boundaries of his fallen nature, and within the boundaries of that fallen nature is the inability to accept the inability to come to God on one's fallen own. God asks in Jeremiah:
Can the Ethiopian change the color of his skin, and the leopard its spots ? If so, then may ye also do good, who are accustomed to evil.

 

[doug44]

its nothing but redunancy at this point pinoybaptist...nothing to add..its all been said.....

 

[Ray Berrian]

Your back-to-back posts are saying what I also believe. The posts about taking no credit for grace.