A Crazy Idea

[Sularis]

we all know the two main things we Baptists like to do is eat (i mean fellowship) and argue (more fellowshipping)

Since we in no ways at all agree on this Board - I was thinking - how about we go through the Westminister Confession of Faith - one article at a time and try to see if we can rewrite it - thinking perhaps a set period of time per article with a democratic poll at the end if we cant agree - this would also standardize a lot of arguments that keep cycling on this board as we could settle definitions

like grace - is undeserved mercy - that is a universal effectual call to be saved plus God not just going OT on our buttocks

justification - the first part of salvation where our sins are removed from us - cannot occur separately from its partner of sanctification both of these terms are accomplished by the blood of Christ - also can be argued to be a one-time event or ongoing - i lean more towards the one-time

sanctification - where we as Christians are now set apart and made holy and like Christ - this is an ongoing process and in almost every Christian will only be complete when we get to heaven

salvation - is God offering a way for us to be able to choose to be forgiven our sins by believing and accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins - but that that choice while an action is incapable of saving us - God must still reach down in response and pull us to Him - since we being crippled are incapable of motion

eternal security - that it is not the Christians will always do the right thing but that we should - and that if we dont God's grace being superior to our weakness keeps us saved - and that since God is greater then sin - no sin no action can wash away the blood of Christ.

i figure we can argue about this post (i mean fellowship)
and then maybe start in the New Year

 

[Herald]

we all know the two main things we Baptists like to do is eat (i mean fellowship) and argue (more fellowshipping)

Since we in no ways at all agree on this Board - I was thinking - how about we go through the Westminister Confession of Faith - one article at a time and try to see if we can rewrite it - thinking perhaps a set period of time per article with a democratic poll at the end if we cant agree - this would also standardize a lot of arguments that keep cycling on this board as we could settle definitions

like grace - is undeserved mercy - that is a universal effectual call to be saved plus God not just going OT on our buttocks

justification - the first part of salvation where our sins are removed from us - cannot occur separately from its partner of sanctification both of these terms are accomplished by the blood of Christ - also can be argued to be a one-time event or ongoing - i lean more towards the one-time

sanctification - where we as Christians are now set apart and made holy and like Christ - this is an ongoing process and in almost every Christian will only be complete when we get to heaven

salvation - is God offering a way for us to be able to choose to be forgiven our sins by believing and accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins - but that that choice while an action is incapable of saving us - God must still reach down in response and pull us to Him - since we being crippled are incapable of motion

eternal security - that it is not the Christians will always do the right thing but that we should - and that if we dont God's grace being superior to our weakness keeps us saved - and that since God is greater then sin - no sin no action can wash away the blood of Christ.

i figure we can argue about this post (i mean fellowship)
and then maybe start in the New Year

Why would you want to go through a Presbyterian document that includes infant baptism and a wrong view of church governance?

 

[saturneptune]

Loud mouth Baptists are at their best when a 400 pound one is at a pot luck stuffing his mouth with food at 100 mph and trying to tell others about sins other members are committing in the church. Usually one cannot understand them because of the food in their mouth. That is called overlooking gossip and gluttony while condemning every other vice on earth.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Since we in no ways at all agree on this Board - I was thinking - how about we go through the Westminister Confession of Faith - one article at a time and try to see if we can rewrite it - thinking perhaps a set period of time per article with a democratic poll at the end if we cant agree - this would also standardize a lot of arguments that keep cycling on this board as we could settle definitions

Since...........Most Baptists couldn't give a fig about what a bunch of Presbyterians say..........I doubt it would work. I've read the "confession" before.....and many others. I don't care for most of them. Even the London Baptist Confession smacks of Creedalism to me.....It'll be a hard row to hoe...but, I wish you luck.

 

[padredurand]

Since...........Most Baptists couldn't give a fig about what a bunch of Presbyterians say..........I doubt it would work. I've read the "confession" before.....and many others. I don't care for most of them. Even the London Baptist Confession smacks of Creedalism to me.....It'll be a hard row to hoe...but, I wish you luck.

Well, he did title the thread "A Crazy Idea".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, he did title the thread "A Crazy Idea".

You forgot the "Eh" at the end of the sentence.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why would you want to go through a Presbyterian document that includes infant baptism and a wrong view of church governance?

Yes he is in the wrong Forum.....the Puritan ones down the block & to the right.:laugh:

 

[padredurand]

Well, he did title the thread "A Crazy Idea".

,eh? :thumbs:

 

[Van]

One bite at a time

we all know the two main things we Baptists like to do is eat (i mean fellowship) and argue (more fellowshipping)

Since we in no ways at all agree on this Board - I was thinking - how about we go through the Westminister Confession of Faith - one article at a time and try to see if we can rewrite it - thinking perhaps a set period of time per article with a democratic poll at the end if we cant agree - this would also standardize a lot of arguments that keep cycling on this board as we could settle definitions

like grace - is undeserved mercy - that is a universal effectual call to be saved plus God not just going OT on our buttocks

justification - the first part of salvation where our sins are removed from us - cannot occur separately from its partner of sanctification both of these terms are accomplished by the blood of Christ - also can be argued to be a one-time event or ongoing - i lean more towards the one-time

sanctification - where we as Christians are now set apart and made holy and like Christ - this is an ongoing process and in almost every Christian will only be complete when we get to heaven

salvation - is God offering a way for us to be able to choose to be forgiven our sins by believing and accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins - but that that choice while an action is incapable of saving us - God must still reach down in response and pull us to Him - since we being crippled are incapable of motion

eternal security - that it is not the Christians will always do the right thing but that we should - and that if we dont God's grace being superior to our weakness keeps us saved - and that since God is greater then sin - no sin no action can wash away the blood of Christ.

i figure we can argue about this post (i mean fellowship)
and then maybe start in the New Year

Lets see how difficult discussion of any theological topic on this board becomes.

Lets try to define grace. Is grace a specific thing, like the gracious gift of salvation. Or is it simply a general term for any bestowal of divine favor on an individual or group? Can you list verses where grace is necessarily a specific blessing rather than simply one example of God's manifold blessings?

Some say mercy is the withholding of deserved punishment whereas grace is the giving of unmerited favor. But that seems too technical of a distinction, because it seems to be a grace to be merciful.

 

[Herald]

Since...........Most Baptists couldn't give a fig about what a bunch of Presbyterians say..........I doubt it would work. I've read the "confession" before.....and many others. I don't care for most of them. Even the London Baptist Confession smacks of Creedalism to me.....It'll be a hard row to hoe...but, I wish you luck.

HoS,

Without diminishing the differences between us, the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith (LBCF) is a theological document. Unlike creeds (i.e. The Apostles and Nicene Creeds) it is not a rhetorical statement used to affirm common beliefs. If anything the LBCF is a commentary, 32 chapters long. Again, I am not overlooking the disagreements you, as a FW'er, have with the document. There are substantial differences between the WCF and the LBCF: Tabluar comparison.

 

[saturneptune]

we all know the two main things we Baptists like to do is eat (i mean fellowship) and argue (more fellowshipping)

Since we in no ways at all agree on this Board - I was thinking - how about we go through the Westminister Confession of Faith - one article at a time and try to see if we can rewrite it - thinking perhaps a set period of time per article with a democratic poll at the end if we cant agree - this would also standardize a lot of arguments that keep cycling on this board as we could settle definitions

like grace - is undeserved mercy - that is a universal effectual call to be saved plus God not just going OT on our buttocks

justification - the first part of salvation where our sins are removed from us - cannot occur separately from its partner of sanctification both of these terms are accomplished by the blood of Christ - also can be argued to be a one-time event or ongoing - i lean more towards the one-time

sanctification - where we as Christians are now set apart and made holy and like Christ - this is an ongoing process and in almost every Christian will only be complete when we get to heaven

salvation - is God offering a way for us to be able to choose to be forgiven our sins by believing and accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins - but that that choice while an action is incapable of saving us - God must still reach down in response and pull us to Him - since we being crippled are incapable of motion

eternal security - that it is not the Christians will always do the right thing but that we should - and that if we dont God's grace being superior to our weakness keeps us saved - and that since God is greater then sin - no sin no action can wash away the blood of Christ.

i figure we can argue about this post (i mean fellowship)
and then maybe start in the New Year

Growing up as a Presbyterian, this is not only a crazy idea, but unnecessary. Creeds and "confessions of faith" are collections of man's opinion. The only words we need is the Word of God, called the Bible. Been there, done that. The fact is a congregation standing up during a worship service and chanting a creed serves no purpose. I do agree with your statement about church government. No hierarcy or elder rule churches for me.

However, perhaps we could start sprinkling for baptisms. Just think how much lower the church water bill would be.

 

[Sularis]

Noting the number of responses that quoted and then went wayyyyyy off topic vs the few that stayed on topic it most likely is an impossible endeavour

I see just because something is Presbyterian we are supposed to spit on it - if its Catholic should we form a firing squad - Grow up people - Westminster i believe came first which is why i suggested it rather then the London ones - the point of this thread is to say yes or no - if you say no get out - if you say meh why not chance to argue then fine contribute on topic

How hard is it to type no not interested or sure why not

As to the why - because since when is it a bad idea to try and establish a common ground so as to more fully define the debates that go around here and maybe pull them a bit higher then yer evil and ignoring my points - which does seem to be about the highest level it gets on here

yes grace is unmerited favor that is two-fold
1) God grants us a way to be saved
2) God just doesnt kill us all right now

does anyone disagree with that? or think that there should be a third aspect

 

[saturneptune]

As to the why - because since when is it a bad idea to try and establish a common ground so as to more fully define the debates that go around here and maybe pull them a bit higher then yer evil and ignoring my points - which does seem to be about the highest level it gets on here

yes grace is unmerited favor that is two-fold
1) God grants us a way to be saved
2) God just doesnt kill us all right now

does anyone disagree with that? or think that there should be a third aspect

If the issue is common ground, then it is a clear principle in Scripture. Why does a series of common ground statements need to be rewritten in a creed that the congregation chants every Sunday?

Yes, God grants us a way of salvation. It is called the Gospel. I am not sure what you mean by the second statement. God could "kill" a saved or unsaved person according to His will. Spiritually, God does not kill us, as our spirit is already dead. Unmerited favor relates to quickening our spirit.

 

[Van]

Continuing the Doctrinal Discussion

Noting the number of responses that quoted and then went wayyyyyy off topic vs the few that stayed on topic it most likely is an impossible endeavour

I see just because something is Presbyterian we are supposed to spit on it - if its Catholic should we form a firing squad - Grow up people - Westminster i believe came first which is why i suggested it rather then the London ones - the point of this thread is to say yes or no - if you say no get out - if you say meh why not chance to argue then fine contribute on topic

How hard is it to type no not interested or sure why not

As to the why - because since when is it a bad idea to try and establish a common ground so as to more fully define the debates that go around here and maybe pull them a bit higher then yer evil and ignoring my points - which does seem to be about the highest level it gets on here

yes grace is unmerited favor that is two-fold
1) God grants us a way to be saved
2) God just doesnt kill us all right now

does anyone disagree with that? or think that there should be a third aspect

Yes, I disagree, Grace is the bestowal of divine favor, and is not limited to saving grace. And for a third aspect, recall that both Jesus and Mary are said to be "full of grace" referring to divine qualities such as beauty, wisdom, righteousness, etc.

What if we took the word grace, out of the bible and transliterated it as charisma. Thus all the various fruits of the Spirit become gracious gifts from God.

Some people say "grace" before they eat. The idea, I think, is that it would be an act of ingratitude to eat what the Lord has provided without thanking the Lord for His blessing. Those that do not say or at least consider grace before they eat have little respect for the verse that teaches God gives grace to the humble but opposes the proud.

Bottom line, the gracious gift of salvation is but one of many blessings God bestows on us.

 

[Sularis]

i see - we baptists chant a creed every service - and i really doubt any church chants the entire westminster confession of faith it is a little long

and if common ground was so easily obtained via the Bible and not subject to personal interpretation why are there so many denominations?

since it seems only one or two people can stay on topic it is too crazy of an idea to work

 

[Van]

Moving Forward with an effort to obtain agreement

we all know the two main things we Baptists like to do is eat (i mean fellowship) and argue (more fellowshipping)

Since we in no ways at all agree on this Board - I was thinking - how about we go through the Westminster Confession of Faith - one article at a time and try to see if we can rewrite it - thinking perhaps a set period of time per article with a democratic poll at the end if we cant agree - this would also standardize a lot of arguments that keep cycling on this board as we could settle definitions

like grace - is undeserved mercy - that is a universal effectual call to be saved plus God not just going OT on our buttocks

justification - the first part of salvation where our sins are removed from us - cannot occur separately from its partner of sanctification both of these terms are accomplished by the blood of Christ - also can be argued to be a one-time event or ongoing - i lean more towards the one-time

sanctification - where we as Christians are now set apart and made holy and like Christ - this is an ongoing process and in almost every Christian will only be complete when we get to heaven

salvation - is God offering a way for us to be able to choose to be forgiven our sins by believing and accepting Jesus sacrifice for our sins - but that that choice while an action is incapable of saving us - God must still reach down in response and pull us to Him - since we being crippled are incapable of motion

eternal security - that it is not the Christians will always do the right thing but that we should - and that if we dont God's grace being superior to our weakness keeps us saved - and that since God is greater then sin - no sin no action can wash away the blood of Christ.

i figure we can argue about this post (i mean fellowship)
and then maybe start in the New Year

1) Grace is the bestowal of divine favor upon individuals or groups. Saving grace is God crediting our worthless faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, and placing us (positional sanctification) spiritually in Christ.

2) Justification is to render an unrighteous individual, righteous, by removing the consequence of sin, and the restoration of an unblemished record. This occurs when God places us spiritually in Christ and we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the removal of our body of flesh (sin) and we arise in Christ a new creation, born anew and spiritually alive together with Christ.

3) Sanctification has two meanings, (1) to be set apart in Christ, and (2) progressive sanctification where after we are in Christ, we grow more mature and Christ like.

4) Salvation is a three part activity by God alone. Part one is God choosing to credit our faith as righteousness and setting us apart in Christ, called positional sanctification. Part two occurs during our physical lives after we are spiritually born anew, and involves us growing more Christ-like and serving Him. If we build upon our foundation of Christ with imperishable things, we earn rewards such that we enter heaven abundantly. Part 3 occurs at Christ's return where we are raised or changed in the twinkling of an eye in glorified bodies, our adoption as sons. Part one frees us from the penalty of sin, part two from the power of sin, and part 3 from the presence of sin.

5) Eternal Security is the doctrine that once a person is actually saved, i.e. God has spiritually placed them in Christ and they have been born anew as a child of God, nothing can undo God's accomplishment of eternal life. The sinful acts we do after salvation are justified by the blood of the Lamb continuously, so it is just as if we did not sin. God protects our faith and devotion to Christ, such that we can neither lose nor forfeit our salvation.

 

[saturneptune]

i see - we baptists chant a creed every service - and i really doubt any church chants the entire westminster confession of faith it is a little long

and if common ground was so easily obtained via the Bible and not subject to personal interpretation why are there so many denominations?

since it seems only one or two people can stay on topic it is too crazy of an idea to work

I do not recall a Baptist service with any creed. If that is your heart's desire, there are many other denominations that do this every Sunday.

Obviously common ground is not easily obtained. Parroting a man made set of statements does not solve the problem.