A Dispensationalist View of Calvinism

[JD731]

Since you mention the remnant... Might I ask what makes them faithful to God when all else go after other gods?

The Archangel

I did not mention it, the writer of Romans did, and he was under the inspiration of God. He was one who gave the OT example of the remnant, which was very small in the days of Elijah. Seven thousand men. Now, if you really want to know why they believed God and were justified by faith, you should ask God. When I wonder about things it is what I do. You have probably never read this but I will quote it to you.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I (Paul, the author of Romans) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is always a remnant of Israelite believers whom God justifies because they believe and please him. Remember what Paul said in chapter 9? Read it again here;

Ro 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Just before he quoted Isaiah, he had quoted Hosea, and said this; (Isaiah and Hosea were contemporaries, Isaiah a prophet to the south and Hosea a prophet to the north)

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(one should meditate on this wonderful prophesy and consider it's fulfillment)

Now this doesn't do anything for you fellows and I doubt you even noticed that he was quoting the OT prophets and if you did you probably never looked them up and read them in context. But I have looked them up and studied them intently. I know this for a fact. If anyone is going to be a child of God, it takes a new birth. The only way a person can have a new birth is by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Now I know this prophesy is for this present time in which Paul is writing. He is writing about some people who were God's people but because of their rebellion he said you are not my people, then he said they would one day be the children of the living God. Is that You? Is he talking to Calvinists and Reformed heretics? No, he is speaking of the Northern ten tribes called "Israel" or Ephraim. Look at the verses just before verses 25 & 26.

22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who are these vessels of wrath fitted to destruction? Well, if I were like you Calvinists and Reformed, I sure would not go look at OT prophesies that were quoted to find out. Not if I had a religion that taught me I was special and God liked me and no one else. But if I looked in Hosea, that is a prophesy to the northern kingdom, I would find out that someone in the OT who were God's people and then suddenly were not his people, and are cast out of their land, and cut off from their covenants, and are among the gentiles, are referred to as gentiles. Jews are men of the southern kingdom of Judah.

Trust me when I say this. You men will never get this because you do not believe the words of the Bible. You just don't.

 

[JD731]

Your record is broken. It keeps repeating the same error over and over again. You have been shown your error by more than myself, yet you persist in a terrible interpretation most likely taught to you by a person who hasn't understood scripture, but has drank deeply of the dispensational kool-aid that misses the forest because of the trees.

Just saying over and over that I am wrong because you are right is not a convincing argument, except maybe to people like marooncat79

 

[AustinC]

I did not mention it, the writer of Romans did, and he was under the inspiration of God. He was one who gave the OT example of the remnant, which was very small in the days of Elijah. Seven thousand men. Now, if you really want to know why they believed God and were justified by faith, you should ask God. When I wonder about things it is what I do. You have probably never read this but I will quote it to you.

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I (Paul, the author of Romans) also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

There is always a remnant of Israelite believers whom God justifies because they believe and please him. Remember what Paul said in chapter 9? Read it again here;

Ro 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Just before he quoted Isaiah, he had quoted Hosea, and said this; (Isaiah and Hosea were contemporaries, Isaiah a prophet to the south and Hosea a prophet to the north)

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(one should meditate on this wonderful prophesy and consider it's fulfillment)

Now this doesn't do anything for you fellows and I doubt you even noticed that he was quoting the OT prophets and if you did you probably never looked them up and read them in context. But I have looked them up and studied them intently. I know this for a fact. If anyone is going to be a child of God, it takes a new birth. The only way a person can have a new birth is by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Now I know this prophesy is for this present time in which Paul is writing. He is writing about some people who were God's people but because of their rebellion he said you are not my people, then he said they would one day be the children of the living God. Is that You? Is he talking to Calvinists and Reformed heretics? No, he is speaking of the Northern ten tribes called "Israel" or Ephraim. Look at the verses just before verses 25 & 26.

22 [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who are these vessels of wrath fitted to destruction? Well, if I were like you Calvinists and Reformed, I sure would not go look at OT prophesies that were quoted to find out. Not if I had a religion that taught me I was special and God liked me and no one else. But if I looked in Hosea, that is a prophesy to the northern kingdom, I would find out that someone in the OT who were God's people and then suddenly were not his people, and are cast out of their land, and cut off from their covenants, and are among the gentiles, are referred to as gentiles. Jews are men of the southern kingdom of Judah.

Trust me when I say this. You men will never get this because you do not believe the words of the Bible. You just don't.

You never answered Archangels question.

Since you mention the remnant... Might I ask what makes them faithful to God when all else go after other gods?

The Archangel

By the way, are you aware how many times Paul quotes from the Old Testament in his letter to the Romans?
It's over 70 times.
I am very aware of his connection to the Covenant work of God.
That you would speak as though only you know that Paul quotes Old Covenant passages actually made me laugh out loud.
I am not at a computer so that I could painstakingly take apart your rambling. It will suffice to say that you never answered Archangels question.

 

[AustinC]

Just saying over and over that I am wrong because you are right is not a convincing argument, except maybe to people like marooncat79

Sadly, people have done much more than that with you, and you are simply deaf and blind to what has been shared with you by many people. You are alone.

 

[The Archangel]

Your insolence is thick and un-called for. And you presume to lecture us Calvinists about our attitudes?!

I did not mention it, the writer of Romans did, and he was under the inspiration of God. He was one who gave the OT example of the remnant, which was very small in the days of Elijah. Seven thousand men. Now, if you really want to know why they believed God and were justified by faith, you should ask God. When I wonder about things it is what I do. You have probably never read this but I will quote it to you.

I have read it... I'm just not quite sure you have. In Romans 11, Paul says:

[2] God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? [3] “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” [4] But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [5] So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (Romans 11:2–5 ESV, empahsis mine)​

Now... Paul is quite clear here: God keeps the 7,000 for himself. He uses the reflexive pronoun ἐμαυτοῦ to convey that it is God doing the keeping.

Romans 11 quotes 1 Kings 19:18--"[18] Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (1 Kings 19:18 ESV, emphasis mine) Paul is in no way editorializing in Romans 11. In 1 Kings 19:18 the word "leave" is the Hebrew שאר (sha'ar) and it is in the Hifil stem which gives it a reflexive quality. So the verb itself is conveying the meaning that God (the subject of this first-person singular verb) has caused these 7,000 to remain faithful to Him.

The remnant is God's doing. The "remnant" are the believers. If the believers in Elijah's time were chosen by God's grace and that's why they believed, then the believers in Paul's time were chosen by God's grace and that's why they believed. That's the point Paul is making. Any one who believes today believes because they were chosen by God in His grace.

There is always a remnant of Israelite believers whom God justifies because they believe and please him. Remember what Paul said in chapter 9

Not at all... They believe because of what God has done; their belief is in no way the cause of what God has done.

Now this doesn't do anything for you fellows and I doubt you even noticed that he was quoting the OT prophets and if you did you probably never looked them up and read them in context. But I have looked them up and studied them intently. I know this for a fact. If anyone is going to be a child of God, it takes a new birth. The only way a person can have a new birth is by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Now I know this prophesy is for this present time in which Paul is writing. He is writing about some people who were God's people but because of their rebellion he said you are not my people, then he said they would one day be the children of the living God. Is that You? Is he talking to Calvinists and Reformed heretics? No, he is speaking of the Northern ten tribes called "Israel" or Ephraim. Look at the verses just before verses 25 & 26.

Again, you should not throw-around the word "heretic," especially since you are the one kicking against the goads of Scripture itself.

Now, in the above paragraph, weeding through the bunkum, you say "If anyone is going to be a child of God, it takes new birth." It's funny you should mention that. When we see Jesus talking to Nicodemus--when Jesus says "you must be born again"--Jesus is not commanding Nicodemus to go get himself born-again. The verb "born-again" is passive, meaning that the subject (Nicodemus) cannot be the one doing the acting and, by definition, must be acted upon. So, in the John 3 passage, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that something must be done to him, not done by him.

So, the new birth comes as a result of the work of God; He is the one who brings the new birth.

Trust me when I say this. You men will never get this because you do not believe the words of the Bible. You
just don't.

Perhaps you should study better.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

You never answered Archangels question.



By the way, are you aware how many times Paul quotes from the Old Testament in his letter to the Romans?
It's over 70 times.
I am very aware of his connection to the Covenant work of God.
That you would speak as though only you know that Paul quotes Old Covenant passages actually made me laugh out loud.
I am not at a computer so that I could painstakingly take apart your rambling. It will suffice to say that you never answered Archangels question.

Paul does not quote OT passages that were written to gentiles but OT passages that were written about gentiles. There is a difference Here is an example;

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
There is not a Calvinist alive today who believes that statement. Not a one. One of the main points of Calvinism is in John 6 where Calvinists inserts themselves as special chosen gentiles of God when Jesus Christ is ministering to Israel, the definition of the circumcision.
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause (the cause is so the gentiles will glorify God) I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (his people are the Jews, Israel)
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. (Jews, Israel)
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise (from the dead and from the right hand of the Father, where he is now seated) to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Try this one on for size. This is the close of the history recorded in the Acts. It is near the end of the apostolic era of church history.

Acts 28:6 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is in full agreement with what Paul wrote as the reason God sent the gospel to the gentiles in Romans 11. It was because the people of God, the Jews and Israel, would not believe the gospel of Christ, which is that he came to save them.

Do you remember what I showed you in my last comments to you, how that God had held out his arms to Israel and said come, and they would not come.

The God whom you promote here is vastly different than the God I preach,. Your God is a false God.

 

[JD731]

Your insolence is thick and un-called for. And you presume to lecture us Calvinists about our attitudes?!



I have read it... I'm just not quite sure you have. In Romans 11, Paul says:

[2] God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? [3] “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” [4] But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” [5] So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (Romans 11:2–5 ESV, empahsis mine)​

Now... Paul is quite clear here: God keeps the 7,000 for himself. He uses the reflexive pronoun ἐμαυτοῦ to convey that it is God doing the keeping.

Romans 11 quotes 1 Kings 19:18--"[18] Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” (1 Kings 19:18 ESV, emphasis mine) Paul is in no way editorializing in Romans 11. In 1 Kings 19:18 the word "leave" is the Hebrew שאר (sha'ar) and it is in the Hifil stem which gives it a reflexive quality. So the verb itself is conveying the meaning that God (the subject of this first-person singular verb) has caused these 7,000 to remain faithful to Him.

The remnant is God's doing. The "remnant" are the believers. If the believers in Elijah's time were chosen by God's grace and that's why they believed, then the believers in Paul's time were chosen by God's grace and that's why they believed. That's the point Paul is making. Any one who believes today believes because they were chosen by God in His grace.



Not at all... They believe because of what God has done; their belief is in no way the cause of what God has done.



Again, you should not throw-around the word "heretic," especially since you are the one kicking against the goads of Scripture itself.

Now, in the above paragraph, weeding through the bunkum, you say "If anyone is going to be a child of God, it takes new birth." It's funny you should mention that. When we see Jesus talking to Nicodemus--when Jesus says "you must be born again"--Jesus is not commanding Nicodemus to go get himself born-again. The verb "born-again" is passive, meaning that the subject (Nicodemus) cannot be the one doing the acting and, by definition, must be acted upon. So, in the John 3 passage, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that something must be done to him, not done by him.

So, the new birth comes as a result of the work of God; He is the one who brings the new birth.



Perhaps you should study better.

The Archangel

You have a great big eye and a very limited range of vision Aa. The major thing you see in all the passages that have been quoted to you is limited atonement based upon the remnant of Israel doctrine that is given in the context of God explaining why there are only a few of Israel in this present age who would be saved,. It is not because the vast majority were not chosen, or that God did not desire to save them, it was because they would not believe him. They were expressly chosen by God himself to be his people. If you would have read the OT and believed it, you would know that. But you are in the same condition that Israel was in, you are an unbeliever in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The "gospel" you preach is different. It is another gospel.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

As God continues God reveals that he is faithful to his promises to this people, but to realize his promises, they must be faithful to him, which they were not, but a few in any generation were, hence the remnant doctrine through which God kept his promises to them active. Look;

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.
12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the Lord thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.

This is his chosen he is speaking to here, Israel, those whom he loved but some of whom would not love him back, but instead hated him (Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us).
He will at some time destroy them and do it face to face, he said. Now watch this:

13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Here is what I want you to see:

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people (the people are Israel).

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

God can love when he himself is unloved and is even hated, but he does not force anyone to love him. He has mercy towards those he loves, and patience, and even kindness (it rains on the just and the unjust) but one who refuses to love him cannot fit into his kingdom and will eventually be destroyed and perish because of it.

I have some more things to say to you to try to persuade you to believe. Later.

 

[AustinC]

Paul does not quote OT passages that were written to gentiles but OT passages that were written about gentiles. There is a difference Here is an example;

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
There is not a Calvinist alive today who believes that statement. Not a one. One of the main points of Calvinism is in John 6 where Calvinists inserts themselves as special chosen gentiles of God when Jesus Christ is ministering to Israel, the definition of the circumcision.
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause (the cause is so the gentiles will glorify God) I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. (his people are the Jews, Israel)
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. (Jews, Israel)
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise (from the dead and from the right hand of the Father, where he is now seated) to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Try this one on for size. This is the close of the history recorded in the Acts. It is near the end of the apostolic era of church history.

Acts 28:6 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.
17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

This is in full agreement with what Paul wrote as the reason God sent the gospel to the gentiles in Romans 11. It was because the people of God, the Jews and Israel, would not believe the gospel of Christ, which is that he came to save them.

Do you remember what I showed you in my last comments to you, how that God had held out his arms to Israel and said come, and they would not come.

The God whom you promote here is vastly different than the God I preach,. Your God is a false God.

Of course Paul doesn't quote Old Covenant passages written to Gentiles. God always addresses himself to his chosen, covenant people.
WE are his chosen covenant people if we have been established in faith in the Promised One who redeemed us from our sins.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

What does "all scripture" mean to you?
Sir, you are working hard to chop up the Bible and ignore vast parts as irrelevant to you. But all, in 1 Timothy 3:16-17, is inclusive of the entire canon of the Bible. The entire Bible is profitable for "us."

You claim my God is a false God. Yet it is I, and others here, who embrace the whole of scripture while you are throwing out vast chunks because you say they don't apply.

No matter how you slice it, you have openly violated the rules here at the BB as you are calling many of us unsaved, pagans, who worship a different God.

Or, you are openly admitting that the God you worship is not the God of the entire Bible. The jury seems to be out, but the way you argue, you imagine you are exclusively correct in your interpretation, even though every poster at the BB has tried to correct you in your error. Let that sink in to you.

 

[JesusFan]

I have read many, many topics that have been discussed on the Cavinist/Arminian debate forum and there is no agreement on any of those topics, whether it is who can be saved, how to be saved, when a sinner is saved, who saved the sinner, what being saved means, how to stay saved if you get saved, just to name a very few. Now, if there is that much disagreement on the Jesus we believe in and the God who made us, and how man can respond to him, then I am going to answer your question like this. Someone has a false God who cannot save. I believe Calvinism has a false God. That is my opinion based on all I know and have experienced. Calvinism does not even teach that its God has any motivation to save most of those in the vast sea of humanity.

Having said that, I know that even saved people are susceptible to falling into deceptions and so I do not know who is saved. My op is not about that. I do not know who, besides myself, is saved.

So you are saying that we Calvinists hold to a false God, have a false gospel, and we are not saved, correct>

 

[The Archangel]

You have a great big eye and a very limited range of vision Aa. The major thing you see in all the passages that have been quoted to you is limited atonement based upon the remnant of Israel doctrine that is given in the context of God explaining why there are only a few of Israel in this present age who would be saved,. It is not because the vast majority were not chosen, or that God did not desire to save them, it was because they would not believe him. They were expressly chosen by God himself to be his people. If you would have read the OT and believed it, you would know that. But you are in the same condition that Israel was in, you are an unbeliever in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The "gospel" you preach is different. It is another gospel. (Emphasis mine)

Hmmm.... Really?! I'm an unbeliever because I don't agree with your schlock? Really?!

The gospel I preach is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. You have made a false assumption about my "gospel" and my faith. You've turned to the ad hominem probably because your points have been shown to be wrong. Rather than learn, you lash-out. In the end, this is not an issue of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. The issue here is your ability--or lack thereof--to properly handle the word of God with any hermeneutical acumen.

The Archangel

 

[Dr. Bob]

The hateful language - you are an unbeliever in the gospel of Jesus Christ - is beyond the pale. Warning points issued. Added posts of this ilk will mount up to suspension or expulsion quickly.

Sad to read such vitriol against brothers in Christ.

 

[JD731]

Of course Paul doesn't quote Old Covenant passages written to Gentiles. God always addresses himself to his chosen, covenant people.
WE are his chosen covenant people if we have been established in faith in the Promised One who redeemed us from our sins.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

I don't know what that is suppose to mean, AustinC. God has never made a covenant with gentiles. You cannot find that in the scriptures anywhere. What he has done is make gentiles "partakers" of the new covenant that he has made with Israel. That is different than making a covenant with us. Then, he has only instituted the spiritual blessings of the covenant, and not physical blessings (that is why Christians get sick and die sometimes), the spiritual blessings being the forgiveness of sins in the name of Jesus Christ and by his sacrificial blood, and the gift of the Holy Ghost to indwell us and give us eternal life by his presence in our bodies, and an entrance into his body, the church of Jesus Christ..

Rom 1`5:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The heirs are Israel, the same body with those of Israel, and partakers of God's promise, which is defined as the Holy Ghost to abide in the body

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

What does "all scripture" mean to you?

All scripture means all scripture. What else would it mean? If all scripture means that everything that is written is for everybody in the world, why didn't all the nations of the world build tabernacles and temples and bring blood offerings and observe the feasts of Israel during the 1500 years that Israel did? God sure did not condemn the nations for failing to do so for the simple reason he did not tell them to. The instructions for somebody to do that is in the scriptures and takes up a goodly amount of space in them.You must have understood it was not written to instruct you because I doubt you have ever observed those instructions. If you have, my apologies.

Sir, you are working hard to chop up the Bible and ignore vast parts as irrelevant to you. But all, in 1 Timothy 3:16-17, is inclusive of the entire canon of the Bible. The entire Bible is profitable for "us."

This is not true. I have basically been speaking of texts in Romans concerning justification by faith and making the claim that it is God the Father who justifies a sinner by his faith before he is saved from his sins. I offered texts from Romans (which you ignored without comment) showing that what I said is true, not because I said it, but because it is what the texts say.
Now, the entire bible is profitable for us but the entire bible is not instructions for us, albeit, there is instructions in it for all of us. We must honor those divisions or we will confuse what God has wrought and fall prey to deception and other errors.

You claim my God is a false God. Yet it is I, and others here, who embrace the whole of scripture while you are throwing out vast chunks because you say they don't apply.

You embrace a religion that makes the claim that it embraces the whole of scriptures. You have offered no proof that you embrace the whole of scripture. I have offered scriptures that say point blank that it is God's desire to save Israel by giving them the righteousness of Christ as his gift and that all day long (From 30 AD til 58 AD when Romans was written) he had spread forth his hands, not to a people who were not chosen to be saved, but to a disobedient and gainsaying people. In other words, a people who would not respond and come to him in faith, even those, he said they had heard his call.

You do not believe that and you have said so.

No matter how you slice it, you have openly violated the rules here at the BB as you are calling many of us unsaved, pagans, who worship a different God.

I have not called anyone unsaved. How would I know that? I have not called you pagans.
I have stated my evidence that you and the others you mention do not believe in the same gospel or a Christ whose sacrifice means the same things. It is the Calvinism/ Arminian debate forum on this very Baptist Board. There is no agreement on anything, any topic, no matter how basic. The only thing that some of both stripes agrees with one another on is that both are preaching the same Jesus and the same way to be justified and saved. This to me is mind boggling. One is not allowed to defend the true gospel of Jesus Christ on this board.

Jesus not dying for 99.5% of the world, leaving all those people without hope is not the gospel, if the gospel means "good news" "glad tidings." I do not know why there is a debate about that.

I am taking sides and that divides me from you.

Or, you are openly admitting that the God you worship is not the God of the entire Bible. The jury seems to be out, but the way you argue, you imagine you are exclusively correct in your interpretation, even though every poster at the BB has tried to correct you in your error. Let that sink in to you.

If believing the words of the scriptures is wrong, then you are right; I am guilty.

 

[kyredneck]

Sad to read such vitriol against brothers in Christ.

I reported the OP right off the bat, but nothing was done.

 

[The Archangel]

I have not called anyone unsaved. How would I know that? I have not called you pagans. I have stated my evidence that you and the others you mention do not believe in the same gospel or a Christ whose sacrifice means the same things. It is the Calvinism/ Arminian debate forum on this very Baptist Board. There is no agreement on anything, any topic, no matter how basic. The only thing that some of both stripes agrees with one another on is that both are preaching the same Jesus and the same way to be justified and saved. This to me is mind boggling. One is not allowed to defend the true gospel of Jesus Christ on this board.

False...

But you are in the same condition that Israel was in, you are an unbeliever in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The "gospel" you preach is different. It is another gospel.

Those are your own words. You have contradicted yourself.

You are aware, I'm sure, that Paul says, "[6] I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—[7] not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [8] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6–9 ESV)

So, Paul equates preaching a different gospel with being accursed--that is being a non-believer.

The Archangel

 

[JD731]

The hateful language - you are an unbeliever in the gospel of Jesus Christ - is beyond the pale. Warning points issued. Added posts of this ilk will mount up to suspension or expulsion quickly.

Sad to read such vitriol against brothers in Christ.

My bible says that the gospel of Jesus Christ is the power (authority) of God unto salvation, to every one who believes it, to the Jews first and also to the Greek. Rom 3:16

Have you ever met a cognizant person who the gospel of Jesus Christ is not the power of God to save, because they cannot believe it?

And, why is it hate speech to defend this truth on a Baptist board and why is a Baptist more in danger of suffering quick expulsion or suspension for insisting it is true than men who argues that a very high percent of the world's population cannot be saved whether they hear the gospel of not because they have not been prechosen to believe?

So much for the power of God through the gospel, eh?

 

[JD731]

I reported the OP right off the bat, but nothing was done.

Okay, I do not believe I am chosen to be saved personally before the foundation of the world. I believe I have intelligence, reason, and will. I can process information I hear and make a decision on it, even if I do not have all the facts. I believe I am saved by the grace of God because I had nothing to offer him for his marvelous salvation. I believe his salvation is a gift to me and I believe his Spirit lives in me and is my life. I believe that every person alive today and possesses intelligence, reason, and will can be saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, but not only can be saved by believing, but is commanded to be saved by believing the gospel.

Where am I wrong about that, and what do you believe?

 

[JD731]

False...



Those are your own words. You have contradicted yourself.

You are aware, I'm sure, that Paul says, "[6] I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—[7] not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. [8] But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:6–9 ESV)

So, Paul equates preaching a different gospel with being accursed--that is being a non-believer.

The Archangel

What is the gospel in you dictionary?

That all can be saved or that some will (of God) be saved?

 

[kyredneck]

Okay, I do not believe I am chosen to be saved personally before the foundation of the world. I believe I have intelligence, reason, and will. I can process information I hear and make a decision on it, even if I do not have all the facts. I believe I am saved by the grace of God because I had nothing to offer him for his marvelous salvation. I believe his salvation is a gift to me and I believe his Spirit lives in me and is my life. I believe that every person alive today and possesses intelligence, reason, and will can be saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, but not only can be saved by believing, but is commanded to be saved by believing the gospel.

Where am I wrong about that, and what do you believe?

The big 'I' is where all you free-willers are wrong, and I'll tell you what I don't believe - just because your theology reeks with the flesh doesn't necessarily mean you're the spawn of the devil as you accused half the membership of this board, as noted in post #13.

 

[The Archangel]

What is the gospel in you dictionary?

That all can be saved or that some will (of God) be saved?

At root, the definition of "gospel" is "Good news."

Frankly, that any would be saved is good news since God is under no obligation to save anyone.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Okay, I do not believe I am chosen to be saved personally before the foundation of the world.

No comment offered at this time.

I believe I have intelligence, reason, and will. I can process information I hear and make a decision on it, even if I do not have all the facts.

That intelligence, reason, and will is fallen, as is everyone's. Jeremiah 17:9 says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately sick. In Genesis 6, we are told the thoughts and intents of man's heart are "only evil continually." The fall affects everything--intellect, emotion, etc.--all of it.

I believe I am saved by the grace of God because I had nothing to offer him for his marvelous salvation.

I believe his salvation is a gift to me and I believe his Spirit lives in me and is my life.

Except you seem to have been arguing that salvation comes as a result of your belief.

I believe that every person alive today and possesses intelligence, reason, and will can be saved by believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, but not only can be saved by believing, but is commanded to be saved by believing the gospel.

Salvation requires belief. Romans 10 is quite clear about that. But, every person alive today is affected by the Fall and their hearts desire only evil continually, too.

This is exactly why Jesus tells Nicodemus "you must be born again." Again, with the verb being in the passive, something must be done to Nicodemus in order that he believe.

The Archangel