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A complete Bible is NOT necessary to trust God, nor for preservation!

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NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry if that quote came across the way it did. All I'm trying to say is the internet is FILLED with people "arguing" over this very subject. Not one person that I have seen has changed their opinion after thousands of posts. My point is, I believe the way I do, I don't understand how some can believe the way they do (it's illogical to me), but I'm not going to get angry with them for what they believe, either. So continuing this discussion is pointless, and gets tiresome.

This is key. I, for the life of me, cannot understand the concept that we can pick one translation out of the many works done and then insist that this translation, and this translation alone, is the perfect translation. I can't even see how someone can hold to that view.

And yet, that does not mean that those who think that way are dishonest or piglike in their ignorance.

It simply means that my brother and I see things differently. The scriptures say nothing about translations. We don't know which body of manuscripts is best. Therefore neither of us can claim some kind of higher ground and condemn the other.

We will know the truth one day. In the meantime would we not be best to allow each other the liberty to hold their own view without questioning their motivation, honesty, or integrity?
 

dwmoeller1

New Member
I call it COMMON SENSE.:thumbsup:



:wavey:

Fallacies often seem like common sense, but they remain fallacies nonetheless. :) For one, it is possible that *none* are the true version as you understand it.

When we lack the original copies, and especially when we are dealing with translations, any argument which insists that one and one version only can hold the position of God's true word is begging the question.
 
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Baptist4life

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is key. I, for the life of me, cannot understand the concept that we can pick one translation out of the many works done and then insist that this translation, and this translation alone, is the perfect translation. I can't even see how someone can hold to that view.

And yet, that does not mean that those who think that way are dishonest or piglike in their ignorance.

It simply means that my brother and I see things differently. The scriptures say nothing about translations. We don't know which body of manuscripts is best. Therefore neither of us can claim some kind of higher ground and condemn the other.

We will know the truth one day. In the meantime would we not be best to allow each other the liberty to hold their own view without questioning their motivation, honesty, or integrity?

Exactly what I was trying to say, only you said it better! :thumbsup:
 

sag38

Active Member
B4L basically labeled that those who did see the situation as he did as not having common sense. In another thread he called a lot of posters "ridiculous. I was simply trying to mirror the sentiment projected by B4L in an attempt to point out a double standard.

As a pastor, if a church wanted me to preach and teach exclusively from the KJV I would with the understanding that I would not promote the KJV as being the only legitimate Bible. Nor, would I tolerate that kind of teaching in the church. When a church or individual becomes KJVO, putting a translation on a pedestal, it can quickly become divisive.
 
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Mexdeaf

New Member
Let's get back to the OP, shall we?

Is a complete, perfect Bible (let me just add 'sans footnotes', since that seems to be a problem for some) necessary for one to trust God and to fulfill God's promises of preservation?

I am not speaking of English translations, per se. There people on this board who use other language translations- myself and John of Japan, to name two.


http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=67950
 

sag38

Active Member
If one needed a complete Bible to be saved then why do we print NT only Bibles or print individual books of the Bible to give away on street corners or on evangelistic visits? Why would we lift individual verses out of the Bible and and use them to witness to a lost person? Did Phillip have a NT Bible when he witnessed to the Ethiopian? The verses from Isaiah served the purpose.
 

glfredrick

New Member
I'm not sure of the passages or verses you are referring to but I'll assume you are talking about the end of Mark 16 and other passages that appear or don't appear in scripture. I would ask, "do any of these disputed passages stand alone in support of any essential Christian doctrine?" I would argue that these disputed passages are not critical to the whole of scripture and we can disagree on these without damaging the gospel.

Well said!

No doctrine of Christianity is in doubt or in contention because of one of the disputed passages, and every translation makes note (as do the Greek and Hebrew texts underlying those translations) of the textual issues at hand.

Anyone actually pick up a Nestle/Aland Greek NT and read those textual comments? I have... Most informative, and we should be thanking and praising God for faithful scholars who work hard to learn the nuances of the text, in context, so that they can strive under God's leadership to give us the most accurate Word possible.

Instead, we become "accusers of the brethren" -- a tool of the enemy of God -- to beat up our brothers and sisters over some issue that is not an issue at all.

About evangelism and having a "complete" Bible... Paul did not seem to think so. His followers were probably more evangelistic than any of us, and they may (may!) have had a copy of the OT Scriptures, and a letter or two from Paul in hand. Peter saw 3000 saved on Pentecost and none of them had a complete Bible. As has already been said above, we hand out tracts with Paul's letter to the Romans, or the Gospel of John, and more so, we evangelize with individual verses...

Once a person is saved, should they have the entire Bible to learn, love, and follow? Of course! If, that is, they can. We often take that for granted in America. I have an entire book case filled with various translations and paraphrase versions of the Bible. I also have computer software that combined offers me almost 100 different variations, translations, language editions, etc. I take for granted that I will always have a Bible at hand. I even have an app on my Blackberry. But I also know missionaries who have trekked through China who handed out PAGES from their own Bible and watched as the Christians wept over actually having in their hands just one page to memorize, study, and live.
 
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Mexdeaf

New Member
Once a person is saved, should they have the entire Bible to learn, love, and follow? Of course! If, that is, they can. We often take that for granted in America. I have an entire book case filled with various translations and paraphrase versions of the Bible. I also have computer software that combined offers me almost 100 different variations, translations, language editions, etc. I take for granted that I will always have a Bible at hand. I even have an app on my Blackberry. But I also know missionaries who have trekked through China who handed out PAGES from their own Bible and watched as the Christians wept over actually having in their hands just one page to memorize, study, and live.

This is what we often forget.

It is not what our Bibles may be missing that is problematic, but what we may be missing from our Bibles.
 

RAdam

New Member
I see people saying the disputed passages are not crucial for doctrine. Every scripture in the bible is important and helps frame the entirety of truth concerning God. It amazes me that people think that you could do away with verses and it is no big deal. Regardless of which translation you prefer, we should all agree that every word in the bible is important and that every section of scripture is vital to help us understand more about God.
 

Winman

Active Member
I see people saying the disputed passages are not crucial for doctrine. Every scripture in the bible is important and helps frame the entirety of truth concerning God. It amazes me that people think that you could do away with verses and it is no big deal. Regardless of which translation you prefer, we should all agree that every word in the bible is important and that every section of scripture is vital to help us understand more about God.

Yes, it is amazing how easily people dismiss the differences between those versions derived from the CT and those derived from the RT seeing we have very stern warnings from God not to add or diminish from his word.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


I take God's warnings seriously. He said if you add to his word he will add unto him the plagues that are written in this book, and if you diminish from his word he will take away his part out of the book of life.

And yet, it doesn't bother folks that the CT is missing nearly 3000 words in the original Greek, dozens of verses, and even entire passages.

That bothers me a great deal. Either the CT diminished from God's word, or the RT added to it. Anybody who argues they are the same is simply deceiving themselves, even a little child would know better.

And how can you hold an honest debate with someone who insists an illogical impossibility is true? You can't.

You cannot reason with unreasonable people.
 
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NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


I take God's warnings seriously. He said if you add to his word he will add unto him the plagues that are written in this book, and if you diminish from his word he will take away his part out of the book of life.

So did the 1611 edition of the KJT take away from 1 John 5v12 or did the 1769 edition add to it?

Either somebody in 1611 had their name taken out of the book of life or someone in 1769 had all the plagues of the Bible.

Which was it?
 

Winman

Active Member
Where do you get this information? I have searched and all sources I have found shows the comma Johanneum appeared in the original 1611 AV.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
You cannot reason with unreasonable people.

PLEASE read the OP carefully. For hundreds or thousands of years people trusted what precious little of the Bible that they had, even with marginal notes. So were they mislead or lacking in faith? Please answer me that question.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Even though I ask Rippon this question, I know there are others here that believe as he does, so would someone please answer this for me?


Originally Posted by Rippon
The KJV is still the Word of God despite its numerous additions and a few deletions. And of course the ERV,ASV,NASBU,RSV,NRSV,ESV,HCSB,NIV/TNIV,NLTse,MLB,GW,Norlie's and a bunch more are the Word of God.The last 13 are more faithful to the originals than are the KJV's. But,all in all,the KJV's are in the ballpark.
(bolding mine)

How can you possibly know that? There are no originals to compare them to.
 

NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
Even though I ask Rippon this question, I know there are others here that believe as he does, so would someone please answer this for me?

Its his opinion - which is no more or less valid that those who say that the KJT is closer to the originals than the others.

On the OP - of course we do not need every single word of the Bible to trust God - most people who put their faith in Him know very little if any Bible.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Wrong verse. Compare 1 John 5v12 in the two editions.

There are around 400 minor textual changes made in the KJB from 1611 to 1769. I have to leave for work in a few minutes, so I will copy and paste from a good article on this, that explains it much better than I could anyway.

Textual Changes

Almost all of the alleged changes have been accounted for. We now come to the question of actual textual differences between our present editions and that of 1611. There are some differences between the two, but they are not the changes of a revision. They are instead the correction of early printing errors. That this is a fact may be seen in three things: (1) the character of the changes, (2) the frequency of the changes throughout the Bible, and (3) the time the changes were made. First, let us look at the character of the changes made from the time of the first printing of the Authorized English Bible. The changes from the 1611 edition that are admittedly textual are obviously printing errors because of the nature of these changes. They are not textual changes made to alter the reading. In the first printing, words were sometimes inverted. Sometimes a plural was written as singular or vice versa. At times a word was miswritten for one that was similar. A few times a word or even a phrase was omitted. The omissions were obvious and did not have the doctrinal implications of those found in modern translations. In fact, there is really no comparison between the corrections made in the King James text and those proposed by the scholars of today.

F.H.A. Scrivener, in the appendix of his book, lists the variations between the 1611 edition of the KJV and later printings. A sampling of these corrections is given below. In order to be objective, the samples give the first textual correction on consecutive left-hand pages of Scrivener's book. The 1611 reading is given first; then the present reading; and finally, the date the correction was first made.
1 this thing--this thing also (1638)
2 shalt have remained--ye shall have remained (1762)

3 Achzib, nor Helbath, nor Aphik--of Achzib, nor of Helbath, nor of Aphik (1762)

4 requite good--requite me good (1629)

5 this book of the Covenant--the book of this covenant (1629)

6 chief rulers--chief ruler (1629)

7 And Parbar--At Parbar (1638)

8 For this cause--And for this cause (1638)

9 For the king had appointed--for so the king had appointed (1629)

10 Seek good--seek God (1617)

11 The cormorant--But the cormorant (1629)

12 returned--turned (1769)

13 a fiery furnace--a burning fiery furnace (1638)

14 The crowned--Thy crowned (1629)

15 thy right doeth--thy right hand doeth (1613)

16 the wayes side--the way side (1743)

17 which was a Jew--which was a Jewess (1629)

18 the city--the city of the Damascenes (1629)

19 now and ever--both now and ever (1638)

20 which was of our father's--which was our fathers (1616)


Before your eyes are 5% of the textual changes made in the King James Version in 375 years. Even if they were not corrections of previous errors, they would be of no comparison to modern alterations. But they are corrections of printing errors, and therefore no comparison is at all possible. Look at the list for yourself and you will find only one that has serious doctrinal implications. In fact, in an examination of Scrivener's entire appendix, it is the only variation found by this author that could be accused of being doctrinal. I am referring to Psalm 69:32 where the 1611 edition has "seek good" when the Bible should have read "seek God." Yet, even with this error, two points demonstrate that this was indeed a printing error. First, the similarity of the words "good" and "God" in spelling shows how easily a weary typesetter could misread the proof and put the wrong word in the text. Second, this error was so obvious that it was caught and corrected in the year 1617, only six years after the original printing and well before the first so-called revision. The myth that there are several major revisions to the 1611 KJV should be getting clearer. But there is more.

Not only does the character of the changes show them to be printing errors, so does their frequency. Fundamentalist scholars refer to the thousands of revisions made to the 1611 as if they were on a par with the recent bible versions. They are not. The overwhelming majority of them are either type style or spelling changes. The few which do remain are clearly corrections of printing errors made because of the tediousness involved in the early printing process. The sample list given above will demonstrate just how careful Scrivener was in listing all the variations. Yet, even with this great care, only approximately 400 variations are named between the 1611 edition and modern copies. Remember that there were 100 variations between the first two Oxford editions which were both printed in 1611. Since there are almost 1200 chapters in the Bible, the average variation per chapter (after 375 years) is one third, i.e., one correction per every three chapters. These are changes such as "chief rulers" to "chief ruler" and "And Parbar" to "At Parbar." But there is yet one more evidence that these variations are simply corrected printing errors: the early date at which they were corrected.

The character and frequency of the textual changes clearly separate them from modern alterations. But the time the changes were made settles the issue absolutely. The great majority of the 400 corrections were made within a few years of the original printing. Take, for example, our earlier sampling. Of the twenty corrections listed, one was made in 1613, one in 1616, one in 1617, eight in 1629, five in 1638, one in 1743, two in 1762, and one in 1769. That means that 16 out of 20 corrections, or 80%, were made within twenty-seven years of the 1611 printing. That is hardly the long drawn out series of revisions the scholars would have you to believe. In another study made by examining every other page of Scrivener's appendix in detail, 72% of the textual corrections were made by 1638. There is no "revision" issue.

The character of the textual changes is that of obvious errors. The frequency of the textual changes is sparse, occurring only once per three chapters. The chronology of the textual changes is early with about three fourths of them occurring within twenty-seven years of the first printing. All of these details establish the fact that there were no true revisions in the sense of updating the language or correcting translation errors. There were only editions which corrected early typographical errors. Our source of authority for the exact wording of the 1611 Authorized Version is not in the existing copies of the first printing. Our source of authority for the exact wording of our English Bible is in the preserving power of Almighty God. Just as God did not leave us the original autographs to fight and squabble over, so He did not see fit to leave us the proof copy of the translation. Our authority is in the hand of God as always. You can praise the Lord for that!
 

NaasPreacher (C4K)

Well-Known Member
There are around 400 minor textual changes made in the KJB from 1611 to 1769. I have to leave for work in a few minutes, so I will copy and paste from a good article on this, that explains it much better than I could anyway.

In other words mistakes are okay if they are not too bad.

Which edition is perfect? Your lengthy copy and paste did not answer the question. I notice they skipped 1 John 5v12.
 

RAdam

New Member
Its his opinion - which is no more or less valid that those who say that the KJT is closer to the originals than the others.

On the OP - of course we do not need every single word of the Bible to trust God - most people who put their faith in Him know very little if any Bible.

Those who say the KJT is closer to the originals are just as bad. Nobody has ever seen the originals, thus nobody has a clue what the originals said.
 
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