A Different Salvation?

[loDebar]

I have never argued otherwise and I have no idea why you would even think I believe any different than that? I have never believed/stated or taught that we are to keep the law for justification or sanctification or any aspect of salvation. However, neither do I repudiate the divine purpose for the law and it is far more than what you claim. It not only reveals the knowledge of righteousnes and sin (standard) but it's violation is violation of what it is by principle the very revelation of God's own moral character which is "holy" and "good" and "just" yet fails to manifest it perfectly by the "letter" as it can only be truly manifested by its "spirit" or principle which is written in the hearts by new birth so that we respond by attitude and actions that are "holy" "good" and "just.


Never have been in that trap. But you have fallen in the opposite trap by denying God's intent for HIS law (any of his commandments). According to your view, if consistent with your view, there is no need for salvation because there is no such thing as sin according to the definition by God's word - sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is disobeying God.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[The Biblicist]

Once more a copy and paste argument, of great length has been posted to hide the obvious.

Only because there was no response to the original post.

1) Does "salvation + en" indicate the preposition modifies the noun salvation or the verb chosen? The verb!

Both humas and soterian are found in the accusative case showing that both indicate termination of the action of the verb eileto. One is the direct object and the other is the indirect object. The preposition eis is a directive/movement preposition as it carries action toward something which in this case finds the termination of that action in the accusative case soterian which is also the case of termination of action. In contrast en is not a directive preposition but speaks more of position/location/sphere/means/instrumental and thus naturally would go with the dative case hagio. Both pistei and alethia are Feminine, the former is dative case (again agreeing more with the preposition "en" as position/location/sphere/means) while the latter is gentive case. So, the most natural reading is that "eis soterian" terminates the action of "eleto" IN ETERNITY PAST (from the beginning) concerning "humas" whereas, "en hagio....kai ...pistei" - dative nouns) is further explanatory of soterian demonstrating the sphere or means by which salvation IN TIME(sphere/means) is administrated.

2) What is the direct object of the verb chosen? "You" as the person affected, and "salvation" as the thing effected. But how were we chosen? By being set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit. And on what basis were we chosen? God crediting our faith as righteousness.

We have two different actors ("God" and the "holy Spirit") with two different actions. The first Actor does his work BEFORE TIME ("from the beginning") or as Paul says elsewhere "before the foundation of the world." The Father acts BEFORE TIME choosing them "in him" (Eph. 1:4) but the Holy Spirit's act occurs IN TIME (sphere and means "en") which is setting the chosen apart and belief of the truth as this actor and action necessarily is performed IN TIME. Hence, you are confusing the Actors and their actions and the time of their actions. The act of choosing them "in him" is not the work of the Holy Spirit IN TIME but the work of the Father BEFORE TIME. It is IN TIME that the Holy Spirit sets apart those chosen by the father as it is IN TIME they belief the truth.

So, you are reversing the works and the workers in order to support your view when the text will not support your reversal.

3) Your time travel theology, where we were chosen through faith before creation is without merit.

False for several reasons. First, there is no time before creation as time is a measurement of created things and we were chosen "before the foundation of the world" and thus "from the beginning" already chosen before time began. Second, you are again confusing the two workers and their works. You are attributing the work IN TIME with the work BEFORE TIME and thus confusing the work of the Father with the work of the Holy Spirit. We are "saved by grace through faith" IN TIME but not before time and that is the work of the Holy Spirit not the work of the Father.

4) The "effectual call" is one of your fictions, and is no where found in scripture.

. No, it is the Biblical text. "wherefore" points back to just what was said about "belief in the truth" as that is connected with "called by our gospel." Second, it is effectual "to the OBTAINING of glory" not merely the POSSIBLE PROSPECT of obtaining glory.

5) Being saved by grace through faith means our faith existed before we were chosen for salvation. Otherwise faith does not provide the access, which it does.

The grammar repudiates your assertion that the faith existed before we were chosen. The text uses the perfect tense verb translated "saved" which points to an already completed action (which in context refers to being quickened - vv. 1-5, 10 "created in Christ") and says that action was completed "through faith" thus making faith inseparable from that action and contained within that action or else it would not be a completed action at all. If you have arrived at the other side of a mountain going "through a tunnel" then going through the tunnel is inseparable from arriving at the other side of the mountain or else you have not arrived. Get the point - that is what the Greek perfect is yelling at you!

6) Ephesians 2:8 indicates salvation is the gift through faith, not salvation and faith are the gift. Pay no attention to this bogus interpretation

Your right, nobody should pay attention to your bogus interpretation as it has nothing to support but is directly contradicted by the context and grammar. Again, going "through" a tunnel is part of, and inseparable from the action of arriving on the other side of the mountain IF that arrival is said to be "through that tunnel." Likewise, "faith" is inseparable from the completed action of "saved"" as that action cannot be completed unless "through faith" is included in being "saved" (quickened, created in Christ).

7) Wallace agrees the gift is not faith but salvation by grace.

Wrong! I quoted verbatum what he said and he said that "saved-through-faith" is the gift just as the perfect tense tunnel analogy demands.

Please do not waste more electrons regurgitating the same debunked arguments over and over. And please do not sprinkle more magic grammar dust over verse after verse to make them say what they do not say.

That is precisely the advice you should follow concerning your error after errors that are grammatical wrong and proven wrong.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sin is disobeying God.

You got to hear from God and know his will before you can disobey him! His commandments/law reveals right and wrong - so easy, so simple!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Please do not waste more electrons regurgitating the same debunked arguments over and over. And please do not sprinkle more magic grammar dust over verse after verse to make them say what they do not say.

For those who may not know, this is Van-ese for 'please do not introduce facts into the discussion.'

 

[loDebar]

You got to hear from God and know his will before you can disobey him! His commandments/law reveals right and wrong - so easy, so simple!

His will shows more

Jas 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth itnot, to him it is sin.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.

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