A Changed Man!

[Dave G]

How about he makes his rain to fall on the unjust too to show his goodness which should lead men to think well of God and repent.

" Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" ( Romans 2:4 )

I agree.
His goodness is designed to lead men to repentance.
But even though it should, there's a problem according to Scripture:

Why won't we repent?
" who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." ( Romans 1:32 ).

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 )

Mankind, apart form God's miraculous gift of eternal life, will not come to God and will not seek God in all our ways ( Psalms 10:4, Romans 3:10-18 ).

Again, God's word itself provides the answers, and all we have to do is to accept the words on the page.

And how about your exhorted to LOVE so that the world may KNOW?

"A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." ( John 13:34-35 )

It bears witness to the fact that believers are God's children.

 

[Dave G]

That doesn't demonstrate God wants to bring all the world along into the truth?

Sure, if one completely divorces God's choice in salvation, and all the passages that declare His being selective in whom He saves.

" For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." ( 1 Timothy 2:3-4 ).

Either "all men" means each and every man, woman and child here, or it means all kinds of men, both Jew and Gentile.

1) Ramifications of understanding "all men" to literally be, "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:3-4:

A) There are millions in Hell that God "could not save", and whose sins are forgiven.
B) Christ's blood was not enough to cleanse all men of their sins...since even unbelief is a sin ( John 16:9 ).
C) Individual election is conditioned in favor of a "what if" salvation that depends upon man's efforts, and not God's efforts.
D) Grace becomes polluted by man's efforts, and God relies on man's decision to determine who He wants to save, instead of His own perfect and just reasons.
E) Creates too many contradictions in other passages too numerous to mention here.
F) Makes God powerless to save anyone without their "consent".
G) Many more.

2) Ramifications of understanding "all men" to be "all kinds of men", both Jew and Gentile:

A) Preserves God's right to pardon and save whom He will, and not whom we will.
B) Preserves John 1:13, Titus 3:5-6, James 1:18, and many others.
C) Preserves salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
D) Makes God a "respecter of persons" with regard to saving some and not others, instead of being a "respecter of persons" in recognizing one man's efforts to gain salvation over another's.
E) Salvation is "of the Lord", start to finish, totally devoid of any interference from men.

To me, item "E" above is the single best reason for choosing # 2...
God gets all the credit, and no man can even remotely say that they had anything to do with their gift of eternal life.

 

[Dave G]

Why would he care what they world would KNOW if he didn't want them saved!?

" Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." ( Matthew 5:16 ).

" Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation." ( 1 Peter 2:12 ).

To glorify God.
It's a witness against them and to Him that He has created a righteous people for His name's sake.

How you can go down this road as Calvinists do and say yes God shows LOVE to the what you call the non-elect but on the most IMPORTANT, VITAL, and CRUCIAL thing of their existence the salvation of their souls he shuts them out....and you call that love in any sense where men never even had a chance?

Because it's real love.

The kind of love that a man has for his wife, God has for His children.
Physical, selective love that men have for their loved ones, is a "picture" of what God has for His children ( Ephesians 2:4-10 ).

That's the reason believers are called, "the bride of Christ" and likened to a chaste virgin.

The kindness that God shows to those who are not His children, is righteous and merciful...in that, even though His goodness leads them to repentance, because of His desire to show His wrath and to make His power known, He leaves them in their condition.

In other words, Rockson...
If you've truly believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, be very glad He showed His mercy towards you.
The fact that you've believed, is the evidence of His favor upon you.
The alternative is, that He could have simply denied His grace and left you in your blindness and you'd have never known the difference.

A song I remember seeing the lyrics to when I was younger, said, "Dance into the fire..."
Which is what all men do outside of Christ.
They love sin, and they hate God.

Given the "chance", we would have only spit in His face rather than take Him up on His "offer".


Like I've asked @InTheLight ...
What's the problem?

If you hate sin, and recognize your need of a Saviour, then you enjoy the benefits of His election.
You are at peace with Him, and you have that eternal relationship with a Creator who loves you, and gave Himself for you.

 

[Dave G]

The type of love YOU'RE talking about would be like giving someone a nice meal and then slaughter them at no fault of their own.

If I were you I'd be careful in your objections, sir.
You have no right to complain against who God saves and who He does not.

After all if the way you view God he ordained that they be a sinner and he did this before their birth, can you have fault when you don't even exist?!

Again, this charge and many others have been answered... and I will add, far too many times.
I encourage you to read and carefully consider:

God does not cause men to sin ( James 1:13-15 ).

We do that just fine all by ourselves.
He did not ordain us to be sinners, He ordained His children to be saved from His wrath... and the rest left in their sinful state, being denied the grace He gives to His elect.

It's a merciful and gracious thing to save some, instead of casting us all into Hell where we deserve to be.
Given the alternative, I'd think you'd be more grateful for the position that you seem to enjoy...one of favor with God, IF you've truly believed on His Son.


Knowing this may offend you and not really wanting to, but also believing that this needs to be addressed ( yet again ), I'll use this example when I stand back and look at some of your comments since I've been on this forum...

To me, it's as if the man who is pardoned from Death Row for a heinous crime, then goes out and demonstrates against the governor... railing on him for not pardoning all the people on Death Row, who justly deserve their punishment.

Apologies in advance, but I think that your priorities and sense of justice are a bit out of whack.
We as rebellious sinners have no leg to stand on.
We are at fault, and who are we to reply against God?

I think that if you truly understood man's position before the Lord, that should be enough to silence any objections.
Instead, it seems that you have not fully grasped the situation.


When and if you ever do, it should make you fall on your face in gratitude for being a changed man.


This is my final reply in this thread, sir.
I wish you and the others here, well.

 

[Rockson]

If I were you I'd be careful in your objections, sir.
You have no right to complain against who God saves and who He does not.

But I do have a right to protest a false paradigm which I believe Calvinists have about your understanding of how God saves and why.

 

[Rockson]

To me, it's as if the man who is pardoned from Death Row for a heinous crime, then goes out and demonstrates against the governor... railing on him for not pardoning all the people on Death Row, who justly deserve their punishment.

But you need to consider that I'm not demonstrating against the governor...(God) But against you or your false Calvinistic paradigm. And I'm doing this out of LOVE to the governor for I appreciate his kind, loving gracious character which I think Calvinists basically set aside.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But you need to consider that I'm not demonstrating against the governor...(God) But against you or your false Calvinistic paradigm. And I'm doing this out of LOVE to the governor for I appreciate his kind, loving gracious character which I think Calvinists basically set aside.

Do you believe in the sovereignty of God?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your a bad man Dave... you don’t believe God loves everyone. Can’t have any Esau in the mix.

Now if I was a degenerate catholic, yea God would love the whole world and it would be my responsibility to go to mass each Sunday go to confession and in short jump each of the hoops... then there would be no sin on my soul. That being the case, I’d go to heaven. If not, I’d go to the fiery furnace. So it’s all on me... God doesn’t intervene since it’s all spelled out. Sin is controllable by the Church rules and regulations.... and if you are a punk, just say an act of contrition and it will be all better. God loves us all and wants us to be good boys and girls... it’s all up to you!

 

[tyndale1946]

Your a bad man Dave... you don’t believe God loves everyone. Can’t have any Esau in the mix.

Now if I was a degenerate catholic, yea God would love the whole world and it would be my responsibility to go to mass each Sunday go to confession and in short jump each of the hoops... then there would be no sin on my soul. That being the case, I’d go to heaven. If not, I’d go to the fiery furnace. So it’s all on me... God doesn’t intervene since it’s all spelled out. Sin is controllable by the Church rules and regulations.... and if you are a punk, just say an act of contrition and it will be all better. God loves us all and wants us to be good boys and girls... it’s all up to you!

There is a reason why I started this OP and there is a reason I was watching from the sidelines and letting the OP develop... I started this post in a rebuttal to the post ILT made on here August 1 on his summary of Calvinism after being here for eight years... Brethren I've been on here for eighteen and I think the main reason I started this OP, is because a response that Reynolds made on that post

You can not do anything good in the sight of God prior to regeneration. The best work of the unregenerate man is seen by Him as a used menstural rag.

Unregenerated man is pure evil. Anyone who has broken the law is guilty of the entire law. In God's eyes, the serial killer and the best by worldly standards unsaved person are equal. There is no true goodness outside God.
(And I am not a Calvinist.)

And I am not a Calvinist either I am Old Line Old School Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist... And if you don't think I can defend what I wrote you need to talk to the other Sovereign Grace brethren on here and they will tell you, that's absurd but I let them run with the ball, because they came out of where you are now... I was raised in a Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist Church, since the age of seven and I have heard this beautiful doctrine for over 50 years... Do the Old Line Old School Primitive Baptist believe in TULIP, we most certainly do... Not because of John Calvin, talk to other brethren like Saul who were delivered from the Law... Like Earth Wind and Fire, who was delivered from the Law after 35 years, and he met his Damascus road, because God changed the man... Brother Glen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]