A Dispensationalist View of Calvinism

[The Archangel]

I believe every word of scripture, something you make no claim to. you quoted this;

So... because I disagree with your wildly inaccurate understanding of scripture, I don't believe every word of scripture? Really?!

Apparently you think that Paul is making an argument that gentiles becomes Hebrews here in this passage because those of faith are sons of Abraham.

It only means that as Abraham was first to believe God concerning his son, that we gentiles will be blessed in the same way. It does not mean that gentiles become Hebrews. You do know that the words following a statement that says "so then" means this is the explanation of his statement.

The point is we become children of God by faith. This is the gospel of God.

Paul is arguing that Justification has always been by faith and, as such, a Christian is essentially a descendant of Abraham--who himself was justified by faith. The "So then" is a result clause, but you've picked the wrong "result." This passage is clearly about being justified by faith and Christians are descendants of Abraham. It is really quite plain.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

So... because I disagree with your wildly inaccurate understanding of scripture, I don't believe every word of scripture? Really?!



Paul is arguing that Justification has always been by faith and, as such, a Christian is essentially a descendant of Abraham--who himself was justified by faith. The "So then" is a result clause, but you've picked the wrong "result." This passage is clearly about being justified by faith and Christians are descendants of Abraham. It is really quite plain.

The Archangel

Is is obvious that you have just jumped into a conversation without knowing what has been said before. You are making yourself look ridiculous. My whole point has been that Abraham believed God and his faith was imputed to him for righteousness. I spent some time proving that in Romans 4 and compared it with Ge 15. According to Romans 4 this is where Abraham was justified in the sight of God. This did not clear Abraham from his sins and God did not give him faith as a gift. Abraham heard what God said and he believed it. He did not believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. He, for the first time, believed that he would be the father of many nations (that is what his name means) and he understood in Ge 15 that he would have a son through the aged Sarah. God said, because he believed that, he was going to count him righteous. He was justified by God. The evidence that Abraham believed God was his action. Sarah became pregnant.

Here is what Abraham believed before Ge 15.

Ge 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house [is] this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Here is what God said about that.

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell (count) the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

And here is the "so then."

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he (the LORD) counted it to him for righteousness.

Now it is faith that justifies always in any time period, and it is faith in what God says in that time, but God does not say the same thing to every one and to be justified by faith one must believe what God says to them. Justification is not salvation.

What we learn about justifying faith is that justification is God's response to one believing what he says to them. Romans 4 compared with Ge 15 makes that abundantly clear.

It is clear in our day as well because we have this:

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; See Ga 1:1.
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And on your other point. I am not intimidated by a Calvinist who claims my argument is a wildly inaccurate speculation of the scriptures. A Calvinist would not know that. The system of belief that you as a Calvinist preach is different in almost every point than what I believe. The way that is proven is by the various threads on this forum where Calvinists and so called Arminians do not agree on any subject that is brought up. The God of the Calvinists is different.

 

[AustinC]

I am aware that a human can reject the Atonement that has fully eradicated his sinful condition.

How is salvation contingent on one's choice? Salvation was already provided before any human was ever created. Only the result of one's choice, their eternal destination is contingent on one's choice. Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation.

Your claim is that there is no choice at all. One is literally saved at conception or damned at conception. God gets to decide.

Woe, you're really off the deep end. Literally nothing you have claimed is ever taught in the Bible.
You're claiming that God has universally atoned and saved all humans, but humans overpower God's salvation and defeat God so that they go to hell.
Note that grace is none existent as well as faith. You literally are preaching another gospel that is not ever preached by any person in the Bible.

 

[AustinC]

I struggle with bible interpretation that forces me to reconcile Calvinism, which is a totally corrupt system, to the biblical context of scripture.

No, you just struggle with bible interpretation...period.

Hebrews is not a sermon, it is a letter, an epistle. This is written to the Hebrews near the end of a forty year probation period, from the cross to the time for this nation and people to enter into rest. There are warnings in this epistle not to turn back to the weak and beggarly elements of the law. There is a penalty for doing so. There will be no other sacrifice for sin and it will be impossible to bring them again to repentance.

Sure it's a sermon. It takes about 45 minutes to read it. The preacher did an amazing, God moved, job of expressing the Supremacy of Christ Jesus over all things.

Here is the prophecy of Jesus Christ himself.

Lk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

A very good parable. Do you understand what Jesus was teaching?

The vineyard is described in Isa 5. You should read it. But there is a fig tree planted in the vineyard. The fig tree is a metaphor for national Israel. The certain man is the Lord Jesus Christ and the 3 years is the time of his earthly ministry. The vine dresser is the Holy Spirit. The number 40 is used in the scriptures for a time of probation. We know the nation was cast out of the land in 70 AD. That is 40 years from the cross to the dispersion. The reason was not because God did not want it to bear fruit but because it did not bear fruit.

Nope, you don't understand what Jesus was teaching...at all.

Take a look at what the vineyard looked like near the end of the 40 years probation.

You are projecting your dispensationalism onto the text. Note, that not one Christian believed what you teach for 1800 years.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

The above is what the apostles did first to this nation.

Wow, you really miss the message of this sermon.

3 And this will we do, if God permit. (going on unto perfection)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

You quote, but you have no idea what the preacher is saying.

This fig tree was cut down in 70 AD by the Romans and cast out of the vineyard and reckoned dead and the church of Jesus Christ took on a gentile character from that time. This can be easily seen in the NT epistles if ones have eyes to see. Calvinists will never see it because they are blind and have spiritualized the entire OT scriptures where the promises to this nation were made and the preparation for their eternal kingdom was established.

Again, you project your less than 200 year old theory upon the text.

Here is Jesus in a prophecy of these days after the cross which he spake as he journeyed to Jerusalem where he would be crucified in a week.

Lk 14:16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
(supper time is at the end of the day)
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

A wonderful message from Jesus.

Jesus Christ prepared the supper'
He sent his servant out at supper time to those who were bidden, which was his people Israel - Judah and Judaea.
They would not come and made silly excuses
Our Lord was angry with them for not coming to his supper
He sent his servant to bid the lower class in their place - Samaria
There was still room so he went out and into the hedges and highways and bid them for the express reason that his house may be filled - The world of gentiles.

You still don't grasp what Jesus was saying. You force your theory upon the text.

Here is a companion verse concerning what the role of the gentile is in this age.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Still speaking to the gentiles.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Another great passage that you fail to understand.

Still speaking to the gentiles;

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Do you understand who "all Israel" is???

The gentiles were brought in to fill up the house (family) of Jesus Christ via the new birth. But he wants you to know that there is a future resurrection and salvation for Israel but it is after his house is filled.
Supper time
The fulness of the time
The end of the law
The last days

You project your theory on the text.

When Hebrews was written the 40 years was near over and those bidden would not come. They were all destroyed by the Roman army who burned their city and destroyed those wicked unbelievers in intense judgement ordered by God.

The prophecy of this age is in the parables of Jesus in the gospels and they agree with the history of these times.

The epistle to the Hebrews is not about you.

You realize, don't you, that Jews have been coming to faith from the early church even to this day...don't you???
Paul is clear in Romans that those who are "Israel" are those who are justified by faith. The sermon to the Hebrews is clear on this issue as well.
You have been taught by a person who is ignorant of scripture and you simply don't know what you are talking about.
I was raised in dispensationalism so I've heard similar teachings. As I read scripture and truly observed scripture, I kept seeing how disjointed and twisted dispensationalism is. It misses the point of so very much of the Bible.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

That's a terrible analogy.

He's terrible at arguing.

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Ever notice Calvinists say everything about Calvinism is not Calvinism.

Notice how this poster never actually addresses biblical arguments?

 

[The Archangel]

Is is obvious that you have just jumped into a conversation without knowing what has been said before. You are making yourself look ridiculous.

I've been reading the thread, and your arguments and statements have been and still are quite flawed.

My whole point has been that Abraham believed God and his faith was imputed to him for righteousness. I spent some time proving that in Romans 4 and compared it with Ge 15. According to Romans 4 this is where Abraham was justified in the sight of God. This did not clear Abraham from his sins and God did not give him faith as a gift. Abraham heard what God said and he believed it. He did not believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. He, for the first time, believed that he would be the father of many nations (that is what his name means) and he understood in Ge 15 that he would have a son through the aged Sarah. God said, because he believed that, he was going to count him righteous. He was justified by God. The evidence that Abraham believed God was his action. Sarah became pregnant.

The text of Romans (citing Genesis) clearly says that Abraham believed God and that was counted to him as righteousness. So, I'm not debating that.

This is what you're missing. When God goes to Abraham (then: Abram) in Genesis 12, many promises are made. Because of those promises, Abraham goes to Canaan. (See the "so" in Gen 12:4). Your understanding that Abraham believed he would have a son is flawed because it is far too narrow. Abraham believed all that God said; the son was the means by which those promises would come true.

If you're making the argument that Abraham believed God about the son from him and Sarah (as you've referenced above), then you have no choice other than to say Abraham's faith in God failed when he had Ishmael with Hagar.

What is more, the picture you paint here is that God comes to Abraham pleading with him to accept promises and/or believe in Him. But, as we are told in Joshua 24, Abraham is an idol worshiper when God comes to him.

[2] And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods. [3] Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac. (Joshua 24:2–3 ESV)​

So, God's response to Abraham is not a response to his "faith." If Abraham is an idol worshiper--as Joshua 24 clearly states--then God's actions of revealing Himself to Abraham and calling Abraham is what generates Abraham's faith in God.

Also, the "actor" here is clearly God. God is not believing for Abraham, but clearly God is doing the work. God is the one who chose Abraham, and that choice included salvation. What we see in Genesis is a long sanctification process (culminating with the "sacrifice" of Isaac). Abraham believed the promises of God, not simply that he would have a son.

Now it is faith that justifies always in any time period, and it is faith in what God says in that time, but God does not say the same thing to every one and to be justified by faith one must believe what God says to them. Justification is not salvation.

What we learn about justifying faith is that justification is God's response to one believing what he says to them. Romans 4 compared with Ge 15 makes that abundantly clear.

If you are correct, then any sin would mean the removal of that Justification. "Justification" is a forensic term; it's legal language. And it is salvation. In Romans 5:16 and 18, Paul uses "Justification" as the opposite of "Condemnation." So, justification is salvation.

Your scheme here paints justification as God's response to something we do--believe. But, that would fly in the face of what Paul tells us in Romans 3:

[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:22–26 ESV, emphasis mine)
​

If justification is God's response to our believing, then it is no longer a gift of his grace. What is more, Paul's entire thrust in Romans 4 is to show the difference between faith and works as it relates to salvation--and justification in Romans 4 is salvation.

And on your other point. I am not intimidated by a Calvinist who claims my argument is a wildly inaccurate speculation of the scriptures. A Calvinist would not know that. The system of belief that you as a Calvinist preach is different in almost every point than what I believe. The way that is proven is by the various threads on this forum where Calvinists and so called Arminians do not agree on any subject that is brought up. The God of the Calvinists is different.

It does not escape my notice that you are referring to me and all the other Calvinists as non-believers. The issue is not so much a theological system (remember, I've never read Calvin at length), it is an issue of hermeneutics. Your errant views are coming not from an Arminian system, but from an inability to read the Bible properly.

The Archangel

 

[JesusFan]

Woe, you're really off the deep end. Literally nothing you have claimed is ever taught in the Bible.
You're claiming that God has universally atoned and saved all humans, but humans overpower God's salvation and defeat God so that they go to hell.
Note that grace is none existent as well as faith. You literally are preaching another gospel that is not ever preached by any person in the Bible.

Must make a book "Gospel according to Van", a followup to his Systematic theology!

 

[JesusFan]

So... because I disagree with your wildly inaccurate understanding of scripture, I don't believe every word of scripture? Really?!



Paul is arguing that Justification has always been by faith and, as such, a Christian is essentially a descendant of Abraham--who himself was justified by faith. The "So then" is a result clause, but you've picked the wrong "result." This passage is clearly about being justified by faith and Christians are descendants of Abraham. It is really quite plain.

The Archangel

indeed, as Paul main point here would be that in Lord Jesus, both saved Jews and gentiles are now joint heirs in true spiritual Israel!

 

[JesusFan]

Is is obvious that you have just jumped into a conversation without knowing what has been said before. You are making yourself look ridiculous. My whole point has been that Abraham believed God and his faith was imputed to him for righteousness. I spent some time proving that in Romans 4 and compared it with Ge 15. According to Romans 4 this is where Abraham was justified in the sight of God. This did not clear Abraham from his sins and God did not give him faith as a gift. Abraham heard what God said and he believed it. He did not believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. He, for the first time, believed that he would be the father of many nations (that is what his name means) and he understood in Ge 15 that he would have a son through the aged Sarah. God said, because he believed that, he was going to count him righteous. He was justified by God. The evidence that Abraham believed God was his action. Sarah became pregnant.

Here is what Abraham believed before Ge 15.

Ge 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house [is] this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Here is what God said about that.

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell (count) the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

And here is the "so then."

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he (the LORD) counted it to him for righteousness.

Now it is faith that justifies always in any time period, and it is faith in what God says in that time, but God does not say the same thing to every one and to be justified by faith one must believe what God says to them. Justification is not salvation.

What we learn about justifying faith is that justification is God's response to one believing what he says to them. Romans 4 compared with Ge 15 makes that abundantly clear.

It is clear in our day as well because we have this:

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; See Ga 1:1.
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And on your other point. I am not intimidated by a Calvinist who claims my argument is a wildly inaccurate speculation of the scriptures. A Calvinist would not know that. The system of belief that you as a Calvinist preach is different in almost every point than what I believe. The way that is proven is by the various threads on this forum where Calvinists and so called Arminians do not agree on any subject that is brought up. The God of the Calvinists is different.

he knew of a promised Messiah yet to come, and placed hope into that Lamb of God to take away his sins!

 

[JesusFan]

Is is obvious that you have just jumped into a conversation without knowing what has been said before. You are making yourself look ridiculous. My whole point has been that Abraham believed God and his faith was imputed to him for righteousness. I spent some time proving that in Romans 4 and compared it with Ge 15. According to Romans 4 this is where Abraham was justified in the sight of God. This did not clear Abraham from his sins and God did not give him faith as a gift. Abraham heard what God said and he believed it. He did not believe that Jesus Christ died and rose again from the dead. He, for the first time, believed that he would be the father of many nations (that is what his name means) and he understood in Ge 15 that he would have a son through the aged Sarah. God said, because he believed that, he was going to count him righteous. He was justified by God. The evidence that Abraham believed God was his action. Sarah became pregnant.

Here is what Abraham believed before Ge 15.

Ge 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house [is] this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Here is what God said about that.

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell (count) the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

And here is the "so then."

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he (the LORD) counted it to him for righteousness.

Now it is faith that justifies always in any time period, and it is faith in what God says in that time, but God does not say the same thing to every one and to be justified by faith one must believe what God says to them. Justification is not salvation.

What we learn about justifying faith is that justification is God's response to one believing what he says to them. Romans 4 compared with Ge 15 makes that abundantly clear.

It is clear in our day as well because we have this:

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; See Ga 1:1.
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

And on your other point. I am not intimidated by a Calvinist who claims my argument is a wildly inaccurate speculation of the scriptures. A Calvinist would not know that. The system of belief that you as a Calvinist preach is different in almost every point than what I believe. The way that is proven is by the various threads on this forum where Calvinists and so called Arminians do not agree on any subject that is brought up. The God of the Calvinists is different.

When you state here that the God of we Calvinists is a different God, are you stating that we are not saved then, due to having another and a false god?

 

[timtofly]

Woe, you're really off the deep end. Literally nothing you have claimed is ever taught in the Bible.
You're claiming that God has universally atoned and saved all humans, but humans overpower God's salvation and defeat God so that they go to hell.
Note that grace is none existent as well as faith. You literally are preaching another gospel that is not ever preached by any person in the Bible.

Nope, you make stuff up, just for the sheer pleasure of making stuff up.

God's grace is abundant in the fact that He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

Are you saying you do not have to repent? Because, God forbid if all repented, He would be forced by His own will to save them from eternal death.

If you remove universal salvation from your vocabulary you yourself would stop pushing universalism, no?

The Atonement is not automatic, like you claim happens to you without repentance. Because repentance (to you) seems like a work of man that (to you) is forcing God to be the Atonement. Either you have repented, or you are a lost Calvinist. Because it is God's will that humans repent, that is come to a state of repentance. Do you think repentance and Atonement are the same thing?

Does God force you to repent? Are the elect only those God forces to repent? So technically you never have to repent, because God did it for you.

From the history I have read those at any time throughout history who have repented were the redeemed. You have a weird boundary between if it is us who repent or God repenting for us.

I do not recall John the Baptist preaching. "Let God repent for you and be baptized".

 

[AustinC]

Nope, you make stuff up, just for the sheer pleasure of making stuff up.

I didn't make up what you wrote:

"I am aware that a human can reject the Atonement that has fully eradicated his sinful condition.

How is salvation contingent on one's choice? Salvation was already provided before any human was ever created. Only the result of one's choice, their eternal destination is contingent on one's choice. Salvation gave them the choice of eternal life. Rejection gave them the choice of eternal damnation."

God's grace is abundant in the fact that He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

Here you repeat your false doctrine of universal salvation at birth, but damnation as time passes.
You are in direct disagreement with Ephesians 2:1-10.

Are you saying you do not have to repent? Because, God forbid if all repented, He would be forced by His own will to save them from eternal death.

I am saying that upon God taking you out of death and giving you life, you will repent of your sins.

If you remove universal salvation from your vocabulary you yourself would stop pushing universalism, no?

I do not preach universal atonement or salvation. I preach what the Bible preaches. You were dead in your trespasses and sins.
Atonement and salvation is particular to those whom God chooses to quicken.

The Atonement is not automatic, like you claim happens to you without repentance.

See above. The atonement is particular to those whom God has given to Jesus. Read John 10.
God does not place a human, merited action, upon people before He can save them. If he did, then salvation would not be by grace alone.

Because repentance (to you) seems like a work of man that (to you) is forcing God to be the Atonement.

Repentance is an effect, caused by God upon God quickening the dead unto life. Read Ephesians 2:1-10.

Either you have repented, or you are a lost Calvinist. Because it is God's will that humans repent, that is come to a state of repentance. Do you think repentance and Atonement are the same thing?

No, repentance and atonement are not the same.
Jesus substitutionary sacrifice on the cross for all that God has given to him is the Atonement. It is particular to those God chooses.
Repentance is an effect God causes to the person that he has chosen to save. Dead men don't repent. They have remorse, but they don't repent. This is where we have goats among the sheep.

Does God force you to repent?

God causes me to see my sin and repent in obedience. As a Christian, I can walk in sin and miss fellowship with my King.

Are the elect only those God forces to repent?

No. The elect are those God chose to graciously save and make alive with Christ. Read Ephesians 2:1-10.

So technically you never have to repent, because God did it for you.

Nope, I have answered this above and you just don't seem to know what God tells you.

From the history I have read those at any time throughout history who have repented were the redeemed.

Not at all. The Ninevites repented and God held off His judgment, but those who did not have faith in the Promised One died in their sins. Remorse does not save you eternally.

You have a weird boundary between if it is us who repent or God repenting for us.

Not at all. I have biblical text that confirm one must be made alive before repentance that shows salvation can happen.
God must cause. The effect will be repentance.

I do not recall John the Baptist preaching. "Let God repent for you and be baptized".

Do you recall that John the Baptist was preaching to the Chosen People of God? Let that sink in. God made a Covenant with the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai. He chose them and setup a temporary covenant with them to point them toward faith in the Promised One who came via the Abrahamic Covenant. When Jesus died, he ended the Mosaic Covenant (" It is finished") and established the New Covenant (Read Hebrews 9).

Your ignorance of the Covenants makes it hard for you to understand the Bible and what God is saying to you.
You have a man-centered theology where man makes the demands and God must respond to those demands. What you teach is not the Gospel.

 

[timtofly]

do not preach universal atonement or salvation. I preach what the Bible preaches. You were dead in your trespasses and sins.
Atonement and salvation is particular to those whom God chooses to quicken.

God is particular about the whole world.

You can keep pointing out that God only has the ability to quicken only whom He chooses, but it is you who limits God, not a person's ability to choose.

You think God just overrides a person's will. I get it.

It is you who thinks the Cross was limited.

You seem to have no concept that the Sovereignty of God allows the majority of Adam's flesh to die and reject the Atonement. You claim God has never given them the opportunity to reject, because then rejection would make God look weak. Yet it is fallen man's repentance that makes God Sovereign because God allows humans to repent.

Of course repentance comes after the Atonement. Why is that making the Atonement universal in my view and not universal in your view? The difference is that in your view the majority of humanity were never Atoned for, thus God planned to fail all those humans. He knew they would die, and He forced them all into the LOF.

 

[JD731]

No, you just struggle with bible interpretation...period.
<irrelevance snipped>
Paul is clear in Romans that those who are "Israel" are those who are justified by faith. The sermon to the Hebrews is clear on this issue as well.
You have been taught by a person who is ignorant of scripture and you simply don't know what you are talking about.
I was raised in dispensationalism so I've heard similar teachings. As I read scripture and truly observed scripture, I kept seeing how disjointed and twisted dispensationalism is. It misses the point of so very much of the Bible.

AustinC, I do not know who you are or what your motive is for posting on these forums and I am certainly not accusing you of anything but ignorance. I know that about you because you display it in every post you make. However, I do believe there are some who post on these forums for the express purpose of sowing discord and subverting the truths of the scriptures. It is evident that many who post here have never read most of the scriptures and it is dead sure they do not believe them. They never exalt the person of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, and their main subject is themselves and how elect they are. At some point we will know these people.

But I would like to address one subject in this answer block and it concerns this amazingly uninformed proclamation you have made that is so patently false that it made me wonder if you are not in that group of disrupters I mentioned above. Here it is;

Paul is clear in Romans that those who are "Israel" are those who are justified by faith.
Do you understand who "all Israel" is???

This is an example of how Calvinism turns wonderful bible truths exactly 180 degrees and teaches the exact opposite of what is said.

The address to "Israel" after the cross and resurrection is given in no uncertain way in Romans and the rest of scripture. Israel is not justified by faith and, in fact, are accused by Paul and God of not believing the gospel.

Following is a prophesy from the OT concerning the days in which Romans was written;

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The "remnant" doctrine is a theme of the OT prophets and it informs us that anytime in Israel's history there was a very small group within the whole who had a heart for God and obeyed him. This is a most important doctrine to know about when reading Romans and the NT. Consider this;

Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Remember, this statement is written in 58 AD, some 28 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is written about Israel that day.
Why didn't Israel attain to righteousness. Do we know? Are we told? The question is anticipated. Look;
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it (righteousness) not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
You say Israel were justified by faith and the text in 58 AD said they were not justified. Who will I believe, you or the text?

What we see here is a division in Israel that has been true throughout her history, and that is that Israel never believed God, but a small remnant of Israel always believed God. So, now, we are going to view Israel with this division in mind.

ISRAEL- LOST - UNSAVED - LARGE NUMBER, in 58 AD when this was written.
REMNANT - BELIEVERS OF ISRAEL - SAVED BY FAITH - SMALL NUMBER

Stop - There is a difference in the text between Israel, the remnant of Israel, and gentiles. Look.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
The text is making these distinctions and one better honor the text and the distinctions if he will understand what God wants us to know.

Now, let's look at the big Israel. What does God desire of them? Look for yourself

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So, in 58 AD, God desired that they get saved, but they were not saved.

Does anyone disagree with God after reading what he says?

Here is what God said about Israel;
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

He asks this questions and then he answered it himself:

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The question - Did Israel hear? Did Israel know? God's answer is YES!

Then he said that he had stretched out his arms to them and they were disobedient and gainsaying. The imagery here is a Father stretching his arms out to his son and asking him to come to him.

Let's go farther with this.

Read this;

Rom 11:I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Here is God saying he has not cast Israel off and if you ask any Calvinist, they will tell you that he has and he is making a new Israel with gentiles in it. It is mind boggling.

He says he is dealing with the remnant, very small as it is , and they are not called Israel. They are called the remnant according to the election of grace. He says that at this "present time," which is 58 AD when this was written, and gentiles had been getting saved since 40 AD, when Peter went to them with the gospel in Acts 10, that Israel had been blinded and they were still Israel.

Well, you can read it for yourself. (you will not believe it, but you can read it)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (which is the remnant) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
And because they were cut off because of unbelief, the gentiles were included to replace them and to fill his house, the house he is building and is the purpose of this present age.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles,
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear

Now watch this and know that it would be over for us all if every one were Calvinist unbelievers.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

There will be a time when gentiles will no longer believe and the house will be full and then this;

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The house will be full and then God will once again deal with Israel and save all who are left after he purges the rebels from among them, and there will never be a remnant doctrine in Israel ever again.

Rom 10:26 and these verses from Acts 3 record the same event that is yet future.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

 

[JD731]

When you state here that the God of we Calvinists is a different God, are you stating that we are not saved then, due to having another and a false god?

I have read many, many topics that have been discussed on the Cavinist/Arminian debate forum and there is no agreement on any of those topics, whether it is who can be saved, how to be saved, when a sinner is saved, who saved the sinner, what being saved means, how to stay saved if you get saved, just to name a very few. Now, if there is that much disagreement on the Jesus we believe in and the God who made us, and how man can respond to him, then I am going to answer your question like this. Someone has a false God who cannot save. I believe Calvinism has a false God. That is my opinion based on all I know and have experienced. Calvinism does not even teach that its God has any motivation to save most of those in the vast sea of humanity.

Having said that, I know that even saved people are susceptible to falling into deceptions and so I do not know who is saved. My op is not about that. I do not know who, besides myself, is saved.

 

[Van]

Notice how this poster never actually addresses biblical arguments?

More personal attacks, with no evidence. These troll like posts should be deleted.
Does Matthew 23:13 indicate lost people were seeking God? Yes.
Does 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicate God chooses people for salvation through faith, a conditional election? Yes
Does 1 Timothy 2:6 say Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all, thus not only for the elect? Yes.
Does 2 Peter 2:1 say Jesus bought those heading for swift destruction? Yes
Does Luke 7:50 say a person's faith (not their God instilled faith) saved her? Yes

Not only this Calvinist, but none of the posting Calvinists have addressed these biblical arguments (other that to say taint so and it does mean what it says) but they are quick to charge others with their mendacity.

 

[AustinC]

AustinC, I do not know who you are or what your motive is for posting on these forums and I am certainly not accusing you of anything but ignorance. I know that about you because you display it in every post you make. However, I do believe there are some who post on these forums for the express purpose of sowing discord and subverting the truths of the scriptures. It is evident that many who post here have never read most of the scriptures and it is dead sure they do not believe them. They never exalt the person of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, and their main subject is themselves and how elect they are. At some point we will know these people.

But I would like to address one subject in this answer block and it concerns this amazingly uninformed proclamation you have made that is so patently false that it made me wonder if you are not in that group of disrupters I mentioned above. Here it is;




This is an example of how Calvinism turns wonderful bible truths exactly 180 degrees and teaches the exact opposite of what is said.

The address to "Israel" after the cross and resurrection is given in no uncertain way in Romans and the rest of scripture. Israel is not justified by faith and, in fact, are accused by Paul and God of not believing the gospel.

Following is a prophesy from the OT concerning the days in which Romans was written;

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

The "remnant" doctrine is a theme of the OT prophets and it informs us that anytime in Israel's history there was a very small group within the whole who had a heart for God and obeyed him. This is a most important doctrine to know about when reading Romans and the NT. Consider this;

Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Remember, this statement is written in 58 AD, some 28 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is written about Israel that day.
Why didn't Israel attain to righteousness. Do we know? Are we told? The question is anticipated. Look;
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it (righteousness) not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
You say Israel were justified by faith and the text in 58 AD said they were not justified. Who will I believe, you or the text?

What we see here is a division in Israel that has been true throughout her history, and that is that Israel never believed God, but a small remnant of Israel always believed God. So, now, we are going to view Israel with this division in mind.

ISRAEL- LOST - UNSAVED - LARGE NUMBER, in 58 AD when this was written.
REMNANT - BELIEVERS OF ISRAEL - SAVED BY FAITH - SMALL NUMBER

Stop - There is a difference in the text between Israel, the remnant of Israel, and gentiles. Look.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
The text is making these distinctions and one better honor the text and the distinctions if he will understand what God wants us to know.

Now, let's look at the big Israel. What does God desire of them? Look for yourself

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

So, in 58 AD, God desired that they get saved, but they were not saved.

Does anyone disagree with God after reading what he says?

Here is what God said about Israel;
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

He asks this questions and then he answered it himself:

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The question - Did Israel hear? Did Israel know? God's answer is YES!

Then he said that he had stretched out his arms to them and they were disobedient and gainsaying. The imagery here is a Father stretching his arms out to his son and asking him to come to him.

Let's go farther with this.

Read this;

Rom 11:I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Here is God saying he has not cast Israel off and if you ask any Calvinist, they will tell you that he has and he is making a new Israel with gentiles in it. It is mind boggling.

He says he is dealing with the remnant, very small as it is , and they are not called Israel. They are called the remnant according to the election of grace. He says that at this "present time," which is 58 AD when this was written, and gentiles had been getting saved since 40 AD, when Peter went to them with the gospel in Acts 10, that Israel had been blinded and they were still Israel.

Well, you can read it for yourself. (you will not believe it, but you can read it)
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election (which is the remnant) hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
And because they were cut off because of unbelief, the gentiles were included to replace them and to fill his house, the house he is building and is the purpose of this present age.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles,
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear

Now watch this and know that it would be over for us all if every one were Calvinist unbelievers.

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

There will be a time when gentiles will no longer believe and the house will be full and then this;

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The house will be full and then God will once again deal with Israel and save all who are left after he purges the rebels from among them, and there will never be a remnant doctrine in Israel ever again.

Rom 10:26 and these verses from Acts 3 record the same event that is yet future.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Your record is broken. It keeps repeating the same error over and over again. You have been shown your error by more than myself, yet you persist in a terrible interpretation most likely taught to you by a person who hasn't understood scripture, but has drank deeply of the dispensational kool-aid that misses the forest because of the trees.

 

[The Archangel]

The "remnant" doctrine is a theme of the OT prophets and it informs us that anytime in Israel's history there was a very small group within the whole who had a heart for God and obeyed him. This is a most important doctrine to know about when reading Romans and the NT.

Since you mention the remnant... Might I ask what makes them faithful to God when all else go after other gods?

The Archangel

 

[Marooncat79]

Since you mention the remnant... Might I ask what makes them faithful to God when all else go after other gods?

The Archangel

I know!! I know!!

shaking my hand and waving


Oh, pick me, pick me!!!

I’m gonna blow it

the answer is “the power of God”