A False Teaching on Christ’s Satisfaction Exposed

[DHK]

You are comparing the calling of God with calling up someone for a cup of java?

In the more detailed account, Andrew went to Simon and "invited" him to come and see the one who is called the Messiah.
In Matthew 4:19, It simply says: Jesus said unto them, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." (an invitation).
And they arose, left all and followed him. There was nor Irresistible Grace. They went and had a looong cup of coffee.

Jesus did not kindly ask them, "Hey, would you guys like to come and follow Me?

As demonstrated, yes he did.

I will give you power to raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, give hearing to the deaf, and after all of that you will be slayed for My name's sake. Doesn't that just fill peachy keen?"

That came well after he had called them all. Much time had past since then.

He told them to "get up and follow Me and I will make you fishers of men."

An invitation, that is all. It was their choice. There was no Irresistible Grace. They could have stayed back fishing with their father.
In fact after the resurrection Peter decides to go back fishing.

Jesus never asked Saul's permission to shine that Light to him, causing him to fall off his horse. Jesus told Saul what needed to be done, and he did it.

This is the only account that was supernatural. God had a special reason for it.

 

[Iconoclast]

For any who would like to learn more of this;

http://www.monergism.com/topics/doctrines-grace/irresistible-grace-effectual-calling

The Bible "locates unbelief in the total inability of sinners to effect their own liberation from the bondage of the will, and ... locate faith in the unconditional election, redemption, and effectual calling of the triune God alone. God gives not only sufficient grace (that is, enough grace to enable sinners to respond positively to God if they choose to do so), but efficient grace (that is, regeneration as well as faith and repentance as gifts)."
- Michael Horton The Christian Faith, pg. 562

Regeneration is a secret act of God in which he imparts new spiritual life to us. As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God that Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God that Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive.

Sometimes the term irresistible grace is used in this connection. It refers to the fact that God effectively calls people and also gives them regeneration, and both actions guarantee that we will respond in saving faith. The term irresistible grace is subject to misunderstanding, however, since it seems to imply that people do not make a voluntary choice in responding to the gospel - a wrong idea, and a wrong understanding of the term irresistible grace. The term does preserve something valuable, however, because it indicates that God's work reaches into our hearts to bring about a response that is absolutely certain - even tough we respond voluntarily.

here is CHS;

Now, in considering this solemn subject, let me remark that there are two kinds of callings mentioned in the Word of God. The first is the general call, which is in the gospel sincerely given to everyone that heareth the word. The duty of the minister is to call souls to Christ, he is to make no distinction whatever—"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." The trumpet of the gospel sounds aloud to every man in our congregations—"Ho, everyone that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." "Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man" (Prov. 8:4). This call is sincere on God's part; but man by nature is so opposed to God, that this call is never effectual, for man disregards it, turns his back upon it, and goes his way, caring for none of these things.


But mark, although this call be rejected, man is without excuse in the rejection; the universal call has in it such authority, that the man who will not obey it shall be without excuse in the day of judgment. When thou art commanded to believe and repent, when thou art exhorted to flee from the wrath to come, the sin lies on thy own head if thou dost despise the exhortation, and reject the commandment.


And this solemn text drops an awful warning: "How shall ye escape, if ye neglect so great salvation." But I repeat it, this universal call is rejected by man; it is a call, but it is not a attended with divine force and energy of the Holy Spirit in such a degree as to make it an unconquerable call, consequently men perish, even though they have the universal call of the gospel ringing in their ears. The bell of God's house rings every day, sinners hear it, but they put their fingers in their ears, and go their way, one to his farm, and another to his merchandise, and though they are bidden and are called to the wedding (Luke 14:16,17,18), yet they will not come, and by not coming they incur God's wrath, and he declareth of such,—"None of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper" (Luke 14:24).


The call of our text is of a different kind; it is not a universal call, it is a special, particular, personal, discriminating, efficacious,
unconquerable, call. This call is sent to the predestinated, and to them only; they by grace hear the call, obey it, and receive it. These are they who can now say, "Draw us, and we will run after thee."

 

[DHK]

Why yes it is. :thumbsup:

This is where you run of the skids, monsieur. No one chooses to believe, no one chooses to have faith or reject it. People either have faith...saving faith...or they do not. Here are some verses you guys misapply.

Joshua did; his ancestors didn't.
Joshua did; his generation did, the generation after him did.

But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”[Jos. 24:15] Boy that sure looks like an appealing choice, mon ami. "If serving the Lord seems undesirable to you", boy that sure looks like a free will choice. If serving the Lord seemed undesirable to me, I sure would not serve Him. Would you?

See above.
Joshua did; his ancestors didn't.
Joshua did; his generation did, the generation after him did.

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.[Rev. 22:17] Here is another verse where the call is going out to those who are thirsty and who can gear the Spirit and Bride say 'Come!' Those who are not thirsty will never come and drink and those who do not drink will never have "Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[Jn 7:38]

And yet the same offer was given to the woman at the well. She did drink.
Many of Samaria did drink because of her testimony.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
--They made the choice. God or Christ never forced them. There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace. The water of life was offered them. Many of them chose to drink of it.

Those who drink of this water will "but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”[Jn 4:13b] The Spirit and Bride saying 'Come!' is not a questionnaire but a command. Those who hear and are thirsty will come and be filled.

As it was an invitation in John 4 so it is in John 7, and the same invitation to come is given in Mat.11:28.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
--One of most well-known invitations of the Bible. "Come..."

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.[Jn 3:16] Here is a verse that should not cause any problem, but it does. God so loved the world(the encompassing globe and not every single person who ever lived) that He sent His Son to die for those who believe. If He loved everybody the same, then there is no special love for His sheep. Where is this love as He is turning them over into the lake of fire? Where is His love while He is “I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing. It was for me the day of vengeance; the year for me to redeem had come."?Isa 63:3,4] Yes God is love. But who are those that truly love Him in a reciprocated fashion? It is those who We love because he first loved us.[1 Jn 4:19] Why do they love Him? Because it is thusly Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Those who love God are those that a) God has borne them of His love b) God first loved them. Now, if God truly loved everybody the same, then there would be none lost. Because if we love God we “If you love me, keep my commands."[Jn 14:15]

You cannot pit one verse against another and expect your theology to be consistent. "The Day of God's Wrath," The Day of God's Redemption," both speak of a specific time in history which is yet to come. Yes you do not believe in the rapture, I know that. But I do. And the day of His Wrath follows that when the believers are not present and God's wrath is poured out on this earth against all the ungodly at that time. It is Daniels 70th Week, "The Time Of Jacob's Trouble," and near the end of that time "all Israel shall be saved," the Day of their Redemption." It is a reference to the Jews that will take place right before He comes and sets up his Millennial Kingdom.

God loves everyone equally the same. There is no one on this earth that he loves more than anyone else. He died for all. There is no one that he would reject from coming to him.

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[Rom. 8:28-30] All of this is via God's working in sinners lives, monsieur.

Yes, all who love him are all who believe in his name. We don't know who those "all" are and it very presumptuous to say that we know who the elect are. That is the problem with Calvinism. They pretend to know the elect, when the Bible clearly says: "whosoever will, may come." Then God will gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. Who are they? All the whosoevers, those that have believed.

He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.[Tit. 3:5] He saved us by His mercy. Also read Romans 9:16.

He saved us because we took or didn't refuse the gift of his salvation, so precious a gift that he shed his blood on our behalf. Others rejected it.

He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.[2 Tim. 1:9] Again, it was not because of anything we did, but what He did for us.

DID?? Faith is not a work. Those who believed he accepted.

Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.[John 1:12,13] Again, nothing that man did, but what God did for man.

Verse 12 precedes verse 13. He gave the right or authority to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Yes, there are many verses supporting irresistible grace if you are truly willing to look for them.

I disagree.

I would like you to look at this link, (I just received it today), and see what you think.
http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/jeff-lyle/when-we-know-more-than-we-believe.html

 

[Yeshua1]

And yet the same offer was given to the woman at the well. She did drink.
Many of Samaria did drink because of her testimony.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
--They made the choice. God or Christ never forced them. There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace. The water of life was offered them. Many of them chose to drink of it.

As it was an invitation in John 4 so it is in John 7, and the same invitation to come is given in Mat.11:28.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
--One of most well-known invitations of the Bible. "Come..."


You cannot pit one verse against another and expect your theology to be consistent. "The Day of God's Wrath," The Day of God's Redemption," both speak of a specific time in history which is yet to come. Yes you do not believe in the rapture, I know that. But I do. And the day of His Wrath follows that when the believers are not present and God's wrath is poured out on this earth against all the ungodly at that time. It is Daniels 70th Week, "The Time Of Jacob's Trouble," and near the end of that time "all Israel shall be saved," the Day of their Redemption." It is a reference to the Jews that will take place right before He comes and sets up his Millennial Kingdom.

God loves everyone equally the same. There is no one on this earth that he loves more than anyone else. He died for all. There is no one that he would reject from coming to him.

Yes, all who love him are all who believe in his name. We don't know who those "all" are and it very presumptuous to say that we know who the elect are. That is the problem with Calvinism. They pretend to know the elect, when the Bible clearly says: "whosoever will, may come." Then God will gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. Who are they? All the whosoevers, those that have believed.


He saved us because we took or didn't refuse the gift of his salvation, so precious a gift that he shed his blood on our behalf. Others rejected it.


DID?? Faith is not a work. Those who believed he accepted.


Verse 12 precedes verse 13. He gave the right or authority to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

I disagree.

I would like you to look at this link, (I just received it today), and see what you think.
http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/jeff-lyle/when-we-know-more-than-we-believe.html

an you point out ONE siyuation from the Bible when one who wasa real believer in Yahweh resisted fully Grace of God , and turned back unto loss of eternal life and destruction?

For we do not say that sinners cannot resist His grace and calling, but that those to get saved by him cannot!

 

[DHK]

an you point out ONE siyuation from the Bible when one who wasa real believer in Yahweh resisted fully Grace of God , and turned back unto loss of eternal life and destruction?

For we do not say that sinners cannot resist His grace and calling, but that those to get saved by him cannot!

"we do not say that sinners cannot resist His grace and calling, but that those to get saved by him cannot!"

You do realize what a contradiction that is, don't you?
--They can resist his calling and they do. If they do get saved it is by their choice, not by His force. If they don't get saved it is by their choice, not by His force. Your picture of God is that of a monster, the author of evil.

 

[Protestant]

And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. (Matt. 4:19)

An invitation, that is all. It was their choice. There was no Irresistible Grace. They could have stayed back fishing with their father.

‘Follow me’ was not an invitation. It was a command, proven by its imperative mood.

When Christ, the Good Shepherd, gives a command to His sheep, His Elect, they not only hear His voice, they obey.

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

When Christ declares “I will,” He is declaring His omnipotence in bringing His eternal will of purpose infallibly to pass.

He did not say, “I will, if you will.”

As Christians we now understand that our Lord, in eternity, had chosen us for salvation.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, (John 15:16)

We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4)

Not our will, but His will was done by saving us when we were powerless and hopeless. (Eph. 2:12)

His will is presently being done here on earth as it is in Heaven.

By God’s grace, all true Christians are called to be fishers of men.

And they will obey Him.

 

[DHK]

And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. (Matt. 4:19)
Semantics.
"Come, have a cup of coffee with me."
You still have choice. You can refuse my "demand," or "urgent invitation."
There, in no possible way is any "irresistible grace." The choice is all yours.

‘Follow me’ was not an invitation. It was a command, proven by its imperative mood.

Imperative mood or not. They had a choice. They were not forced.

When Christ, the Good Shepherd, gives a command to His sheep, His Elect, they not only hear His voice, they obey.

Balderdash. Are you sinless. Read. 1John 1:8,10 before you answer.

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.”

A general statement, not an absolute. You do remember the one that went astray, don't you?

When Christ declares “I will,” He is declaring His omnipotence in bringing His eternal will of purpose infallibly to pass.

I will??? I will give them eternal life. Yes, he he fulfills his promise. He doesn't force salvation on anyone.

He did not say, “I will, if you will.”

The passage doesn't give that portion of human responsibility; it assumes it.
There is always human responsibility involved. You posts are amazing in that you, choosing a name like "Protestant" basically have thrown "sola fide" out the window.

As Christians we now understand that our Lord, in eternity, had chosen us for salvation.

Not if we reject it. The Lord knows ahead of time which we will do.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, (John 15:16)

He was speaking to his disciples. He chose them. Read Mat.4:19.

We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4)

Based on his foreknowledge of what we do. He also foreknew what Judas Iscariot would do, and chose him to be one of the original 12 as well.

Not our will, but His will was done by saving us when we were powerless and hopeless. (Eph. 2:12)

Zaccheus was not powerless and helpless. He chose to follow Christ. And then he chose to give back half of his goods. No one forced him.

His will is presently being done here on earth as it is in Heaven.

Foolishness! That is a prayer--a model prayer that the disciples should base their prayers after, not recite.
--People should be wise and not recite that prayer, and not believe that it is being accomplished as it is written for it is written, especially the part you quoted.
"May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
How is his will done in heaven?
Perfectly, immediately, without complaint, without hesitation, purposefully, from "the heart" so to speak, always with praise, etc.
--Far from that standard is his will accomplished on earth. We do not measure up to the standard that the angels in heaven do.

By God’s grace, all true Christians are called to be fishers of men.

And they will obey Him.

But they are not. There are many Christians that have never picked up "a fishing rod," sad but true. In fact there are some on this board that don't believe they are "called to fish." They don't believe the "Great Commission" has any relevance to this day and age, but that all was fulfilled in the first century. They have taken Calvinism to its extreme. All is predetermined by God, why witness to anyone. It ends up in Preterism.

 

[Protestant]

To which view do you hold?

A. The Pelagian View

Christ died (atoned) for all men on the condition of faith.

All men have faith.

Therefore, Christ died for all men.

OR

B. The Arminian View

Christ died (atoned) for all men on the condition of faith.

But not all men have faith.

Therefore, Christ died for all men anyway.

OR

C. The Biblical View

Christ died (atoned) for all men who have faith.

But not all men have faith.

Therefore, Christ did not die for them.

 

[Protestant]

And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. (Matt. 4:19)

He was speaking to his disciples. He chose them. Read Mat.4:19.

All Christ's disciples are first chosen for salvation.

Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians who were also chosen for salvation, as were the Ephesians and as are all Elect pre-cross and post-cross.

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

All Christians are then given work assignments as members of His Body.

God chooses, Christ purchases, the Spirit regenerates.

He also foreknew what Judas Iscariot would do, and chose him to be one of the original 12 as well.

Why would Jesus choose a devil as one of the 12?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The King of kings and Lord of lords bows in submission to the choices Hank makes without interference so that Hank’s sovereign will may be free of all encumbrances, including the sovereign will of God.

But Scripture says otherwise.

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. (Psalm 115:3)

Apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (Proverbs 21:1)

Brother Protestant,

Those verses you quoted above are good verses proving God predestinated whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[DHK]

A. The Pelagian View

Christ died (atoned) for all men on the condition of faith.

All men have faith.

Therefore, Christ died for all men.

OR

B. The Arminian View

Christ died (atoned) for all men on the condition of faith.

But not all men have faith.

Therefore, Christ died for all men anyway.

OR

C. The Biblical View

Christ died (atoned) for all men who have faith.

But not all men have faith.

Therefore, Christ did not die for them.

The first two views are far to simplistic.
For example, The RCC's believe in: the virgin birth, the deity of Christ, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, such as we Baptists do. Therefore we all must be of the same faith.

The basic Calvinist view is not a Biblical view and that is the last view presented--also very simplistic.
You might as well say: This is from Calvin. Calvin got it from Augustine. Augustine was a Roman Catholic. Therefore All Calvinists are Roman Catholics.

 

[Protestant]

The first two views are far to simplistic.

Simplistic or Simply what many on this board believe?

A. The Pelagian View

Christ died (atoned) for all men on the condition of faith.

All men have faith.

Therefore, Christ died for all men.

You have stated, “But Christ came into this world and paid that penalty for me, you, and all mankind.” (quoted in the OP)

You believe Christ died (atoned) for all men.

That is exactly what the conclusion states.

You have also stated, “if I accept the payment I will not go to Hell,” meaning “if I believe” I will not go to Hell. (quoted in the OP)

Thus, you have added the conditional clause, “if.”

That is exactly what the premise says:

“Christ died for all men on the condition of faith,” i.e. if they believe.

Furthermore, you are on record for stating, “all men have faith.”

That is the second premise which allows you to reach the conclusion:

“Therefore, Christ died for all men.”

But John 3:16 disagrees with your logic.

We are told God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (to die) that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

From this divine declaration we surmise:

Jesus died for believers.

Jesus did not die for unbelievers.

We know this because His death merited eternal life for believers.

His death did not merit eternal life for unbelievers.

Therefore, the world Jesus died for was the world of believers.

Therefore, your conclusion that Christ died for all men is incorrect.

Christ died for all believers.

 

[DHK]

You have stated, “But Christ came into this world and paid that penalty for me, you, and all mankind.” (quoted in the OP)

You believe Christ died (atoned) for all men.

That is exactly what the conclusion states.

You have also stated, “if I accept the payment I will not go to Hell,” meaning “if I believe” I will not go to Hell. (quoted in the OP)

Thus, you have added the conditional clause, “if.”

That is exactly what the premise says:

“Christ died for all men on the condition of faith,” i.e. if they believe.

Furthermore, you are on record for stating, “all men have faith.”

That is the second premise which allows you to reach the conclusion:

“Therefore, Christ died for all men.”

But John 3:16 disagrees with your logic.

No, I don't believe it does.

We are told God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (to die) that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

From this divine declaration we surmise:

Jesus died for believers.

Jesus did not die for unbelievers.

God so loved the world: believers and unbeliever inhabit this world--more unbelievers than believers; He died for us all. Why? That whosoever believes in him should have eternal life. He died for the unsaved that the unsaved world might believe and have life.

We know this because His death merited eternal life for believers.

I thought you believed in eternal security.
Otherwise he died for unbelievers that they might believe and have eternal life.

His death did not merit eternal life for unbelievers.

His death did not merit eternal life for those that already have it.

Therefore, the world Jesus died for was the world of believers.

Jesus died not for the righteous but for those in need of a physician, or the unrighteous.

Therefore, your conclusion that Christ died for all men is incorrect.

Christ died for all believers.

He died for all, for at one time or another, all were unsaved and in need of a Savior.

 

[Protestant]

He died for all, for at one time or another, all were unsaved and in need of a Savior.

You and I understand that salvation is given only to those who believe before their death.

There is no controversy as to whom John 3:16 is referencing: those who had not yet died in their sins.

You begin your premise with an absolute: Christ died for all.

In your premise you do not allow for any exceptions.

‘All’ you interpret to mean every person ever born.

You then place a hypothetical condition on the absolute: “under the condition that if a man believes (before he dies) then he has everlasting life.”

That is a false deduction.

You cannot draw an absolute from a hypothetical.

Nor is that what John 3:16 states.

The purpose of Christ’s death -- to give eternal life to those who believe -- says nothing about those who die in unbelief.

Nor does John 3:16 place the conditional “if’ in the verse.

It does, however, reference those who die as believers: they have everlasting life.

Christ died that whosoever believeth should have everlasting life.

The verse does not say ‘Christ died if whosoever believeth should have everlasting life.'

Christ’s death was for the sole purpose of giving eternal life.

To whom is it given?

To those who believe before they die.

Did Christ know who would believe before they died?

Of course, He did.

His Father chose them before they were born and gave them to Him.

The Father chose them out of the world of men.

He loved them all and will bless them all with all spiritual blessings (even the blessing of Holy Ghost produced living faith) in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Christ prayed for them all.

Christ died for them all.

Christ intercedes for them all.

They all will believe.

And they all will have everlasting life.

Christ will lose none the Father gave Him.

Christ died for the world of believers.

 

[DHK]

You and I understand that salvation is given only to those who believe before their death.

There is no controversy as to whom John 3:16 is referencing: those who had not yet died in their sins.

You begin your premise with an absolute: Christ died for all.

In your premise you do not allow for any exceptions.

It has always been the same.
Christ died for all but his death (sacrifice) is only efficacious to those that believe. I have always said that.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In the more detailed account, Andrew went to Simon and "invited" him to come and see the one who is called the Messiah.
In Matthew 4:19, It simply says: Jesus said unto them, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." (an invitation).
And they arose, left all and followed him. There was nor Irresistible Grace. They went and had a looong cup of coffee.

There were no questions just telling them to 'follow Me'.

As demonstrated, yes he did.

Uhhhh, no He did not.

That came well after he had called them all. Much time had past since then.

Yes, but still He called them and did not merely invite them.

An invitation, that is all. It was their choice. There was no Irresistible Grace. They could have stayed back fishing with their father.
In fact after the resurrection Peter decides to go back fishing.

And if they refused? He would then go and search 'high and low' searching for willing people? You have given man, sinful man, way more power than God, mon ami. :tear:

This is the only account that was supernatural. God had a special reason for it.

There was also John the Baptist being filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb. But yes, those were extremely rare examples.

 

[SovereignGrace]

And yet the same offer was given to the woman at the well. She did drink.
Many of Samaria did drink because of her testimony.
Joh 4:41 And many more believed because of his own word;
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

Yes she did drink. :thumbsup: Why? Because she was thirsty. You can see that when she first sees Jesus setting on Jacob's well, she thinks He is just another Jew, someone of no significance. As this story opens up, you can see Jesus showing her who He truly was, the Son of Man/Son of God. She starts out by saying, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” She did not know Him as the prophesied Messiah. Jesus then replies “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” Then she shows she still does not know who He was when she said Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?” It was after Jesus confronted her about her lifestyle she states “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet." Then after some more conversing with her He states “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.” It was then that she left her water pot and told them about Jesus. It was through her testimony and then also Jesus' that many believed. It was through the working of God that they believed, and not some self-indwelt faith they possessed.

--They made the choice. God or Christ never forced them. There is no such thing as Irresistible Grace. The water of life was offered them. Many of them chose to drink of it.

Please stop with this forced salvation, puppets, robots, mon ami. When you guys start running out of scriptural support, these words get thrown into our faces as if we believe that way.

As it was an invitation in John 4 so it is in John 7, and the same invitation to come is given in Mat.11:28.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
--One of most well-known invitations of the Bible. "Come..."

That invite, that command is given to those who are 'heavy ladened, and who labour.' Too many are never burdened by their sins, monsieur, the relish in them.

You cannot pit one verse against another and expect your theology to be consistent. "The Day of God's Wrath," The Day of God's Redemption," both speak of a specific time in history which is yet to come. Yes you do not believe in the rapture, I know that. But I do. And the day of His Wrath follows that when the believers are not present and God's wrath is poured out on this earth against all the ungodly at that time. It is Daniels 70th Week, "The Time Of Jacob's Trouble," and near the end of that time "all Israel shall be saved," the Day of their Redemption." It is a reference to the Jews that will take place right before He comes and sets up his Millennial Kingdom.

All I was showing you was that if God loved them, why then did He trample them under His feet as a winepress. God hates those who work iniquity, and not just the iniquity. You have God loving them and then tossing them into the lake of fire. That sure sounds like love to me.

God loves everyone equally the same. There is no one on this earth that he loves more than anyone else. He died for all. There is no one that he would reject from coming to him.

Jacob and Esau.

Yes, all who love him are all who believe in his name. We don't know who those "all" are and it very presumptuous to say that we know who the elect are. That is the problem with Calvinism. They pretend to know the elect, when the Bible clearly says: "whosoever will, may come." Then God will gather his elect from the four corners of the earth. Who are they? All the whosoevers, those that have believed.

We do not know who the elect are, and I have never seen one post where someone said they did. Who did? Post it for all to see. We call upon all, not knowing a sheep from a goat.

He saved us because we took or didn't refuse the gift of his salvation, so precious a gift that he shed his blood on our behalf. Others rejected it.

So, no matter how many people He sent their way, no matter how many people told them to 'be reconciled to God', no matter how many times God 'knocked at their heart's door', until they do something, He can not save them. That is a very sad theology. God, who spoke this world into existence, can not overcome a dead in their sins sinner's free will?

DID?? Faith is not a work. Those who believed he accepted.

Never said faith is a work. Wrong guy.

Verse 12 precedes verse 13. He gave the right or authority to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name.

They were His and that is why they became His. He chose them from the creation of the world, and accomplished them acceptance in the Beloved in time.

I disagree.

You would.

I would like you to look at this link, (I just received it today), and see what you think.
http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/jeff-lyle/when-we-know-more-than-we-believe.html

I will when I get time.

 

[SovereignGrace]

A general statement, not an absolute.

My eyes can not believe what a professed Christian just typed in the above! Whose voice do they hear? It is an absolute biblical fact that His sheep will hear His voice. Whose voice did you hear? I do not mean a literal voice, but a drawing from within you? I knew it was God seeking me out, and finding me in my lost condition.

This was/is an absolute.

You do remember the one that went astray, don't you?

We, those He chose, were His. We were His sheep that went astray in Adam. Not one of them will die in the For the Lord’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance. In a desert land he found him, in a barren and howling waste. He shielded him and cared for him; he guarded him as the apple of his eye, like an eagle that stirs up its nest and hovers over its young, that spreads its wings to catch them and carries them aloft. The Lord alone led him; no foreign god was with him. He made him ride on the heights of the land and fed him with the fruit of the fields. He nourished him with honey from the rock, and with oil from the flinty crag, with curds and milk from herd and flock and with fattened lambs and goats, with choice rams of Bashan and the finest kernels of wheat. You drank the foaming blood of the grape.[Deut. 32:9-14] Then in Luke 15 we can read where Jesus says ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’[vs 6b] He searches and finds His sheep.


She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”[Matt. 1:21] He WILL save His people, His sheep, and not try to, but WILL save them, monsieur.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

You have stated that God loves all men the same, and any properly exegeted verse will not bear that fruit, mon ami.


We can read Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.[1 Jn 4:7-10] Now, you can see that our source of loving God comes from God and not us. Why did the Romanist state "And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us."?[Rom. 5:5] If we had the capacity, the ability, the functionality to love God, then why is His love poured out into our hearts, and why we are born of that love? We, the carnal, sinful, unregenerate sinner hates God. We are unable to understand His word as Paul wrote The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.[1 cor. 2:14] Paul then reiterates that thought to the church at Rome by stating The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[Rom. 8:7]

The only ones who are truly able to biblically love God are those who have been given that love from Him. You and I hated Him while we were sinners. As sinners we were His enemies and yet we can see that or if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life![Rom. 5:10] We would not This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.[John 3:19-21]

Those who truly love God are those who have been born of that love via the regenerative power of the Spirit. And God shows them His love by birthing them by His Spirit, drawing them unto Himself as a as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings.

 

[Rebel]

How often we have heard our adversaries claim our biblical perspective makes mankind nothing but puppets controlled by the Great Heavenly Puppeteer.

Hank Hanegraaff, the self-proclaimed ‘Bible Answer Man,’ has written the following statement in his best seller, The Complete Bible Answer Book.

(If you have a Bible question, Hank will give you the complete answer. His knowledge and understanding of spiritual issues knows no bounds.)



Hank is an in-your-face Pelagian.

His god is his free will which is sovereign over his life.

The King of kings and Lord of lords bows in submission to the choices Hank makes without interference so that Hank’s sovereign will may be free of all encumbrances, including the sovereign will of God.

But Scripture says otherwise.

A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. (Proverbs 16:9)

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. (Psalm 115:3)

Apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5)

The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will. (Proverbs 21:1)

Those of us who believe in God’s sovereign election of grace are extremely humbled and eternally grateful that our God has graciously and mercifully pulled us out of the fires of destruction to which we were blindly and willingly headed.

We are ever so mindful that those who worship the idol of their free will may well be among those whom God has passed by, leaving them with freedom from His saving graces in Christ, allowing them to haplessly continue on the road to destruction where they are blindly and willingly headed.

And your idol is fatalistic determinism. You'd better do all you can to make sure you are among the elect. Considering what you said in your last paragraph, you'd better be extra diligent in seeking to assure yourself of it because you are plainly lacking in the fruits of the Spirit. BTW, how does it feel to know your views are only 500 years old, while the church which has always taught opposite to you is 2000 years old? Does that make you question your fatalistic determinism doctrine? It should.