A Complaint About A Lack of Logic

[Calminian]

Yes. This is obvious. Immortal people do not die (hence the term "immortal".... meaning.... well... that one never dies).

Adam died. Adam was not immortal. We "put on immortality" (1 Cor 15).

But if you have a verse stating Adam was immortal (never died) then by all means post it.

That Adam became immortal after the fall does not mean he was not made to be immortal, originally.

Creation today is not very good. That does not mean it was never very good.

 

[JonC]

That Adam became immortal after the fall does not mean he was not made to be immortal, originally.

Creation today is not very good. That does not mean it was never very good.

You mean mortal (became mortal after the Fall) .

All I know is if Adam was immortal he would never have died (that is the definition of "immortal).

Also, Scripture does not define" good" as "immortal". If Adam ate if the land it is very possible that plants died (were not immortal). This does not mean plants were bad.

God created Adam flesh, upright and good. I do not see a passage stating God created Adam immortal.

I leave that type of "theology" to you guys. It is over my head, so l'll just stick with what is written (not what might have been).

 

[Calminian]

You mean mortal (became mortal after the Fall) .

Yes. Thanks, for catching that.

All I know is if Adam was immortal he would never have died (that is the definition of "immortal).

You're being slippery, clinging to a technicality. Scripture says believers have moved from death to life.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

Would you argue Jesus was technically wrong because if one has life, he was technically never dead?

Also, Scripture does not define" good" as "immortal". If Adam ate if the land it is very possible that plants died (were not immortal). This does not mean plants were bad.

Plants aren't alive in the Biblical sense. They don't have nephesh. And Scripture defines death as the enemy. Yes, death bad, life good.

God created Adam flesh, upright and good. I do not see a passage stating God created Adam immortal.

Gen. 1:31, 2:17. It's an easy conclusion.

I leave that type of "theology" to you guys. It is over my head....

Give it time. Just takes some study. It's actually really elementary stuff, even kids can understand.

 

[JonC]

Yes. Thanks, for catching that.



You're being slippery, clinging to a technicality. Scripture says believers have moved from death to life.

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.​

Would you argue Jesus was technically wrong because if one has life, he was technically never dead?



Plants aren't alive in the Biblical sense. They don't have nephesh. And Scripture defines death as the enemy. Yes, death bad, life good.



Gen. 1:31, 2:17. It's an easy conclusion.



Give it time. Just takes some study. It's actually really elementary stuff, even kids can understand.

Had Jesus referred to the flesh, then yes, He would have been wrong. But Jesus spoke of the necessity of being born of the Spirit (that which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the Spirit is Spirit; the flesh beats flesh and the spirit beats spirit).

I know that the Bible says God created Adam flesh. I am unaware where the Bible says God created Adam immortal or spirit.

I actually understand what you are saying although I argue this way. I took for granted Adam was made to live forever but experienced a change (I would have said died spiritually).

After much study I no longer hold that view but am apways open to passages I may have missed.

As it stands I believe Adam was placed in the Garden and given the command to show his nature (the flesh) in comparison to God's (Spirit). I believe the entire point of Creation was God's glory.

 

[Calminian]

Had Jesus referred to the flesh, then yes, He would have been wrong. But Jesus spoke of the necessity of being born of the Spirit (that which is of the flesh is flesh and that which is of the Spirit is Spirit; the flesh beats flesh and the spirit beats spirit).

I'm amazed how complicated you're making this. It's too simple,

I know that the Bible says God created Adam flesh. I am unaware where the Bible says God created Adam immortal or spirit.

And I don't know how you missed it. It's simple.

Don't do this. If you do, you will die.

You read this as, Adam was flesh, therefore he proved he would have sinned no matter what? Jesus was also flesh. This is the old gnostic argument, flesh v. spirit.

Paul understood it this way. Through one man, many were made sinners. Not many were proven sinners.

I actually understand what you are saying although I argue this way. I took for granted Adam was made to live forever but experienced a change (I would have said died spiritually).

After much study I no longer hold that view but am apways open to passages I may have missed.

Then I would like to know what in the world you studied? And where? Why would you trade such an obvious easy straightforward rendering for something complicated? The only conclusion I can come to is seminary.

As it stands I believe Adam was placed in the Garden and given the command to show his nature (the flesh) in comparison to God's (Spirit). I believe the entire point of Creation was God's glory.

Then be consistent. Do you also believe the gospel was given to us to show we didn't need saving in the first place? Was eternal life offered to prove we were alive all along?

 

[JonC]

I'm amazed how complicated you're making this. It's too simple,



And I don't know how you missed it. It's simple.

Don't do this. If you do, you will die.

You read this as, Adam was flesh, therefore he proved he would have sinned no matter what? Jesus was also flesh. This is the old gnostic argument, flesh v. spirit.

Paul understood it this way. Through one man, many were made sinners. Not many were proven sinners.



Then I would like to know what in the world you studied? And where? Why would you trade such an obvious easy straightforward rendering for something complicated? The only conclusion I can come to is seminary.



Then be consistent. Do you also believe the gospel was given to us to show we didn't need saving in the first place? Was eternal life offered to prove we were alive all along?

No. I believe anytime we are commanded to obey God it shows us our dependency on God.

I believe Christ to be the Lamb slain from the foundation of tbe world. That is Who He is, even before Adam was created. Do you are dealing with a hypothesis (if Adam did not sin).

The problem with assuming Adam was immortal until he was not is it is not in Scripture. God told Adam if he ate he would die. You assume the opposite to be true.

This is called denying the antecedent, or fallacy of the inverse.

It is a logical fallacy (which is ironic given the thread title).

 

[1689Dave]

I have been reading comments in the thread about Pelaganists, whatever that is, and in the attempt to define terms and justify positions and some false doctrines like total depravity and other doctrines, Adam is very much maligned and misrepresented. For instance there are people on this forum that disagree on what changed about Adam when he sinned. The texts tells us clearly and plainly what was different about him and other parts of scripture gives additional information.

Here is what the text says changed about him.

1) He died
2) His eyes were opened that he could know good and evil

Ge 3:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

This is all that we know that changed. It seems that Adam knew more, not less, as Calvinism teaches.

Here is the logic. If this is the source of the problem between God and man and Jesus Christ is the fix, can we not look at what Jesus Christ our Lord did and have a good idea about everything in between.

First of all, the death, burial, and resurrection of the second man and the last Adam, Jesus Christ, made living possible where men were dead.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Logic: these people who God wants to give eternal life through Jesus Christ are not in the graveyard covered with dirt. They are people who are walking around, having families, and living life. However, they must be dead in some way or why would anyone want to make a live person alive if he is already alive?

Any chance they would be dead in the same way Adam was dead in the day he sinned but before he was put in a grave 930 years later? Is the life that God wants to give as a gift different than the life Adam possessed before he died in the day he sinned? Here is what God said about Adam when he created him.

Gen 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here is what we are told in Job;

Job 33:4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Here is the fix after the resurrection;

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Adam before the fall was in the image of God (trinity) Born in Adam we are in the image of Adam (body and soul) after the fall. Born of God, we are in the image of Jesus Christ (trinity soul body Spirit) who is the image of God (Father Son Holy Ghost).

All beings who have the Spirit are sons of God. Adam was the son of God before the fall.See Lk 3:38.He is the only man who was, until Jesus Christ was born. God gave the Spirit to him without measure and from his conception.

This is logical as well as true. All this election stuff and total depravity and only certain people are chosen of God to be saved is giant red wheels and is confusion. It is tragic!

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Gen 5:1This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:
4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

This is simple if you think about it.

“And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, ‘Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, “Know for a certain that on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die?” And thou saidst unto me, “The word that I have heard is good”.” 1 Kings 2:42 (NCPB)

Yet he did not die on the same day he did this.

“So the king commanded Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; which went out, and fell upon him, that he died. And the kingdom was established in the hand of Solomon.” (1 Kings 2:46)

This means the threat of death became irreversible on the day he sinned even though carried out much later.


It helps me understand Genesis in Adam's case,

 

[Dave G]

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I've bolded and underlined the sections of what you've quoted here, so that you can more easily see it.
Yes, Christ is the true image of God...
But according to this, who is the Gospel hidden from, and why?

Think about it, JD.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I've bolded and underlined the sections of what you've quoted here, so that you can more easily see it.
Yes, Christ is the true image of God...
But according to this, who is the Gospel hidden from, and why?

Think about it, JD.

its hid from those that believe not

I've bolded and underlined the sections of what you've quoted here, so that you can more easily see it.
Yes, Christ is the true image of God...
But according to this, who is the Gospel hidden from, and why?

Think about it, JD.

its Satan that has blinded . Question if people are born blind to the Gosepl how and why is Satan blinding? why does he have a ministry of blinding already blind people ? should he not take a break , Gods already done the work for him .
Satan has blinded those that give themselves over to him..But no where does it say they cannot reach for him and find him . Man has more than one sense . He can turn from idols and believe the Gosepl when HEARD . A man can realise his depravity . The Holy Spirit Convicts the WORLD ( BLIND and the deaf ) of Sin because of smoking and drinking , cussing and stealing ? no
8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9Of sin, because they believe not on me;
2cor 4

 

[JD731]

“And the king sent and called for Shimei, and said unto him, ‘Did I not make thee to swear by the LORD, and protested unto thee, saying, “Know for a certain that on the day thou goest out, and walkest abroad any whither, that thou shalt surely die?” And thou saidst unto me, “The word that I have heard is good”.” 1 Kings 2:42 (NCPB)

Yet he did not die on the same day he did this.

“So the king commanded Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; which went out, and fell upon him, that he died. And the kingdom was established in the hand of Solomon.” (1 Kings 2:46)

This means the threat of death became irreversible on the day he sinned even though carried out much later.


It helps me understand Genesis in Adam's case,

Shemei is not where one would go to explain dying in the context of the "image of God." He was a bi-partite man. Adam was a tri-partite man. For Adam to die takes a separation of God from the man. Shemei suffered a separation of body and soul which ended his ability to function in the physical realm. That is not what happened to Adam in the garden. He still functioned quite well after he died spiritually. I am told there are about 7 billion proofs living on the earth as we speak.

The only other man who ever lived on this earth between Adam and those disciples in John 20 whom our Lord Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost into,who were ever in the image of God, if one accepts that the image of God means trinitarian, is Jesus Christ, who, John the Baptist said was given the Spirit without measure from his beginning. These two also are the only men who were ever called "the son of God." John the apostles said this in his epistle;

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I have a hard time understanding how some of you approach the words of scripture. It is like you don't see certain words in a text. A birth by the Spirit makes a son of Adam a son of God. This is the only way a man becomes a son of God. It really is a birth and it makes the person someone new and different than before.This is elementary.

If Adam had the Spirit after he sinned, why all this effort of God th renew a man through a "regeneration?"

Come and let us reason together, says God. Apply some logic. These truths are simple until religion gets a hold of them.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No. I believe anytime we are commanded to obey God it shows us our dependency on God.

I believe Christ to be the Lamb slain from the foundation of tbe world. That is Who He is, even before Adam was created. Do you are dealing with a hypothesis (if Adam did not sin).

The problem with assuming Adam was immortal until he was not is it is not in Scripture. God told Adam if he ate he would die. You assume the opposite to be true.

This is called denying the antecedent, or fallacy of the inverse.

It is a logical fallacy (which is ironic given the thread title).

So what we have is God saying to Adam, "If you eat the fruit, you're going to die; and if you don't, you're still going to die."
I don't what what sort of fallacy people with a fancy education call that, but it surely is a fallacy.

A simple reading of Romans 5:12-21 is all that one needs.

 

[Yeshua1]

So what we have is God saying to Adam, "If you eat the fruit, you're going to die; and if you don't, you're still going to die."
I don't what what sort of fallacy people with a fancy education call that, but it surely is a fallacy.

A simple reading of Romans 5:12-21 is all that one needs.

Before the Fall caused by His sin, Adam would have lived on, as no death would have been there upon him as of yet!

 

[1689Dave]

Shemei is not where one would go to explain dying in the context of the "image of God." He was a bi-partite man. Adam was a tri-partite man. For Adam to die takes a separation of God from the man. Shemei suffered a separation of body and soul which ended his ability to function in the physical realm. That is not what happened to Adam in the garden. He still functioned quite well after he died spiritually. I am told there are about 7 billion proofs living on the earth as we speak.

The only other man who ever lived on this earth between Adam and those disciples in John 20 whom our Lord Jesus breathed the Holy Ghost into,who were ever in the image of God, if one accepts that the image of God means trinitarian, is Jesus Christ, who, John the Baptist said was given the Spirit without measure from his beginning. These two also are the only men who were ever called "the son of God." John the apostles said this in his epistle;

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

I have a hard time understanding how some of you approach the words of scripture. It is like you don't see certain words in a text. A birth by the Spirit makes a son of Adam a son of God. This is the only way a man becomes a son of God. It really is a birth and it makes the person someone new and different than before.This is elementary.

If Adam had the Spirit after he sinned, why all this effort of God th renew a man through a "regeneration?"

Come and let us reason together, says God. Apply some logic. These truths are simple until religion gets a hold of them.

My topic is understanding what is meant by "the day you eat you shall die." Everybody is in God's image. The same phrase used elsewhere in scripture for comparison.

 

[JonC]

So what we have is God saying to Adam, "If you eat the fruit, you're going to die; and if you don't, you're still going to die."
I don't what what sort of fallacy people with a fancy education call that, but it surely is a fallacy.

A simple reading of Romans 5:12-21 is all that one needs.

No. We have God telling Adam that if he eats of the fruit he will surely die (death would be certain).

The topic of the OP (the title) involves a lack of logic.

It is a formal logical fallacy to assume that God's words that if Adam eats of the fruit he will surely die also mean that if Adam does not eat of the fruit he would not die. This is by definition a logical fallacy. We do not know what would have happened if Adam did not eat of the fruit (he could have been disobedient in some other way; God could have introduced death differently....we just can't make assumptions).

Romans 5:12-21 is all we need in terms of knowing what happened BUT the verse does not provide for the fallacy that you are suggesting here. It is faulty thinking based on assumption. You are assuming a conclusion unaddressed by God, unaddressed in Scripture, and separated from actual reality (from what has happened). Worse, you have twisted Scripture inversely to try and justify the error.

Another example (hopefully to shed some light on your mistake) -

If I tell my son "If you do not clean your room you are grounded" and he cleans his room but is ticketed for speeding he will still be grounded. Your "logic" demands my son can do anything as long as he cleans his room and escape the punishment. It is a logical fallacy.

 

[JD731]

I notice that you didn't address Romans 5 in your post. That seems a rather egregious omission.

Romans 5 says "death" passed upon all men "because" all have sinned.Paul was dealing with all men born of Adam from Gen 3 until AD 58 when he wrote this letter. Standing back and observing it, he reported in three distinct time frames. Frame one - from Adam to Moses. Frame 2 - from Moses to Jesus Christ resurrected. Farme 3 - from Jesus Christ until AD 58.
The thing that Paul did not say is that "sin" passed upon all men because all died. That is the way it is often presented by Calvinists when they teach their original sin doctrine and other false doctrines. Paul said sin was in the world and ruled unto death as a king would rule over his subjects. We learn from the scriptures that men born in the image of Adam, those with a bi-partite nature, body and soul, do not have power to resist sin and all succumb to it. This is the image of the fallen Adam.

However, Jesus Christ was not born in the image of Adam. He was born in the image of God. He was God. He is God.He is also man.The testimony that we have of Jesus Christ is that in him, that is in his mortal body (it could die) was "life." We learn what life in this context is when we study our scriptures, written by men who communed with Jesus Christ for over 3 years.

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This is not written conversationally. This is the doctrines of life and salvation.What is said and how it is said is important.

Jesus Christ, our saviour, died just as Adam died and for the same reason. It was for sin. In Adam's case, it was for the sin of Eve, who is a picture of the church. Both of these men died spiritually first, meaning the Spirit departed their bodies. This is symbolized by the blood and water flowing from the pierced side of Jesus Christ when he was on the cross. The life of the flesh is in the blood, scripture tells us. The Spirit is life, the scripture says in Rom 8:9. The difference between Adam and Jesus is that Adam died for sins he committed and Jesus died for the sins of others, and God raised him from the dead, by the Spirit that he poured out.Anticipating this, that the Spirit that lived in him would give life after his resurrection from the dead, he said this to the Jews;

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified)

Jesus said this to Martha in John 11:25

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Think about that. People before the resurrection of Jesus Christ are dead but that does not mean they are in a tomb somewhere covered up with dirt and unable to reason or to use logic. The idea is absurd.

Here is something Paul tells us that is true of Adam;

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Adam knew God face to face. He knew as he was known. He did not have partial knowledge of God. He knew that God was merciful and good. When Eve sinned Adam opted to participate in her sin in order to save her. He was not deceived about anything. He knew he would die. But he knew God would save them both. God has nothing bad in his bible to say about Adam. He is the type God gives us in the OT to typify his Son taking the sin of his bride, whom he had taken and fashioned from his body, upon himself in order to save her from it.

Greater love has no man than this, that a man would lay down his life for his friends.

The life that is in the glorified body of Jesus Christ is not blood. All his blood is on the mercy seat in heaven. The life that flows in the body of Jesus Christ is his Spirit and he has poured it out on humanity as water and in such abundance that whoever drinks will have eternal life.

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, we are told. One must have the Spirit of life. The Spirit of Christ. This is what it means to be in the image of Jesus Christ.

17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

This is an invitation to all, not a few. Drinking is believing from the heart.

TYPES
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

 

[JD731]

You mean mortal (became mortal after the Fall) .

All I know is if Adam was immortal he would never have died (that is the definition of "immortal).

Also, Scripture does not define" good" as "immortal". If Adam ate if the land it is very possible that plants died (were not immortal). This does not mean plants were bad.

God created Adam flesh, upright and good. I do not see a passage stating God created Adam immortal.

I leave that type of "theology" to you guys. It is over my head, so l'll just stick with what is written (not what might have been).

Adam was not "sealed" with the Spirit, as believers today are.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ep 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

 

[JonC]

Adam was not "sealed" with the Spirit, as believers today are.


Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ep 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

I agree. Adam, Noah, Moses, the Prophets, and even the Disciples pre-Pentecost were not "sealed" with the Spirit.

 

[JD731]

My topic is understanding what is meant by "the day you eat you shall die." Everybody is in God's image. The same phrase used elsewhere in scripture for comparison.

Differentiate between these two statements;


Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

 

[JD731]

I've bolded and underlined the sections of what you've quoted here, so that you can more easily see it.
Yes, Christ is the true image of God...
But according to this, who is the Gospel hidden from, and why?

Think about it, JD.

This is actually a very good question, and because I am a literalist in my hermeneutics, I am going to consider context first.

Those who are lost are the Jews in this context. I can prove that.

Please bear with me because in closing this post I am going to quote quite a bit of scripture to prove what I am about to say.

One cannot read the gospels and not understand that Israel's eyes were blinded and they could not see because they failed to believe in Jesus Christ when he came to them as their Messiah. What blinded Israel. It was the parables by which he addressed them after the first 12 chapters of Matthew. This included most of his ministry to them while he lived on earth.They would never understand these parables because it takes God to reveal their truths.

You might say, God should have spoken plainly to the Jews. I say he did speak plainly to them;


John 10:24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

God spoke in parables to that generation of Jews because salvation for them nationally was now off the table.He would be dealing with individuals and giving them his truths through a spiritual means; parables.

Matt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Here is a truth for you. Only those of Israel can be lost. Gentiles are unsaved. God has not lost them.

Paul, the apostle to the gentiles used this word "lost" one time, and you and I have been quoting it in 2 Cor 4. The context is Jews. Read all these verses following for proof;

2 Cor 3: Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The next word is "THEREFORE"

2 Cor 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

The pronouns are important here.

 

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. . . false doctrines like total depravity . . .

How do you understand Romans 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."?