A False Teaching continued...

[SovereignGrace]

You misquote me. I didn't say that. Peter did.
But I did explain it.

So answer it. In your opinion, can I be saved, seeing I believe a 'damnable heresy'? I believe in limited atonement, I'll tell any and all who want to know I believe in limited atonement. Now, please answer me. Am I lost, monsieur? I believe in what you call a 'damnable heresy'. It is time to put up or shut up. The Balle est dans votre camp, monsieur.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where does the Scripture say "if one is left to himself he will remain lost"?
Give your answer and demonstrate its relevance.

Uhhhhh, read Proverbs 29, with une attention très spéciale to verse 15.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where does the Scripture say "if one is left to himself he will remain lost"?
Give your answer and demonstrate its relevance.

Also read Proverbs 18.

 

[DHK]

So answer it. In your opinion, can I be saved, seeing I believe a 'damnable heresy'? I believe in limited atonement, I'll tell any and all who want to know I believe in limited atonement. Now, please answer me. Am I lost, monsieur? I believe in what you call a 'damnable heresy'. It is time to put up or shut up. The Balle est dans votre camp, monsieur.

(KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

(MKJV) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

(YLT) And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

As always context is very important.
The context is false teachers and false prophets who enter into a church. They bring with them (as the MKJV and others say) destructive heresies or teachings. The root of this word "heresies" is that which causes division.

First you already go to a Calvinistic church.
They don't consider you a false teacher.
Second, this is a board for debate, not a church. There are even Catholics here, those that we would never consider for membership.
Third, if you did become a member of our church and started spreading Calvinistic doctrine among the members then you would be destructive and divisive and cause spiritual ruin not only to the people of the church but to yourself as well.

I have seen more churches ruined, destroyed, and divided by Calvinism than by any other doctrine. Other things that I have seen divide churches are music, change of leadership, and the Charismatic movement, but lately Calvinism is the #1 on the list.

Is it a damnable heresy? Remember that word was written over 400 years ago. It has a far stronger meaning now. Now the MKJV (modern KJV) translates the same word as "destructive," which is very accurate. It is a destructive doctrine. It doesn't damn people to hell (inferred). It is destructive in the church that is not Calvinistic. It is evident that Peter was not Calvinistic. This verse cannot be avoided. The truth is there. He taught against Limited Atonement. Christ died even for the false teachers and false prophets mentioned in the verse.

No, I don't consider you a false teacher. But if you came to my church and started spreading Calvinistic doctrine (which is against our statement of faith), then you would be a divisive false teacher. Clear enough?

 

[DHK]

Also read Proverbs 18.

and

Uhhhhh, read Proverbs 29, with une attention très spéciale to verse 15.

Nothing in Proverbs 18.

Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

Nothing here about salvation.
A child left to himself brings his mother to shame. It doesn't say he is unable to be saved. Where do you get that from. I am sure you brought shame to your mother a time or two when you were growing up. Or were you a "perfect" child?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Of course I read it. I gave you a detailed answer which you did not bother to answer. Isn't that typical?

What detailed answer. You never addressed any of the Scripture quotations and instead told me about some chap you used to know. How am I supposed to answer that? I never met the fellow.

Secondly, your answer avoided the real crux of the question. Instead of answering the question you described the Christian walk.

I was replying to steaver's post, not to you.

I answered you how many have pretended to walk the Christian walk in such a way that they have fooled the elect, and for a good number of years. In that way your answer is not convincing.

There is nothing new in that. 'Demas has left me, having loved the world.'

Thus I ask you again: Having avoided the real question:
How can you know that you are one of the elect?
Do you really have any assurance that you are one of the elect?

I know that I am saved because I am a sinner and Christ died for such (1 Tim. 1:15). I have repented of my sins and have trusted in Christ for salvation. He has promised not to turn me away (John 6:37). I believe the promises of God and therefore I am saved. I am not foolish enough to believe that I saved myself by believing. I understand that every part of my salvation, including my faith, is a gift of God.

However, if I or anyone else is persisting in a known sin for any length of time, I (he) can have no assurance of salvation because our Lord says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." If one of the Lord's sheep goes astray, the Good Shepherd will go and bring it back. If He doesn't do so, the reason must be that it is not one of His sheep.

2 Cor. 13:5 urges us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. There is a number of 'tests of life.' Several of them are to be found in 1 John. In my earlier post I gave a link to my article on the evidences of the New Birth. You might care to have a look. https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/new-birth-9-evidences-of-the-new-birth/

 

[DHK]

I know that I am saved because I am a sinner and Christ died for such (1 Tim. 1:15). I have repented of my sins and have trusted in Christ for salvation. He has promised not to turn me away (John 6:37). I believe the promises of God and therefore I am saved. I am not foolish enough to believe that I saved myself by believing. I understand that every part of my salvation, including my faith, is a gift of God.

However, if I or anyone else is persisting in a known sin for any length of time, I (he) can have no assurance of salvation because our Lord says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." If one of the Lord's sheep goes astray, the Good Shepherd will go and bring it back. If He doesn't do so, the reason must be that it is not one of His sheep.

2 Cor. 13:5 urges us to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. There is a number of 'tests of life.' Several of them are to be found in 1 John. In my earlier post I gave a link to my article on the evidences of the New Birth. You might care to have a look. https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/new-birth-9-evidences-of-the-new-birth/

I appreciate your testimony.
I don't think any of us are "foolish enough to believe that I saved myself by believing."
We all agree that salvation is of the Lord and it is Christ that saves.

As you testified:
"I know that I am saved because I am a sinner and Christ died for such (1 Tim. 1:15). I have repented of my sins and have trusted in Christ for salvation."

You are one of the few that have come out and testified to such an event.
Most of the Calvinists on this board seem to avoid "I believed..." (or trusted).
Some have even said that they have been a Christian all their lives, and cannot point to "an event," such as you just did. That is why I have asked the question that I have been asking. It is good to hear the testimony of believers. One shouldn't be hesitant in giving it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Spurgeon could not teach or preach in that church????

He would be a divisive false teacher???? Yes....it is getting clearer....JL DAGG could not teach in that church...he would be a divisive false teacher....lol......J.P. BOYCE.....same thing....interesting. .....only you could teach????

 

[DHK]

Spurgeon could not teach or preach in that church????

He would be a divisive false teacher???? Yes....it is getting clearer....JL DAGG could not teach in that church...he would be a divisive false teacher....lol......J.P. BOYCE.....same thing....interesting. .....only you could teach????

Go back and read what I posted. Then post the proper conclusion.
Otherwise don't post foolishness.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

(KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

(MKJV) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who secretly will bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

(YLT) And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,

As always context is very important.
The context is false teachers and false prophets who enter into a church. They bring with them (as the MKJV and others say) destructive heresies or teachings. The root of this word "heresies" is that which causes division.

First you already go to a Calvinistic church.
They don't consider you a false teacher.
Second, this is a board for debate, not a church. There are even Catholics here, those that we would never consider for membership.
Third, if you did become a member of our church and started spreading Calvinistic doctrine among the members then you would be destructive and divisive and cause spiritual ruin not only to the people of the church but to yourself as well.

I have seen more churches ruined, destroyed, and divided by Calvinism than by any other doctrine. Other things that I have seen divide churches are music, change of leadership, and the Charismatic movement, but lately Calvinism is the #1 on the list.

Is it a damnable heresy? Remember that word was written over 400 years ago. It has a far stronger meaning now. Now the MKJV (modern KJV) translates the same word as "destructive," which is very accurate. It is a destructive doctrine. It doesn't damn people to hell (inferred). It is destructive in the church that is not Calvinistic. It is evident that Peter was not Calvinistic. This verse cannot be avoided. The truth is there. He taught against Limited Atonement. Christ died even for the false teachers and false prophets mentioned in the verse.

No, I don't consider you a false teacher. But if you came to my church and started spreading Calvinistic doctrine (which is against our statement of faith), then you would be a divisive false teacher. Clear enough?

Brother DHK,

I am glad you clarified your position on the Peter verse. I always thought you thought of all on the board who hold to limited atonement were unsaved because of how you view that verse. This is why I thought you so vehemently debate us on limited atonement, in order to save our souls.

I do not believe those believing in the five points should join a church that has opposite articles of faith or confessions of faith, likewise those who do not believe in the five points should not infiltrate churches that do in order to try to change their beliefs, this only leads to discord.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

However, if I or anyone else is persisting in a known sin for any length of time, I (he) can have no assurance of salvation because our Lord says, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." If one of the Lord's sheep goes astray, the Good Shepherd will go and bring it back. If He doesn't do so, the reason must be that it is not one of His sheep.

Brother Martin,

A true child of God will not live in gross sin for a long prolonged period of time and will also have good works resulting from their faith, however we do a child of God can commit gross sin (e.g. David adultery, murder), also it should be noted nobody knows how long a period of time a child of God can persist in such a sin and to speculate on such is exactly that mere speculation as the scripture does not tell us. For example, Rahab was a harlot, but at the same time a child of God. I do not believe she would live that way her whole life (hopefully the Jews led her out of that path), but for a time it cannot be denied that it is a fact that she was both a harlot and a child of God at the same time. "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." (Hebrews 11:31). Also, Solomon was a child of God, but according to 1 Kings 11:3 Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), despite God saying in Deuteronomy 17:14-17 that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

I am glad you clarified your position on the Peter verse. I always thought you thought of all on the board who hold to limited atonement were unsaved because of how you view that verse. This is why I thought you so vehemently debate us on limited atonement, in order to save our souls.

I do not believe those believing in the five points should join a church that has opposite articles of faith or confessions of faith, likewise those who do not believe in the five points should not infiltrate churches that do in order to try to change their beliefs, this only leads to discord.

Yes, Paul preached time and again that we (in the local church) should be of one mind; in unity. I don't believe that he meant for every church to be an exact clone of each other church, however.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Brother Martin,

A true child of God will not live in gross sin for a long prolonged period of time and will also have good works resulting from their faith, however we do a child of God can commit gross sin (e.g. David adultery, murder), also it should be noted nobody knows how long a period of time a child of God can persist in such a sin and to speculate on such is exactly that mere speculation as the scripture does not tell us. For example, Rahab was a harlot, but at the same time a child of God. I do not believe she would live that way her whole life (hopefully the Jews led her out of that path), but for a time it cannot be denied that it is a fact that she was both a harlot and a child of God at the same time. "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." (Hebrews 11:31). Also, Solomon was a child of God, but according to 1 Kings 11:3 Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (essentially wives of a lower status), despite God saying in Deuteronomy 17:14-17 that the kings were not supposed to multiply wives.

Thank you, brother. You will note what I said: 'However, if I or anyone else is persisting in a known sin for any length of time, I (he) can have no assurance of salvation' I did not say he cannot be saved.

BTW, I take it that Rahab had repented of her sin by the time the spies came to her. She had stalks of flax drying on her roof (Josh. 2:6) which suggests that he had turned away from her former life and was earning her living as a seamstress. At all events, she settled down with a nice Jewish boy and had a family (Matt. 1:5).

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Thank you, brother. You will note what I said: 'However, if I or anyone else is persisting in a known sin for any length of time, I (he) can have no assurance of salvation' I did not say he cannot be saved.

BTW, I take it that Rahab had repented of her sin by the time the spies came to her. She had stalks of flax drying on her roof (Josh. 2:6) which suggests that he had turned away from her former life and was earning her living as a seamstress. At all events, she settled down with a nice Jewish boy and had a family (Matt. 1:5).

Brother Martin,

Point taken, believers in continuing sin will more than likely lose assurance. I would venture to say from personal experience, even believers who are not in continuing sin, when they sin from time to time may even doubt their salvation, however the fact that one can see their depraved state is evidence that they are a child of grace. An unregenerate person does not see themselves as depraved, this is why Christ said to the Pharisees, " If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth " (John 9:41) and also, "for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13). The "righteous" in that verse is self righteous.

I disagree with you in that I believe Rahab was a practicing harlot when the spies arrived as scripture calls her a harlot in Joshua 2:1, 6:17, and 6:25. It does not say she "was a harlot" (past tense), however I do agree with you in that I too believe at some point it is reasonable to believe the Jews rescued her from this way of life and she settled down, especially due to the verse you cited (Matthew 1:5) I do not believe it is possible for a true child of God to live as a harlot their whole life, otherwise that would be like saying the flesh is more powerful than the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you, brother. You will note what I said: 'However, if I or anyone else is persisting in a known sin for any length of time, I (he) can have no assurance of salvation' I did not say he cannot be saved.

BTW, I take it that Rahab had repented of her sin by the time the spies came to her. She had stalks of flax drying on her roof (Josh. 2:6) which suggests that he had turned away from her former life and was earning her living as a seamstress. At all events, she settled down with a nice Jewish boy and had a family (Matt. 1:5).

That that all of us would agree that we should not be practicing and enjoying and holding unto our known sins without any conviction, as that would require us to make sure our salvation is a real one!

 

[DHK]

That that all of us would agree that we should not be practicing and enjoying and holding unto our known sins without any conviction, as that would require us to make sure our salvation is a real one!

Sin is dealt with by the local church.
God deals with salvation and knows them that are his.
Man cannot look upon the heart and declare who is saved and who is not. The church's responsibility is only to keep the church pure of sin.
Paul treated the fornicator of 1Cor.5:1-5, (though living in gross immorality), as a saved brother in Christ. And by all indications he was. He repented of that particular sin and later was admitted back into the church as a brother in Christ (the same standing he had before he sinned. He didn't lose his salvation through sin.

Your view makes salvation a salvation of works. He is only saved if his works prove that he is saved. That is salvation by works, and not of grace.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sin is dealt with by the local church.
God deals with salvation and knows them that are his.
Man cannot look upon the heart and declare who is saved and who is not. The church's responsibility is only to keep the church pure of sin.
Paul treated the fornicator of 1Cor.5:1-5, (though living in gross immorality), as a saved brother in Christ. And by all indications he was. He repented of that particular sin and later was admitted back into the church as a brother in Christ (the same standing he had before he sinned. He didn't lose his salvation through sin.

Your view makes salvation a salvation of works. He is only saved if his works prove that he is saved. That is salvation by works, and not of grace.

As Apostle paul would state"God forbid!"

My point was addressing just the area of the truth that when a person is really saved by experiencing the grace of God in their lives, that they will have some fruit to support their professing of being now a Christian, as they would show that be having some measure of conviction and some desire to get "right with God" by connfession and repenting of their known sins...
NOT stating that sinning shows no salvation, as hold to eternal security of one saved by the Lord, but would also say that we are under obligation to make sur eand confirm that it is a 'say so and is so" salvation!
ction or desire to come back to God, and be a true child of God!
No one can live in a state of habitual and continual sinning, without ANY conviction or desire to come back to God, and be a true child of God!

That is from the Apostle John, not me!