A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed

[Rippon]

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
--To those who "have (already) obtained like precious faith..."
--It is not about the unsaved, but the saved.

How then did they become saved?

I never said anything about the Lord giving faith to the saved.

Of course not --but the text clearly does. However, you are in the habit of inverting what passages plainly state.

The Lord doesn't give faith to the unsaved, the unregenerate in order to believe the gospel.

Of course He does. No one would be regenerate without the fact that the Lord gives faith and repentance.

You added your own words here. That is not what it says. Why add to the scriptures.

I commented on Acts 18:27. I had remarked :"By the grace of God they had been given faith to believe." Yet you tell me my words are a "twisted interpretation" akin to J.W. beliefs!

You are losing it.

Here comes the personal attacks again. You don't know how to debate so you resort to ad hominems.

Let's get this straight. You accused Protestant of "deliberately butchering the Scriptures" when his post was saturated with biblical truth. Then you repeated your "butcher" charge later in your same post (#137).

You told Protestant :"To come to this false conclusion that God gives faith to the unregenerate is quite astounding."

Try to show some integrity Mister Mod.

to you I am a "Bible Butcher" because I am not a Calvinist. Nice.

There are other Arminians who don't butcher the Bible to the extent that you do.

--An endless stream of strawmen coming forth from the treasure of Rippon!

The last paragraph of the post of mine you quoted was utterly bibllical, but you call it a treasure trove of strawmen. That's vintage DHK-speak.

 

[DHK]

The last paragraph of the post of mine you quoted was utterly bibllical, but you call it a treasure trove of strawmen. That's vintage DHK-speak.

At first glance it seems like an attack on me, but for clarity sake is the "you" personal or generic? (as you would speak to an audience).
Here is what you said:

If you are a Christian you didn't generate faith to believe in Christ. God gave you the faith to believe because of and through his grace. You were in an unregenerate state and he gave you faith and repentance. To fight against these truths of God's Word puts you in a precarious position.

First, no one said anything about generating faith. Who generates faith? This shows your total lack of understanding of faith.
When the Roman Centurion came to Jesus with the request for him to heal his daughter (still at home), Jesus agreed to go. The centurion said he didn't have to come, but just heal her from here (afar). Jesus marveled, and said that he had not seen so great faith in all of Israel. This man had more faith than any other person in Israel, and yet was an unsaved Roman Centurion. How do you account for that. Read on. His servant came and told him his daughter was healed. "The self-same hour the centurion believed." He already had faith that Christ could heal. He had exercised that. Now he "believed" had faith to believe that Christ was the Messiah. Where did that faith come from. Or, as you would wrongly say: Where was it "generated" from?
Faith is innate. Faith is confidence. It is trust. Everyone has faith and everyone puts their faith or trust in someone or something every day. One cannot live without faith.
Are you married? Do you trust (have faith in) your wife? If you don't what kind of relationship do you have, if you can't trust one another?
Do you trust (have faith in) the authorities that are put over you?
You must have faith, and practice faith every day.

Jesus taught that without faith it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God.
Except you be as little children you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
What did the little children have? They had simple, implicit faith. He was not referring to sin natures, was he? He was referring to faith. Just as small children implicitly trust their parents more than any others to provide and protect them, so others should put that simple faith in Christ to save them and give them eternal life as He promised them. It is simple child-like faith that Christ demands. Every person has faith. It is innate. It is something that we use every day. One cannot live a day without faith.
What is important is the object of faith.
Sometimes the object of your faith is your wife.
Concerning salvation the object of your faith needs to be Christ. Without him one cannot be saved. It is Christ that saves (not the wife).
It is the object of faith that is important.

Secondly, as just demonstrated, God doesn't give faith to anyone.
Since faith is confidence or trust, in order to receive the gospel message one must be confident of the gospel message that it is true.
Therefore the Holy Spirit has written:
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
The more we hear the Word of God, the more confident we become of its message. Faith in the gospel message begins with hearing the Word of God.

Third, God doesn't give "faith" to anyone in an unregenerate state. You have stated an untruth. It is a statement with nothing to back it up. Such a statement is nowhere found in the Bible. Might as well call it a lie of the devil propagated by the devil himself. It is not in scripture.

I don't fight against Scriptural truths; I fight for them.

 

[Rippon]

Here is what you said:

If you are a Christian you didn't generate faith to believe in Christ. God gave you the faith to believe because of and through his grace. You were in an unregenerate state and he gave you faith and repentance. To fight against these truths of God's Word puts you in a precarious position.

I had said "last paragraph" but the above is not from that paragraph.

First, no one said anything about generating faith. Who generates faith?

Well, you have frequently claimed that faith is innate. You have said that it comes from you --that God didn't give it to you. You have said it's no different than the "faith" that your dog has in you. Since you think God didn't give you saving faith then it has to be that you think that you manufactured --generated your faith.

This shows your total lack of understanding of faith.

No, your constant denial of biblical faith is a demonstration not only that you have no understanding of the subject but it evidences that you are unteachable.

Faith is innate. Everyone has faith and everyone puts their faith or trust in someone or something every day. One cannot live without faith.

There you go again Jimmy. I have cited 2 Thess. 3:2 a multitude of times for you and you always deny its import.

"And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith."

Every person has faith. It is innate.

You never learn.

God doesn't give faith to anyone.

God doesn't give "faith" to anyone in an unregenerate state. You have stated an untruth.Might as well call it a lie of the devil propagated by the devil himself. It is not in scripture.

And with those strong denials of biblical truths you call yourself a minister of the Gospel?

I don't fight against Scriptural truths; I fight for them.

Yeah, right.:sleep:

 

[DHK]

Well, you have frequently claimed that faith is innate. You have said that it comes from you --that God didn't give it to you. You have said it's no different than the "faith" that your dog has in you. Since you think God didn't give you saving faith then it has to be that you think that you manufactured --generated your faith.

What part of the body are you referring to as a "generator"??
Does God give to every person a "generator"?
If so then maybe the God-given generator, you speak of is where man gets his faith. Yes??

No, your constant denial of biblical faith is a demonstration not only that you have no understanding of the subject but it evidences that you are unteachable.

Yes, I refuse to be taught and/or indoctrinated with biblical error.
I contend for the faith once delivered to the saints; not once delivered to Calvin through Augustine.
Apparently you have little understanding of the subject of faith for you didn't answer most of my post. You avoided it. It seems as if the Roman Centurion completely baffled you.

There you go again Jimmy. I have cited 2 Thess. 3:2 a multitude of times for you and you always deny its import.

"And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith."

Your understanding of this verse is so shallow a snail could race through it.
Look at it in its context:

Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
(2Th 3:1-3)
--"Finally": This chapter opens with a prayer. The first five verse have three requests.
The second request in verse 2 is for deliverance from his enemies--"Unreasonable and wicked men," otherwise known as "men (that) have not faith" (in God).
Learn this about faith: Faith ALWAYS has an object.
Just because Paul didn't spell this out for you in kindergarten A,B,C, language for you doesn't make it untrue. Faith Always has an Object. It wasn't stated. It was obviously implied. All men have not faith in God!
He was talking of the ungodly; his enemies; the unreasonable and wicked men.
The he contrasts those who have not faith (in God) to "But the Lord is faithful..."
The contrast is so obvious that the object of faith did not need to be stated, but only implied. "Faith in God; for, God is faithful."
Faith always requires an object.
All men do have faith, just not faith in God.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Demons have faith. They believe. Do you still believe there are those that don't have faith. Are you still hanging your hat on that one verse when James says that even demons have faith.
As I said, your understanding of faith is so shallow it is pitiful.

And with those strong denials of biblical truths you call yourself a minister of the Gospel?

Let me repeat the Biblical truths that you deny. You affirm the errors of Calvin, but then he is a murderer, not one who follows scripture.

I had said:
Every person has faith. It is innate.

God doesn't give "faith" to anyone in an unregenerate state. You have stated an untruth. Might as well call it a lie of the devil propagated by the devil himself. It is not in scripture.

--Let us consider your Calvinistic propagated lie.
Regeneration and salvation are one and the same. If there is a differentiation to be made it is admitted by most that regeneration and salvation still take place simultaneously.
Having admitted this much the Calvinist both illogically and unbiblically want to split regeneration and salvation apart and squeeze faith between them. They admit they take place simultaneously. But then they want to place faith in between. That is pure nonsense, illogical, and not biblical.

Definition of faith from a secular dictionary:

definition of FAITH
1
[noncount] : strong belief or trust in someone or something
His supporters have accepted his claims with blind/unquestioning faith.
Our faith in the government has been badly shaken by the recent scandals.
His parents have always had faith in him. = His parents have never lost faith in him. [=his parents have always believed that he is a person who deserves to be trusted and who will succeed]

A strong belief or trust in someone or something.

2
[noncount] : belief in the existence of God : strong religious feelings or beliefs
religious faith
Nothing is more important to her than her faith in God.
She says that her faith has given her the courage to deal with this tragedy.
He says he has found faith. [=he has begun to believe in God or has developed strong religious beliefs]

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/definition/faith
Same definition as #1 except the object of faith is "God," instead of "something or someone."
Faith is faith. Only the object changes.
There is no such thing as "saving faith." The phrase is not found in the Bible. Saving faith, so-called is faith that has as its object, "Jesus Christ."

Now the Calvinist wants to put this faith, faith that must be reasoned and thought out, in between regeneration and salvation which take place simultaneously. This grievous error is, of course, an impossibility.

It is apparent they know nothing of faith.

 

[popsthebuilder]

On 7/1/15 Pastor DHK made the following remark:



Though there are several grievous errors in this statement I will first concentrate on the question as to who receives the payment for our sin.

DHK stated, “If I receive his payment I will not go to Hell.”

Scripture teaches sin is a debt which no man can pay.

The Parable of the servant who owed the King ten thousand talents is one such example. (Matt. 18:23-35)

The Parable of the creditor who had two debtors is yet another. (Luke 7:41-43)

The Lord’s Prayer expresses this same truth:

Forgive us our debts. (Matt. 6:12 KJV)

Forgive us our sins. (Luke 11:4 KJV)

Christ paid our sin debt with His holy, pure, innocent blood:

He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. (Romans 4:25 NIV)

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. (1Peter 2:24 ESV)

As our Surety Christ guaranteed full payment of our sin debt:

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. (Heb. 7:22 KJV)

This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. (ESV)

To whom was Christ’s sin payment made?

It was not made to sinners as DHK infers when he stated, “If I receive his payment I will not go to Hell.”

Payment was made by the Son to the Father.

It was the eternal will of God that Jesus satisfy His holy justice by paying the price of our redemption:

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (Heb. 10:7 KJV)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you (1 Peter 1:18-20 KJV)

Christ satisfied/propitiated divine justice, thereby paying our entire sin debt owed God on our behalf:

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, (Romans 3:24-25 KJV)

Therefore, it is not a question of our receiving payment or not, as DHK would teach.

Payment was made in full by the Son and accepted in full by the Father.

The plan of salvation was executed without our counsel or permission.

God doesn’t need the sinner’s permission before He is able to apply the saving graces purchased by Christ.

Nor does God need your permission to give you the gift of eternal life in Christ Jesus.

He didn’t need your permission to bring about your first carnal birth; neither does He need your permission to bring about your second spiritual birth.

Is God evil for freely and sovereignly giving some men necessary saving graces which they do not deserve?

Is Jesus evil for paying the full sin debt of some men and not all men?

Does God owe the gift of eternal life to all men?

Is God the debtor to man in any way, shape or form?

NEXT: For whom was our sin debt paid?

[obscenity edited out]

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[popsthebuilder]

God will not give Faith to the unregenerate.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[popsthebuilder]

It is simultaneous and synonimous with the grasp of our responsability. The Crist consciousness.

Thank you. Please try not to take offence.

Faith in selfless Unity through Good

 

[Iconoclast]

How then did they become saved?

Of course not --but the text clearly does. However, you are in the habit of inverting what passages plainly state.

Of course He does. No one would be regenerate without the fact that the Lord gives faith and repentance.

I commented on Acts 18:27. I had remarked :"By the grace of God they had been given faith to believe." Yet you tell me my words are a "twisted interpretation" akin to J.W. beliefs!

You are losing it.


Let's get this straight. You accused Protestant of "deliberately butchering the Scriptures" when his post was saturated with biblical truth. Then you repeated your "butcher" charge later in your same post (#137).

You told Protestant :"To come to this false conclusion that God gives faith to the unregenerate is quite astounding."

Try to show some integrity Mister Mod.


There are other Arminians who don't butcher the Bible to the extent that you do.


The last paragraph of the post of mine you quoted was utterly bibllical, but you call it a treasure trove of strawmen. That's vintage DHK-speak.

Yes.....Correct again:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

You keep saying all men have faith, it is innate, it is inherent in mankind, but 2 Thess. 3:2 readily refutes.

Here is an example I will use. Take for instance a weed eater...a very vile thing, it causes me to sweat greatly.:laugh: Once it is started, it can do a lot of work. But left alone, it can do nothing. But once you have added the gas, and then pulled the cord, it will start and do a wonderful job. Yet, it also takes someone guiding it along it path(s) or it will not only cut weeds, but also flowers, destroy sapplings by tearing its tender bark, killing it, having the misses ready to throttle you.:laugh:

That is us. We are unable to do anything in our fallen state. As Jesus poignantly stated “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."[Jn. 6:44] He said no one CAN come to Me UNLESS drawn. And those drawn He WILL raise them up. Then back up a few verses when Jesus stated "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."[vs 37] He said all those that God gave Him WILL come to Him. These callings are effectual in nature. These callings also involve faith. It shows that when God does for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose[Phpps. 2:13] and also The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it[1 Thess. 5:24] He will finish what He started in calling sinners to repentance.

Now, where does faith come from? If it comes from within man, you have yourself a quandry, monsieur. God has chosen faith to since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith[Rom. 3:30] and also Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[Gal. 3:8] Then throw in After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.[Isa. 53:11] Faith is what justifies, is what brings justification, so if mankind possesses faith as you say they do, they have justified themselves. Are you really ready to go that far, mon ami?

 

[DHK]

Now, where does faith come from? If it comes from within man, you have yourself a quandry, monsieur. God has chosen faith to since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith[Rom. 3:30]

He gave you that same faith that, once you "have added the gas, and then pulled the cord, it (the weed eater) will start and do a wonderful job."
Faith is faith. This time the object of your faith was in the weed eater, not in Christ. It is the object of faith that is important. You still had faith. It is innate.

and also Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[Gal. 3:8] Then throw in After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.[Isa. 53:11] Faith is what justifies, is what brings justification, so if mankind possesses faith as you say they do, they have justified themselves. Are you really ready to go that far, mon ami?

Faith is what justifies. But notice what faith is.
Your faith is a reasoned belief. It involves a thought process. You thought things out whether or not you realized it. First: Is this thing going to work? Second, only if I put gas into it. Third, I must also pull the cord. Fourth, I hope it has enough "string" to keep whacking the weeds. Fifth, now that it is started my faith is satisfied, however I keep "believing" that it will keep running for as long as I need it.
A person doesn't "believe" or have faith in Christ until, in his mind, he has reasoned out intellectually the claims of Christ in the gospel--that it is true, makes sense, and it is applicable personally to him. The Calvinist somehow says that all of that--that thought process of faith must take place between regeneration and salvation which happen simultaneously. It is like putting a tattoo on your arm and then saying you have to fit faith (or anything else) in between the tattoo and the arm. It doesn't work. Regeneration and salvation are one and the same thing and/or happen simultaneously. They can't be separated. You cannot suddenly put faith in between the two. Faith, as well as the gospel, must precede the two.

 

[SovereignGrace]

He gave you that same faith that, once you "have added the gas, and then pulled the cord, it (the weed eater) will start and do a wonderful job."
Faith is faith. This time the object of your faith was in the weed eater, not in Christ. It is the object of faith that is important. You still had faith. It is innate.

No one chooses to have faith, mon ami. No one. What I meant by that allegory is that when God regenerates a sinner, He also gives faith and repentance(gas and pulling the cord).

Faith is what justifies. But notice what faith is.
Your faith is a reasoned belief. It involves a thought process. You thought things out whether or not you realized it. First: Is this thing going to work? Second, only if I put gas into it. Third, I must also pull the cord. Fourth, I hope it has enough "string" to keep whacking the weeds. Fifth, now that it is started my faith is satisfied, however I keep "believing" that it will keep running for as long as I need it.
A person doesn't "believe" or have faith in Christ until, in his mind, he has reasoned out intellectually the claims of Christ in the gospel--that it is true, makes sense, and it is applicable personally to him. The Calvinist somehow says that all of that--that thought process of faith must take place between regeneration and salvation which happen simultaneously. It is like putting a tattoo on your arm and then saying you have to fit faith (or anything else) in between the tattoo and the arm. It doesn't work. Regeneration and salvation are one and the same thing and/or happen simultaneously. They can't be separated. You cannot suddenly put faith in between the two. Faith, as well as the gospel, must precede the two.

Here is the thing...God has For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you[Rom. 12:3] and furthermore fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.[Heb. 12:2] and then there is But it is the spirit in a person, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding[Job 32:8] then there is When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed[Acts 13:48] and I will end with One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.[Acts 16:14] In all of these it was God first working upon them, causing them to believe.

In Romans 10:17, faith comes by HEARING the word of God. This shows faith is External(from God) and not internal(innate or inherent).

The demons believed, but why were they not saved? God was not drawing them, they had not saving faith.

 

[DHK]

The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.[/I][Acts 16:14] In all of these it was God first working upon them, causing them to believe.

"In all of these." That is simply the way it is written in these few examples. What about all of the times it is now written "in this manner"? They believed. She believed. Going their way, they believed, etc. Does the Bible contradict itself. Or are a few verses pitted against the rest of the Bible in order to come up with a "new doctrine"?

In Romans 10:17, faith comes by HEARING the word of God. This shows faith is External(from God) and not internal(innate or inherent).

--This simply shows that one must be convinced of the gospel message before he believes it, before he can put his faith in it. Faith is not mystical as many Calvinists seem to believe.

The demons believed, but why were they not saved? God was not drawing them, they had not saving faith.

--The entire verse is not expounded here. They believe in the existence of God, as you may believe in the existence of Nero. This was a rebuke to the recipients of James epistle.
The demons do have faith. The object of their faith is Satan himself. He is their leader. They are still deceived into thinking that Satan will still overthrow God.
That they believe in the existence of God is one thing. But the object of their faith (what you would call saving faith) is not in God, but in Satan. Do you see the difference?

 

[Protestant]

Faith is what justifies. But notice what faith is.

It is true all men have some sort of faith, otherwise they would be gripped with fear should they drive, fly, leave their house, etc.

Ron Paul has fear of our monetary system. He does not place faith in the U.S. dollar or its fiscal policies.

Bottom line, the faith which men dead in sins display is not the faith which pleases God.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11:6)

The author of Hebrews is not speaking to the faith of the spiritually dead.

He is speaking to the faith which is a supernatural living faith…..which only God can give.

For in Him is life. (John 1:4; 11:25)

Thus, before a man dead in sins can produce spiritually living faith in Christ, he must be made spiritually alive.

This is exactly what Paul teaches:

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:5-9)

According to Paul, the sequence is as follows:

1. By grace spiritually dead sinners are ‘quickened’ – made spiritually alive; regenerated – with Christ, who is the life.

2. The new supernatural spiritual life then brings forth the fruit of a living, supernatural justifying faith in Christ.

3. The grace of God is the cause of our quickening, our living faith and ultimately our salvation.

It was the mission of Christ to give eternal life to those chosen by the Father. (John 10:28)

Without living faith eternal life is impossible.

This is why living faith must be the gift of the living God to the Elect.

Furthermore, the Spirit of God makes known to the Elect ‘all the things that are freely given us of God.’ (1 Cor. 2:12)

That is why so many of us on this board praise God for freely, unconditionally giving not only Jesus and the gift of eternal life, but also freely and unconditionally giving to us dead men the gift of living, justifying faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

"In all of these." That is simply the way it is written in these few examples. What about all of the times it is now written "in this manner"? They believed. She believed. Going their way, they believed, etc. Does the Bible contradict itself. Or are a few verses pitted against the rest of the Bible in order to come up with a "new doctrine"?

There is no 'new doctrine', as you put it, mon ami. Look at one of the verses you LOVE to quote Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.[Jude 3] True saving faith is delivered(KJV rendering)/entrusted to God's peoples. Then in John 6 Jesus stated Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[vs 29] Man in his fallen state, has no ability to truly believe. They will acknowledge God's existence, but they will never truly trust Him.

--This simply shows that one must be convinced of the gospel message before he believes it, before he can put his faith in it. Faith is not mystical as many Calvinists seem to believe.

Who said anything about mystical faith? Faith is a supernatural exchange between God and a sinner at the point of regeneration. People can hear the gospel their whole entire life and die lost, monsieur. It takes God to unplug their ears, open their heart, open their blinded eyes to hear, accept, and see Him for who He really is.

--The entire verse is not expounded here. They believe in the existence of God, as you may believe in the existence of Nero. This was a rebuke to the recipients of James epistle.
The demons do have faith. The object of their faith is Satan himself. He is their leader. They are still deceived into thinking that Satan will still overthrow God.
That they believe in the existence of God is one thing. But the object of their faith (what you would call saving faith) is not in God, but in Satan. Do you see the difference?

We are at an impasse, it is safe to say, mon ami. If faith is innate, then sinners justify/justified themselves. If the demons truly believed, they would be saved. Peter wrote Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.[1 Pet. 1:21]

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is true all men have some sort of faith, otherwise they would be gripped with fear should they drive, fly, leave their house, etc.

Ron Paul has fear of our monetary system. He does not place faith in the U.S. dollar or its fiscal policies.

Bottom line, the faith which men dead in sins display is not the faith which pleases God.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11:6)

The author of Hebrews is not speaking to the faith of the spiritually dead.

He is speaking to the faith which is a supernatural living faith…..which only God can give.

For in Him is life. (John 1:4; 11:25)

Thus, before a man dead in sins can produce spiritually living faith in Christ, he must be made spiritually alive.

This is exactly what Paul teaches:

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:5-9)

According to Paul, the sequence is as follows:

1. By grace spiritually dead sinners are ‘quickened’ – made spiritually alive; regenerated – with Christ, who is the life.

2. The new supernatural spiritual life then brings forth the fruit of a living, supernatural justifying faith in Christ.

3. The grace of God is the cause of our quickening, our living faith and ultimately our salvation.

It was the mission of Christ to give eternal life to those chosen by the Father. (John 10:28)

Without living faith eternal life is impossible.

This is why living faith must be the gift of the living God to the Elect.

Furthermore, the Spirit of God makes known to the Elect ‘all the things that are freely given us of God.’ (1 Cor. 2:12)

That is why so many of us on this board praise God for freely, unconditionally giving not only Jesus and the gift of eternal life, but also freely and unconditionally giving to us dead men the gift of living, justifying faith.

:thumbs::thumbs:YES!! :thumbs::thumbs:

 

[savedbymercy]

He gave you that same faith that, once you "have added the gas, and then pulled the cord, it (the weed eater) will start and do a wonderful job."
Faith is faith. This time the object of your faith was in the weed eater, not in Christ. It is the object of faith that is important. You still had faith. It is innate.

Faith is what justifies. But notice what faith is.
Your faith is a reasoned belief. It involves a thought process. You thought things out whether or not you realized it. First: Is this thing going to work? Second, only if I put gas into it. Third, I must also pull the cord. Fourth, I hope it has enough "string" to keep whacking the weeds. Fifth, now that it is started my faith is satisfied, however I keep "believing" that it will keep running for as long as I need it.
A person doesn't "believe" or have faith in Christ until, in his mind, he has reasoned out intellectually the claims of Christ in the gospel--that it is true, makes sense, and it is applicable personally to him. The Calvinist somehow says that all of that--that thought process of faith must take place between regeneration and salvation which happen simultaneously. It is like putting a tattoo on your arm and then saying you have to fit faith (or anything else) in between the tattoo and the arm. It doesn't work. Regeneration and salvation are one and the same thing and/or happen simultaneously. They can't be separated. You cannot suddenly put faith in between the two. Faith, as well as the gospel, must precede the two.

To say Faith is what Justified is saying obedience to the Law of God is what Justified, Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23 !

 

[DHK]

To say Faith is what Justified is saying obedience to the Law of God is what Justified, Faith is a work of the Law Matt 23:23 !

Your concept of faith is that it is a work.
Your concept of regeneration is mysticism.

 

[DHK]

There is no 'new doctrine', as you put it, mon ami. Look at one of the verses you LOVE to quote Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.[Jude 3]

In this verse "faith" is the canon of the word of God, the Bible, [The Faith[/b], that set of common beliefs which we all share and contend for, i.e., the truths related to the gospel which the false teachers being spoken about have perverted.

True saving faith is delivered(KJV rendering)/entrusted to God's peoples.

That is not spoken of in Jude. It was the Scriptures being entrusted to God's people--The Faith, God's Word.

Then in John 6 Jesus stated Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[vs 29] Man in his fallen state, has no ability to truly believe. They will acknowledge God's existence, but they will never truly trust Him.

In John 6 Jesus was making a play on words. Their sole and only duty was to believe on him. That is the only so-called "work" that they could possibly do. And yet it is not a work. That is the whole point of that conversation. Faith is not a work.

Who said anything about mystical faith? Faith is a supernatural exchange between God and a sinner at the point of regeneration.

If we lived in the first century you might have a point. Here is a list of the gift of the Spirit in 1Cor.12:
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

The gift of faith was a supernatural gift in the first century. It does not exist any longer. If it is given to the unregenerate then there is no reason to say that the gift of miracles, the gift of healing, the gift of prophecy, the gift of word of knowledge, the gift of word of wisdom, etc. They are all supernatural gifts available to the unregenerate. Does this make sense to you? But this is what you are logically advocating. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate.

Here is the other scenario:
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
--This is the fruit of the Spirit, but are all of these fruit supernatural?
Is love supernatural? Likewise: joy, peace, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance, etc. Are all of these "supernatural" in the strict sense of the word, as "supernatural" ought to be defined. The answer is no. They are not.

If they are supernatural, then God would never give them to the unsaved.
However, if man can display love and patience and most of these at least to some degree in their lives without being saved, then they also can have faith without being regenerated.

People can hear the gospel their whole entire life and die lost, monsieur. It takes God to unplug their ears, open their heart, open their blinded eyes to hear, accept, and see Him for who He really is.

That is not taught in the Bible. The opposite is.
God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and gives them no excuse if they do not repent. When they stand in judgment before him, and asks "Why did you not repent and trust my Son"? They will not have the excuse: "Because I was not forced by Calvin's Irresistible Grace."

We are at an impasse, it is safe to say, mon ami. If faith is innate, then sinners justify/justified themselves. If the demons truly believed, they would be saved. Peter wrote Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.[1 Pet. 1:21]

No, For by grace are you saved through faith. Salvation is of the Lord.
It is through faith, not God's faith.
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Whose faith? Not God's faith.
Abraham was justified by faith, not God's faith. God did not give Abraham the faith by which he was made righteous. The Bible nowhere teaches such concepts. Thus such conclusions that Abraham justified himself are totally unwarranted.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks - good to be back.

Great topic you have here.


The Lord represents God - and the servant who owes the great debt is the lost sinner.

True. The Lord says "I forgave you ALL" and then remarks that the servant was "expected" to forgive others JUST AS he HAD been fully forgiven himself.

As you point out - failure to do so on the part of the servant - resulted in "Forgiveness revoked".

The "Wages of sin is death" Rom 3:23 not simply the first death - but the 2nd death. For in John 11 Christ Himself declares that the first death does not even count.

Yes - unless there is such a thing as forgiveness where you then pay off your own debt. Which I think is a self-conflicted view.

Yes - Luke 12:42-50 degrees of torment rather than "infinite torment for all". Some with many stripes some with fewer. But it is "stripes'' -- torment not "cash" that might be added to someone's wealth.


Christ.

Because "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave"

"the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only - but for the sins of the Whole World" 1 John 2:2.

Yes they will pay their debt in full - in the lake of fire. Every moment of torment "owed" -- paid in full.


No one receives payment in the Gospel - rather God is tortured, God is tormented - on our behalf -- which only "increases" the suffering of God - it does not decrease it.

If someone breaks a lamp in your home - they may "pay you back" and you are "paid" -- they could even "pay you back 10 fold" and ... "you are paid" by every measure.

But let's say someone kills your child -- then hands you ten dollars.. are you "paid in full" ??

What if they gave you a million dollars? -- are you yet "paid in full"??

The damage done to God - the Father via sin - is to take from Him one of his children. To separate them through sin and doom them. What then can someone "pay God" to make it all better -- all "the same" as if He had not lost that child??

The lake of fire is "payment" the way that cancer surgery is "payment". It is necessary suffering to prevent further death of the body.

1 John 2:2 states that the atoning sacrifice on the cross was "for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

But because that "payment" comes in the form of "torturing God more" -- it cannot be viewed as "Hey God -- here is some cold hard cash -- we should be even now".

It is not that sort of payment at all. Because "God does not ENJOY being tortured".

If anything we OWE more in that sort of deal.


This is something many people totally miss.

the whole point in the Bible/Atonement/subtitutionary sacrifice model is not "CASH being paid" and someone being "enriched by the payment" - rather it is "sin debt is suffering and death" and the reason is because in this sort of justice system murder has to have "punishment" associated - so that no more murderers will surface in the kingdom of this universe.

IT is "THAT" sort of "payment" that we are talking about.

So the Gospel provides our payment in the form of "Atonement".

Lev 16 - Atonement.

With Christ as the "Lord's Goat" - the "Sin offering" in that chapter.
AND with Christ as the "High Priest" as Heb 8:1-6 tells us.

Those who accept the Gospel get atonement - those who reject it - get the Lake of Fire - and pay their debt in full.

Hello Bob:

I have carefully reviewed your responses and thank you for answering each point. Although there was one area a bit fuzzy to me, on the whole I understood your POV.

If I may, I wish to address a few key points you made:

(BobRyan: "Those who accept the Gospel get atonement - those who reject it - get the Lake of Fire - and pay their debt in full.")

This is the same exact argument which Pastor DHK made which prompted my writing this thread in the first place: Christ paid your sin debt if you will accept it.

In my response to the Pastor I brought up the point that if a sin debt was paid in full then there was no debt remaining.

DHK and I do agree on some things when it comes to this subject - but not on all.

The key difference being that he agree with you in many ways when it comes to the Atonement - wrapped up and ended at the cross.

I do not agree with that because in Lev 16 "The Day of Atonement" God says it requires BOTH the work of Christ as the "Sin offering" and ALSO the work of Christ as "High Priest" to accomplish the full Bible-level scope of Atonement.

There in Heb 8:1-6 we are told that Christ began his work as High Priest - so the work of "Atonement" continues in heaven - starting off with the "Once for all" sin offering, atoning sacrifice - but then Christ as High Priest applies that blood atonement for those who accept the Gospel - and repent.

Thus "God did not get paid" at the cross "by torturing Himself" -- that makes no sense at all.

Rather God himself PAID in the form of torment, torture, death at the cross. And "Who then is paid"?? nobody!

Nobody stood there at the cross - accepting "payment" from God as though he were satisfying the bank account of someone. Rather God Himself "determines the amount owed" and God Himself is "Tormented" to the exact degree that is "owed" by all the sins of all the world.

In the Bible the model is "Atonement" it is not "A cash register".

What would be good at this point is to discuss just how it is that Atonement work s- and just why it is that having that process still going on in heaven describes the Arminian model -- not a Calvinist one.

Yet you both insist that, in reality, not all sinners’ sin debt is paid in full.

Thus, they must pay their debt in the Lake of Fire.

I insist that SINCE the Atonement process is still going on and only those who accept it - benefit from it, it is not a question any longer of 'how much was God tortured' rather it is a question of the form "Given that God has provided for ALL sin to be paid - what are the conditions that God has given for that payment being applied to my account?"

Thus -- no conflict at all

Do you see the conflict, Bob?

On the one hand, you believe Christ atoned/paid for the sins of all mankind.

And then, on the other hand, you believe Christ did not atone/pay for the sins of all mankind,

As your own statement admits - the model where Christ's high Priestly role is included in the scope of atonement - means that it is not yet complete and therefore sinners may still to this day - accept or reject those conditions and thus benefit or refuse to be benefitted by it.

And in that sense - atonement is ongoing.

But the day will come when it is all "applied" and then it is "ended" - then the condition that your model claims to have ended 2000 years ago -- will in fact be ended.

Happens in Rev 15:8 just before the 7 last plagues.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

resulting in many paying for their sins in the Lake of Fire.

If I follow your argument correctly I believe you are claiming God is the Father of all mankind and is Himself tortured when one of His sinful children are themselves tortured in the Lake of Fire.

Am I correct?

No my argument is that "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself" - on the cross.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost - when one suffers they all suffer.

God is tortured, tormented on the cross -- God is "paying" God is not "Getting paid".

In fact nobody gets paid in that model - because it is not the grocery store - cash register model of "payment" it is the "Atonement model" -- they are very different models.

In the cash box model - someone gets paid in full at the cross - and now that someone is wealthy and satisfied and needs no more consideration for the debt initially owed.

Next, I see you are a consistent Arminian in that you believe man can gain salvation by his free will and also lose salvation by his free will which God leaves intact.

Well it is true that I am a consistent Arminian - but I do not believe that man has a free will that is inherently able to do something. Rather God supernaturally "draws all mankind to himself" John 12:32 - which provides all the supernatural power that depravity would need to - enable choice.

At that point we have the Romans 10 model kicking in.

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Question: Is not that the fundamental reason for the Investigative Judgment? God cannot make a hasty decision as to a person’s salvation until that person dies. For it is possible that person may change his mind prior to death.

No - but you are right that God's sovereign decision to create a free-will based universe drives the need for the Dan 7 - and Romans 2 Gospel Judgment. That Judgment is not for God's benefit - He already knows the outcome. That judgment is for the Dan 7 "Myriads and myriads" who are in attendance. It is so that the Romans 3 point of "God being judged" by his actions and mankind being judged by works in true Matt 7 and Romans 2:6-16 fashion - can take place for those non-God, non-infinite - sinless beings to see the mercy and justice of God in saving some .. but not others.

God is working out "full disclosure" during this 6000 sin experiment because in a free will system you cannot guarantee a sinless universe by 'zapping brains' - you have to do it with "Compelling evidence".

Question: Once a sinner has ‘paid off’ his sin debt in the Lake of Fire why wouldn’t the Lord welcome him into Heaven, purged of his sin? Why must that man be annihilated?

Because "nobody gets paid".

When someone kills your child then they themselves are executed by the state "are you even"?? Are you now "Just as good as if your precious child had never been killed"??

The answer is - no you are not. And having that criminal resurrected and executed ten more times also does not "make you even" make you happy as if your child had never been killed.

Because in that sort of system - you are not talking about a cash register.

God cannot take a wicked person to heaven - without "zapping their brains" and if the "Brain zap" model was the sovereignly chosen model - the zapping Lucifer's brain at the very start would have saved everyone a lot of grief -- including saving God having Himself tortured on the cross.

Clearly that model was not the one sovereignly chosen.

The Free will - and Atonement, and Investigative Judgment Daniel 7 style - is the one we have. It explains everything.

Question: Do you not see the Adventist concept of ‘paying off’ sin debt in the Lake of Fire as a replica of the Roman Catholic doctrine of Purgatory?

The RCC concept of purgatory is that a saved saint on their way to heaven is sent to purgatory to "Purge off - venial punishment" trying to get their character in ship-shape fashion so that they can finally enter heaven all punished-up sinless and perfect.

We SDAs do not claim that the wicked are "getting holier" or "better" or "More loving" or "More Christian" or "Less wicked" by being tortured in the lake of fire. That is not happening at all in their torment. if anything they hate God more for burning them with fire.

A point that many would conclude is the obvious response one might have to such an event.


---

I have to say - I really appreciate your taking the time to discuss these points. They are very important. Many thanks my friend.

in Christ,

Bob