Originally posted by Sojourn_er:
Is America truly 'CHRISTIAN' nation?
NO,
Nor was it intended to be. The concept of the founders was that each individual was sovereign before God- that it was wrong to impose a king or pope between God and man in matters of religion and morality.
Thus, they had an idea to limit government to primarily preserving the rights of individuals. This ideal has been greatly eroded often in the name of making America a
more Christian nation, ie. many of the civil rights initiatives, welfare state, and foreign military intervention for "righting injustices" rather than defending our nation.
CHRISTIANS OBEY THE WORD OF GOD!!!
Yes. And the Founders had in mind to allow maximum liberty to individuals in their religious convictions while restricting the government significantly in legislating matters of conscience.
1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1Pe 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
1Pe 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Doesn't say IF the king PLEASES YOU, DOES IT?
Baptists overwhelmingly supported the rebels during the Revolution. Their battle cry: "No king but Jesus".
The contention of the early Americans wasn't that they wanted independence. They wanted the KING to obey British law and allow the colonies the rights, freedoms, and representation they had in England.
When the king disobeys his own laws... it is better to obey God than men.
He Preached!
What did he preach?
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
He Preached the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ!!
NOT POLITICS!!
Does the gospel not include opposing murder? Wickedness in government? Wickedness in society?
I agree that there is danger in making a ministry of politics. There is also a danger when preachers ignore abuses of power by government. Jesus didn't.
Where politics and the gospel overlap... let the gospel be proclaimed all the louder.
Honour the king.
The 'COLONISTS' were SUBJECTS of the KING, and SUBJECT TO THAT COMMAND OF GOD even in the 'new world'!!
You're obviously right- they should have never rebelled even against a government that violated its own laws and principles and forced Baptists and other non-conformists to pay taxes to the Church of England. At the same time, Baptists were persecuted heavily for daring to preach the gospel... and this by a "Christian" church/state and its "Christian" king.
IF you say something about God, you HAVE TO find that PROVEN in SCRIPTURE!!!
4.THE KING JAMES BIBLE IS THE ONLY CONSTITUTION OF CHRISTIANS!
Prove it with scripture.
The founding fathers said that we are ENDOWED BY OUR CREATOR with 'inalienable rights'
Which do you have a problem with- life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness (originally "property")?
You don't think it is God who grants "life"?
You don't think God will hold those accountable who stand in the way of the "liberty" to serve and worship Him?... or even to rebel against Him?
2. America is a PLURALIST nation, God HATES PLURALISM!
READ HIS WORD WITH EYES WIDE OPEN AND FIND OUT WHAT GOD THINKS OF PLURALISM!
God hates sin... God hated Esau... God hates the wicked... but if you are going to say something about God you should support it with scripture. Please show where God hates "pluralism".
3. England was/is 'Christian' that means NATIONALISM caused 'Christian' to FIRE UPON 'Christian'! THAT OUGHT NEVER TO HAPPEN!!!
You should then leave this board forthwith... and your Baptist church and join the closests Episcopalian church (Church of England USA).
The idea of the "Christian nation" is strongly linked to the abuses of the Holy Roman Empire. The concept taught that church and state were to be merged into one earthly enterprise. The leaders of this organization whether the RCC or British Empire were supposedly endowed with divine rights to rule over men in both civil and religious matters.
Separation of church and state is a Baptist principle intended to keep the President or King out from between the believer and God.
AND the MUSLIM factor is JUST DESSERTS for creating a PLURALIST nation! GOD HATES PLURALISM!
So God would be more pleased if we forced "conversions" or persecuted people who didn't conform to the theology of the ruler?
Pastor Chuck Baldwin states, AMONG HIS OTHER ERRORS,
Don't know him. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to take it up with him? Matthew 18, Galatians 6
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"
(THAT IS THE SAME AS SAYING THAT 'JUST'PARENTAL POWER IS DERIVED BY THE CONSENT OF THE CHILDREN)
Nope. Parents are commissioned by God to care for their children and teach them godliness... Godly government... as our founders intended ours to be... is commissioned to protect the rights of people in obedience to 1 Peter 2.
BUT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST SAYS GOVERNMENT POWER IS FROM GOD, NOT "BY THE CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED"
Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
What a web of deceit you are caught up in... eariler you protested that God grants inalienable rights... here you protest God allowing an evil ruler to deny one of those rights.
THERBY WE SEE A 'BAD' GOVERNMENT GIVEN 'POWER/HONOR' FROM GOD!! THE 'GOVERNED'
ARE NOT GIVEN PERMISSION TO REVOLT AGAINST IT!!!
There were many Jewish seditionists during Jesus day... can you find one place where He condemned them or their activities?
AND ROMAN POWER WAS NOT DERIVED BY THE "CONSENT OF THE GOVERNED"!!!
Sure it was... silence in that case was consent. A man either resists a government or consents to it.
THUS THE FUMBLING FOUNDING FATHERS WERE IGNORANT OF, OR DELIBERATELY LIED ON THE WORD OF GOD TO ADVANCE THEIR 'LUST'
Or maybe your post is wrong... that answer gets my vote even though I am in agreement with what seems to be your starting point. American Christians are far too concerned about kingdom USA and too littled concerned for the Kingdom of Christ.
SINFUL men DISOBEYED and MANIPULATED scripture and went AGAINST the King, but God has ALWAYS been ABLE TO USE THE ACTIONS OF SINFUL MEN FOR HIS GOOD PLEASURE AND PURPOSES.
Or perhaps sinful kings disobeyed and manipulated both scripture and law to the point where men of conscience finally said, "No!"
The English monarch was the head of both the church and state. He was thought to rule over men's lives, fortunes, AND their souls.
