A close look at Rom 11 !

[Dr. Walter]

dw



Until you deal with post 133 with scripture, you are shown a liar..I am not going to explain nothing else to you, until you prove your comment,which post 133 refers to.

Would you please point out the post that you took that comment from? I cannot find it and I have searched the last three of my posts before your #133 post.

Are you suggesting that this particular quote contradicts my repeated distinction between the metaphorical and literal distinction of "seed" that has characterized my past six or seven posts???? You are asking me to prove that statment by scritpures as though I do not believe the phrase "seed of Abraham" has two distinct applications?

I believe that you have already proven it is used in the PHYSICAL sense to ethnic Israel. You have offered no historical evidence that it is used in a PHSYICAL sense for Gentile elect from all nations? Wonder why you can't provide any historical evidence? Is it because there is none? If so, then you have also proven that in the PHYSICAL sense the phrase "seed of Abraham" is never used except for ethnic Israel in scriptures.

Since we both agree it is used for PHYSICAL "seed of Abraham" it seems you are the one that must prove that Abraham is the PHYSICAL "father" of all gentile nations from which Gentile elect come from in order to prove that the "seed of Abraham" is ever used of Gentile elect in a PHYSICAL sense.

You cannot do that and that is precisely why you are asking me to prove that in the PHYSICAL sense it is only used of ethnic Israel. I have offered proof that Abraham's Physical seed never produced the negroid nations or the slavic nations, the germanic nations, or even all the Semetic nations. Hence, that is proof you are wrong and that is proof that the PHYSICAL sense of "seed of Abraham" is never used in the scriptures for any other people then the ethnic nation of Israel - deal with it.

 

[savedbymercy]

dw

Would you please point out the post that you took that comment from? I

For the last time, post 133. If you cannot derive from that what I am talking about that is too bad. Then after that, deal with my comments in post 134, you avoided that post as well.

 

[Dr. Walter]

dw



For the last time, post 133. If you cannot derive from that what I am talking about that is too bad. Then after that, deal with my comments in post 134, you avoided that post as well.

You are a very DISHONEST individual. Your post #133 gives no reference to where you quoted those words. Hence, I cannot determine if you quoted them accurately, out of context or what. I have asked you twice and you cannot produce the origin of your quotation. You know that quote in context has reference to my view of these words concerning the PHYSICAL application so why are you playing this silly game? I will tell you why because you cannot provide any evidence that it is PHYSCALLY applied to Gentile elect - that is why you are being totally dishonest here. I will tell you why because you cannot refute the METAPHORICAL evidence I provided - It is irrefutable and you know it.

You are a very DISHONEST individual. You know fully well I have answered Post #134 many times over (#135,137)and yet it is YOU that has not answered my posts AT ALL! BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T.

Try being HONEST for a change and FORTHRIGHT!

 

[savedbymercy]

You guys trying to understand all these OT scriptures/Prophesy, when God has given Paul the wisdom to understand them and apply them to the New Covenant. I don't believe none of us have the wisdom that Paul has of the OT and Israel, so it would be wise to follow His Teaching on Israel, especially Rom chapter 11, instead of trying to fit them into your own natural understanding. A lot of the things the OT Prophets uttered, they did not themselves understand, and things that were meant for those under the New Covenant.

1 Pet 1:10-12

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the Glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[Dr. Walter]

You guys trying to understand all these OT scriptures/Prophesy, when God has given Paul the wisdom to understand them and apply them to the New Covenant. I don't believe none of us have the wisdom that Paul has of the OT and Israel, so it would be wise to follow His Teaching on Israel, especially Rom chapter 11, instead of trying to fit them into your own natural understanding.

This is EXCELLENT advice. But advice YOU HAVE YET TO FOLLOW! You have not followed this advice since verse 1 in Romans 11. Instead of allowingPaul to interpret his own words by the words he places before and after, you simply quote a verse and then DEPART from Paul's word's placed in Paul's context and try to FORCE external texts back into Paul's text!

JUST TRY FOLLOWING YOUR OWN ADVICE FOR ONCE!

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 11:28-29

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

So Paul tells the elect gentiles that National Israel [most of the ethnic jews in the Nation] they are enemies to the Gospel, in the purpose of God, in order that He may Justly graft them into Covenant Israel [ The Election of Grace of Ethnic jews] and then he adds that according to the election [ The Election of Grace of Ethnic jews] they are Beloved for the Father's Sake.

Now even though the Nation of Israel has been broken off as God's National Covenant people, this by no means will cause God not to be Faithful to those ethnic jews who are the called according to His Purpose [ Rom 8:28,29 ; 9:24 ], those who are foreknown [Rom 11:2] God's cutting off of the Nation did not mean He no longer had those that He loved [as individuals] with an Everlasting Love through Christ, in the Physical Nation, No as was mentioned earlier, there is even now within her a remnant according to the election of grace [ Rom 11:5] For God providentially arranged that for the Father's sake [ Abraham] there is still a remnant of Abraham's natural seed, remaining in the election of grace.

Also in the same balance, because of the long ago prophecy of the conversion of the gentiles, the hardening [ also prophesied] of the greater portion of Abraham's natural seed was also without repentance, for that is how God purposed [ Acts 15:17-18] to Give His Gift of Salvation to the Gentiles, through their hardening and unbelief. So God is being Faithful to His gifts and callings towards both the Jews and the Gentiles. Within the cut off nation there would remain a remnant of the election of grace, and because of the cutting off of the nation, God grafted in the election of grace from among the Gentiles, Oh what Wisdom God has displayed.

 

[savedbymercy]

Rom 11:30

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:


Before the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, gentiles [save for a few of the election of grace] were in the same blindness and ignorance [ Eph 4:18; Acts 17:30] that the now National Israel is in. Even though National Israel had many advantages [ Rom 3:1-2] they were just as spiritually Ignorant of God as gentiles who had not the same advantage.

The Jews are called Ignorant here Rom 10:1-3

1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

They were just as ignorant as these Acts 17:23


23For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Ignorance of God is Ignorance of God, does not matter if you are really religious and pious in your ignorance, as its seen here with both jews and gentiles.

But God was [by plan and purpose] using Israel's unbelief and grafting in Gentiles who do believe, So God's Justice on one group was His mercy on the other [ see Rom 11:22]; And Just as God used the unbelief of National Israel to fulfill His purpose for the ingrafting and call of the elect gentiles into Covenant Israel [ see Eph 2:19], So likewise He can and will call the elect Jews back into Covenant Israel [ as Individuals not as the whole Nation] it is a remnant. All ethnic Jews are not cursed and cut off from God's covenant promises, just because the nation as a whole is; However their conversion[ elect jews] will come about primarily through the Gentiles as predicted here Isa 61:6

6But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

compare with Rom 11:12

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
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[savedbymercy]

To say that Abraham did not have a Spiritual seed is absolutely nonsense, for was not Paul writing to gentiles when he wrote these words Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now we know that Gentiles could never be Abraham's seed physically! So this must be Spiritually, so , if Abraham has a Spiritual seed, why not there be a Spiritual Israel ? Is not physical Israel, Abraham's physical seed ? Then I see no reason why His Spiritual seed is not Spiritual Israel !


Are not the Jews the children of Abraham by being of His physical seed ? Matt 3:9

9And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. [ These stones would be gentile elect]

God was not Limited to physical jews being the seed of Abraham.

Jn 8:37

37I know that ye are Abraham's seed [Physical children]; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Now, are not Gentiles Children of Abraham by Faith in Christ ? Gal 3:7
7
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

If so, then its appropiate to say they are Jews by Faith in Christ, for they are the Children of Abraham.

For the whole reality of being called Israel or a Jew, is founded upon being Abraham's children or seed, whether physically or Spiritually, and for this reason we have scriptures like Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Notice now, paul is saying in essence in vs 28a, mere physical descent of Abraham, no more constitutes one a Jew in Gods sight.

Rom 9:6-8

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God [Or Israel]: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed [Israel].

Gal 6:16

16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
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[savedbymercy]

Rom 11:31

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

As God used the jews unbelief [ national israel] as the occasion to graft into Covenant Israel, the Elect Gentiles [see Acts 15:14] God will also use the preaching of the gospel to reach Elect Jews, remember Paul said 1 Cor 9:19-22

19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.

20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

So through the mercy of the Gentile Church, a elect remnant of ethnic jews will come to a Saving Knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ
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[savedbymercy]

Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

For God hath concluded all men [jew and gentile] in unbelief, in order that He can demonstrate His Sovereign Mercy upon all men [ Jew and Gentile], for it was always God's purpose to have His Sovereign Mercy Glorified outside of National Israel.

You see, what Abraham's physical offspring did not know, was that God had given Abraham a seed [Spiritually] that was comprised of all nations Gen 17:5

5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

That was the First seed God called Him to believe in !
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[savedbymercy]

Rom 11:33

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Eph 3:8-11

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:


Paul after musing upon this great Mystery of Israel, The Israel of God, and how God was able to graft in the world [ Gentiles] into Covenant Israel [The Spiritual seed of Abraham] , and Save all Israel was a matter of High Praise and admiration of Gods Judgments and Wisdom.

Rev 7:9-12

9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
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[savedbymercy]

Romans 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

It was not even about God having forsaken His People [ whom He foreknew Rom 11:1-2] nor His word of Promise to them [ Israel], it was just that the nation and people today never understood who God's True People or Israel really was, and to whom the Eternal Promises were made.

Paul was shown some light about something, that most, even Christ other disciples did not know at first, and that was "They are not Israel which are of Israel" !
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[savedbymercy]

Gal 3:16

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Where the dispensationalist and others have gone astray, it is in that they don't consider Christ, for Christ is the key to scripture and unlocks it's treasures, this however He does only for His own Matt 13:10-12

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?


11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

To all others the scriptures is in riddles to them, even though they do not know it, because God is pleased for them to believe a Lie. 2 Thess 2:11.

The Mystery of Christ Col 2:2

2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Now I know that the Church is a Mystery of Christ Eph 3, but there is also a Mystery about the Person of Christ. He is God, He is Man, He is Israel !

It is only through Abraham's seed Christ [Gal 3:16] that anyone is constituted Israel, as in the Israel of God.


Isa 49:-6


2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished *****; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Just being born physically or naturally of Abraham or Jacob, did not make one of the True Israel [Christ] Rom 9:6

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Basically Paul is saying, Not all of National Israel is of Israel [ Christ]; But if one, whether ethnic jew or non ethnic jew has been Chosen in Christ [ The True Israel] they are in and of Israel.
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