A Civil Discussion about the Origin of Sin

[Skandelon]

This I know, the rape of a child is a forgiveable sin, and blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is not. So which is more "heinous" in God's sight, and where did the thought to blaspheme originate?

Think along those lines and your question about the rape of a child is academic.

Once again you are diverting the subject to what is more heinous, all the while ignoring the question at hand. If it is so academic then it should be a simple answer. Here let me repost it for you:

Now, who is the first person who thought of the heinous sin of molesting and torturing a small child? Did God originate that thought or did it originate in the mind of a sinful criminal?

1. If God, then you have to defend your position that God is not the author of evil.
2. If the criminal, then you have to defend your position that God "controls all things," because you have someone creating or originating something apart from God.

Answer the question. Thanks

 

[quantumfaith]

Adam was the door, but sin did not originate with Adam. That is not what that Scripture is saying.

With regard to humanity, sin did in fact originate with Adam.

 

[Aaron]

And it was the belief in a lie, not the rape of a child.

 

[Aaron]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is moot; a red herring. I don't believe such a sin can be committed today. It was committed by the Pharisees in the days of Christ when they saw him do miracles right before their eyes, and attributed those works to the power of Satan, rather than the power of the Holy Spirit. That cannot happen today for Christ is not present in the flesh today.

Well, if pixilated whims have standing in this debate, then Santa lives at the North Pole too.

God help us.

 

[Skandelon]

I suspect this question will continue to be avoided and its subject diverted for obvious reasons.

 

[DHK]

Well, if pixilated whims have standing in this debate, then Santa lives at the North Pole too.

God help us.

Instead of making ad hominems, why not try to answer the question that has been asked you, and you avoid each and every time:

Now, who is the first person who thought of the heinous sin of molesting and torturing a small child? Did God originate that thought or did it originate in the mind of a sinful criminal?

1. If God, then you have to defend your position that God is not the author of evil.
2. If the criminal, then you have to defend your position that God "controls all things," because you have someone creating or originating something apart from God.

 

[mets65]

The lack of a response is typically equated with the inability to do such.

 

[Skandelon]

The lack of a response is typically equated with the inability to do such.

True.

In my experience, the strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored.

 

[Skandelon]

Since no Calvinist seems willing to attempt an answer maybe we should consider the words of Calvin himself:

". . . the Lord had declared that "everything that he had made . . . was exceedingly good" [Gen. 1:31]. Whence, then comes this wickedness to man, that he should fall away from his God? Lest we should think it comes from creation, God had put His stamp of approval on what had come forth from himself. By his own evil intention, then, man corrupted the pure nature he had received from the Lord; and by his fall drew all his posterity with him into destruction. Accordingly, we should contemplate the evident cause of condemnation in the corrupt nature of humanity-which is closer to us-rather than seek a hidden and utterly incomprehensible cause in God's predestination." [Institutes, 3:23:8]

Is that view consistent with most Calvinists here?

 

[Winman]

I believe sin originated with Satan.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found IN THEE.

Satan was the one who introduced sin, it did not originate outside himself but within himself. Jesus said he was the "father" of lies.

 

[DHK]

I believe sin originated with Satan.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day thou wast created, till iniquity was found IN THEE.

Satan was the one who introduced sin, it did not originate outside himself but within himself. Jesus said he was the "father" of lies.

But that doesn't answer the question of this thread. Is Satan the cause of sin on this earth? Or was it Adam? Or was it God? Who do we attribute sin to? I believe the Bible says unequivocally that the first sin was by Adam. Satan tempted Eve, but Adam rebelled against God. Adam was the one that sinned. One has to take responsible for their sin.

Winman don't go down the street yelling: "The devil made me do it! The devil made me do it...."

 

[Aaron]

Instead of making ad hominems, why not try to answer the question that has been asked you, and you avoid each and every time:

I have answered it.

Here's the question: "Who is the first person who thought of the heinous sin of molesting and torturing a small child?"

My answer paraphrased: The issue isn't child molestation (which, despite his statement to the contrary, Skandelon posed for it's shock and abhorrence factor) but the origin of sin. What's its root?

The problem with noncalvinists is that they don't see the lie as something as repulsive and abhorrent as molestation, or as something as having a more detrimental effect (or really something needing atonement), but the lie is why a child is molested in the first place. The lie is what corrupted Adam and Eve, and the lie came from outside. Yes, Adam was created good, but he was not created incorruptible. (Neither were the angels, it seems.) One can be forgiven for molesting a child, but not for bearing false witness against the Holy Ghost.

So where did the lie originate?

Is Satan called the father of pedophiles, or the father of lies?

(Winman gets the prize.)

 

[DHK]

I have answered it.

Here's the question: "Who is the first person who thought of the heinous sin of molesting and torturing a small child?"

My answer paraphrased: The issue isn't child molestation (which, despite his statement to the contrary, Skandelon posed for it's shock and abhorrence factor) but the origin of sin. What's its root?

The problem with noncalvinists is that they don't see the lie as something as repulsive and abhorrent as molestation, or as something as having a more detrimental effect (or really something needing atonement), but the lie is why a child is molested in the first place. The lie is what corrupted Adam and Eve, and the lie came from outside. Yes, Adam was created good, but he was not created incorruptible. (Neither were the angels, it seems.) One can be forgiven for molesting a child, but not for bearing false witness against the Holy Ghost.

So where did the lie originate?

Is Satan called the father of pedophiles, or the father of lies?

(Winman gets the prize.)

It appears you have tied the hands of God. He is powerless.
On the other hand I believe that God is omnipotent--all powerful. That is what I believe the Bible teaches about God, contrary to what you have posted. You believes that God cannot forgive certain sins. I believe that there is no sin so great that God cannot forgive. You have a wrong interpretation of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." You fail theology class. There is no sin so great that God cannot forgive. You have tied the hands of God and made him an impotent puppet.

 

[Aaron]

You believes that God cannot forgive certain sins.

Semantics. "Shall not," if you prefahs.

 

[Amy.G]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Sin entered the world through Adam. Satan's sin was in heaven.



James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



God does not tempt or make man sin. Man sins of his own volition according to his lustful desires.




Thus sayeth the Lord.

 

[DHK]

Semantics. "Shall not," if you prefahs.

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)
There is no sin too great that God cannot forgive. He is not impotent.
I feel sorry for you.

 

[Amy.G]

I hope Luke will attempt to answer the question of the OP.

 

[The Archangel]

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Sin entered the world through Adam. Satan's sin was in heaven.



James 1:13-15 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.



God does not tempt or make man sin. Man sins of his own volition according to his lustful desires.




Thus sayeth the Lord.

Amy,

I've got to say...wait for it...that I agree with what you've written here.

One thing way too many people try to do is to say "the devil made me do it," as if sin is something not endemic to us after the fall. The fact of the matter is this: Even as a Christian, I have many besetting sins that are still present. I fight against them. Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose, but I do fight. But this is a war with my flesh, not with a little devil perched on my shoulder whispering evil thoughts into my head. The evil that I do comes out of my heart--and it is the same for everyone after Adam and Eve sinned.

Good words, Amy. Thank you.

The Archangel

 

[Amy.G]

Amy,

I've got to say...wait for it...that I agree with what you've written here.

One thing way too many people try to do is to say "the devil made me do it," as if sin is something not endemic to us after the fall. The fact of the matter is this: Even as a Christian, I have many besetting sins that are still present. I fight against them. Sometimes I win, sometimes I loose, but I do fight. But this is a war with my flesh, not with a little devil perched on my shoulder whispering evil thoughts into my head. The evil that I do comes out of my heart--and it is the same for everyone after Adam and Eve sinned.

Good words, Amy. Thank you.

The Archangel

Praise the Lord! Only He can bring unity! Thank you for the kind words.

 

[HankD]

My 2 cents:

Lucifer's sin seems to be of a different nature than Adam's.

Adam and his race (us) have redemption where apparently the devil and his angels do not.

I have no scripture but it seems Satan's motive was to hurt God by corrupting His creation of Adam and Eve which bore His image and likeness.

Adam's motive which seems somewhat elusive does not appear to be hatred of God.

He was not deceived but he ate the fruit anyway.

Wasn't satan's lie "thou shalt not surely die"?

The part about knowing good and evil was accurate:

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

What was Adam's motive?
Did he want to know good and evil even if he had to die?
Did he choose the creature (Eve) over the Creator?

I know folks say satan's sin was pride but I think it was hatred of God and evidently wouldn't want to be saved even if it were offered to him.

That God made man in His own image and likeness, gave them gender and reproductive power (procreation) and then gave them dominion over the earth was the last straw for satan and his jealousy and hatred rippened into murder. He couldn't murder God so he went after those who bore His image.

Am I all wet?

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.​

HankD